Elementary school day could get longer in Leominster - Sentinel...

local teacher wrote:

"The best teacher cannot teach somebody who does not want to learn!"
Thank you for that. It is so refreshing to have someone notice that.
and for all you "Better Teacher" comments.....I truly feel sorry for my hard working students every day. They have to put up with the unmotiviated, undisciplined, distruptive student that is in every class. Learning does not stop at 2:30 when the last bell rings. Students need to be invested in thier own education. Parents need to support thier children. Help them with homework (that is the point of homework you know. If you do it WITH your child, it reinforces learning AND it gets completed in record time) And if you dont have time to help your child with homework, and participate in school related functions with them, well - perhaps that is a consequence of being a parent you should have thought of before having children. They need your space, your time, your love, and your SUPPORT. I promise - the more time you give your kids at home - the better they will do in school. Regardless of which teacher they have that year. Too bad Pres. Bush could'nt put in a requirement or two on parents for NCLB.

It is insane that you would reccomend that someone consider not having children if they are not willing to help them with their homework. A good parent would not let their children go to a public school and be subjected to the lowest common denominator environment there. Don't even get me started on the value of homework, it is almost common knowledge that most homework is worthless busy work and of no value to anyone.

MARK: Such bitter words, where to begin! "Most students correctly detrermine the value of the modern curriculum, it is not only worthless, but it damages you for life"...sounds like you don't particularly like having well rounded educated individuals around you. Do you find them "threatening" to you and/or your future?

"A good parent would not let their children go to a public school and be subjected to the lowest common denominator environment there."" Did you ever give any thought to the fact that sending them to a private school also subjects them to the "lowest common denominator environment there" as well. You don't have to be brilliant to go to private school, but you do have to pay. Some people send their kids to private school because they just "don't fit in" in public school. They are not brilliant, just "odd" and the kids do not accept them well. There are many students from LHS and FHS that have gone on to Harvard, MIT, Columbia, RPI, Cornell, Brandeis, and Yale to mention a few. Public school does not "ruin" our children!

"it is almost common knowledge that most homework is worthless busy work and of no value to anyone." Sounds like you think practicing a newly learned skill is a waste of time. Maybe committing something to memory or having a skill is your forte. Also sounds like you have parents that never helped you when you really needed it to finish your homework, or explain things to you.

"we need to offer students the correct curriculum whose self evident intrinsic worth will be visable to all." Sounds like you are pushing for trade schools so everybody learns a "trade" by the end of the 12th grade. You appear to think that K-12 should be a 'complete' education, rather than just an educational base to launch further learning from.

Let me guess...YOU never did well in public school, probably picked on by your classmates for maybe being a little slower than the rest of the class, and you never learned a trade when you finished your education at the end of the 12th grade...maybe even dropping out of school when you reached 16 because you hated it so much. You think "education" is way over rated, blaming your teachers for not "teaching you" when it was YOU that was "unteachable" because you thought learning was "intolerable to humans", and Special-Ed was not widely practiced in your rural corn-picking town. You feel public education failed you because you stumble around in a minimum wage job without any prospects for it ever getting better. Ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, you are right were you were always meant to be, and it is not the blame of anybody else?

My thoughts...your mileage may vary! Note. "detrermine" and "visable" are your spelling errors, not mine.

MARK: above should read "Maybe committing something to memory or having a skill is your NOT your forte"

Paul from Leominster wrote:

MARK: above should read "Maybe committing something to memory or having a skill is your NOT your forte"

Is that how it should read?
Public school children go to good schools?
I have trouble committing things to memory?
My parents didn’t help me or explain things to me?
I think students should learn a trade, rather than a base for further learning?
I never did well in public school?
I was picked on by the other students?
I am slower than the rest?
I dropped out at 16 because I hated it so much?
“You think "education" is way over rated, blaming your teachers for not "teaching you" when it was YOU that was "unteachable" because you thought learning was "intolerable to humans", and Special-Ed was not widely practiced in your rural corn-picking town. You feel public education failed you because you stumble around in a minimum wage job without any prospects for it ever getting better. Ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, you are right were you were always meant to be, and it is not the blame of anybody else?”(too many ad homonym attacks to list separately, I had to cut and paste.”

Paul, all that about me from my post and you also pointed out my spelling errors? I think you have what it takes to be an excellent teacher, and I can only imagine how you would motivate your students.
You have said nothing of the argument I put forward and have explained my points away by giving me a horoscope reading. Do you think you made a strong argument to prove anything I mentioned or was that really just a projection from an atrophied intellect falsely proud of a public education.
If you are not a teacher, I am sure teachers everywhere would be proud that you put me in my place and described why I said what I said by insulting me, that is what most teachers are best at, avoiding the issue while blaming students and their families for the failures of public education. Do you really think public education is in good shape? Do you really think it provides a service to families in America? Do you really think the schools are producing self governing citizens that have cultivated their intellects by mastering ethics, the pursuit of truth and beauty using the highest quality sources available? If you do, than your silly comments about me are really much more about you. If you really mistake what you wrote for logical I really do fear for those around you. Are you a positive influence on those around you? Or are you controlling and only think yourself positive? I can see, no matter what you truly are, you have an excellent way of justifying your position without being concerned with the quality of your justifications. You are most definitely a product of a system that has been degrading for over 150 years.
I can’t imagine what asinine things you will invent from my above statements, but I can give you your horoscope too, what ever you say, it wont have anything to do with the issues, it will be an attack on the person who would dare to say something that offends your post modern sensibilities.(or the bluntness of them)
Paul I admit to not being a good speller, but those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. You are a pedent.

Mark: Do you mean "PEDANT" with an "A"? I could not find "pedent" listed in the dictionary.

pparently you can't read either. I took some of your direct quotes and commented on them. Are you incapable of understanding what I wrote?

"Do you really think public education is in good shape?"...I apparently think it is in better shape than you do! Wasn't that already self evident to you, or are you just blowing off steam again? Is it in great shape...NO... but in much better shape than you make it appear to be. You are probably a janitor at a private school and are worried about job protection.

"Do you really think it provides a service to families in America?" Yes, again an obvious observation to anybody with half a brain!

"Do you really think the schools are producing self governing citizens that have cultivated their intellects by , the pursuit of truth and beauty using the highest quality sources available?" Wow, is that what you think they teach in public schools..."MASTERING ETHICS, THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH AND BEAUTY"...no wonder you think public school let you down. Bet you were really disappointed when they tried to teach you to add!

I did not "attack the person"...I was commenting on what that person tried to present as facts!

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
nobody will want to learn what they do not perceive as valuable. Most students correctly detrermine the value of the modern curriculum, it is not only worthless, but it damages you for life, look at the English Majoy who mistakenly thinks hooked on phonics worked for him. MOst teachers don't know what works, if by works we mean something that is of educational value.

I am sorry you feel education in schools is worthless. As a teacher, my curriculum is certainly not perfect. I will be the first to admit that. I do the best I can with what I have. I dont have the funding or support to even begin to bring it to perfect.

That said, however, most teachers (including myself) hope to teach students skills, such as problem solving, thinking, and decision making skills, that will help them in every day life. When assigned correctly, homework allows students to practice these skills.

Unfortunately, many students arrive in secondary grades without BASIC skills. Able to read and follow directions. Able to read and print words. Able to act appropriately when working with others. Respecting others. Basic math skills. All of these skills are needed in order to fill out an application for a job, and communicate with people.

I was not suggesting people not have children if they dont want to do homework, I was suggesting that being involved in your child's life is a part of being a parent. And like it or not, until a child is 16, it's the law that they attend, and so parent's NEED to be involved in that part of thier child's life. And with the NCLB hanging over everybody's head, children have more pressure than ever.

And if parents are unhappy with the schools ( I see so many parents complain on blogs and comments such as these ) VOICE your concerns in an appropriate forum. I recently attended a meeting at my own son's school extended learning time and do you know how many parents showed up? About 20. From a school of over 500 students. If parents really were concerned about extended learning, and how it might affect children, they would be at these meetings. Unless of course, it is just one more thing you dont have time for.

Oh, and what about school open houses? I see less than 10% of my student's parents each year during open house. Perhaps parents didnt have time for that either? My only gripe is that people can complain and whine from the saftey of thier computer, with the monitor as thier mask. If more people really voiced thier points and stood up for what they really feel, perhaps our education system would not be in the state it is now.

local teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
I am sorry you feel education in schools is worthless. As a teacher, my curriculum is certainly not perfect. I will be the first to admit that. I do the best I can with what I have. I dont have the funding or support to even begin to bring it to perfect.
That said, however, most teachers (including myself) hope to teach students skills, such as problem solving, thinking, and decision making skills, that will help them in every day life. When assigned correctly, homework allows students to practice these skills.
Unfortunately, many students arrive in secondary grades without BASIC skills. Able to read and follow directions. Able to read and print words. Able to act appropriately when working with others. Respecting others. Basic math skills. All of these skills are needed in order to fill out an application for a job, and communicate with people.
I was not suggesting people not have children if they dont want to do homework, I was suggesting that being involved in your child's life is a part of being a parent. And like it or not, until a child is 16, it's the law that they attend, and so parent's NEED to be involved in that part of thier child's life. And with the NCLB hanging over everybody's head, children have more pressure than ever.
And if parents are unhappy with the schools ( I see so many parents complain on blogs and comments such as these ) VOICE your concerns in an appropriate forum. I recently attended a meeting at my own son's school extended learning time and do you know how many parents showed up? About 20. From a school of over 500 students. If parents really were concerned about extended learning, and how it might affect children, they would be at these meetings. Unless of course, it is just one more thing you dont have time for.
Oh, and what about school open houses? I see less than 10% of my student's parents each year during open house. Perhaps parents didnt have time for that either? My only gripe is that people can complain and whine from the saftey of thier computer, with the monitor as thier mask. If more people really voiced thier points and stood up for what they really feel, perhaps our education system would not be in the state it is now.

Local Teacher,

Thank you.

I went to public shools. I had some sucky teachers and some great teachers. I had hours worth of homework, my parents didn't complain. They also didn't complain that my recess wasn't long enough-or that I should've had more snacks. I wanted to learn, so I did-it didn't matter that a teacher couldn't teach as well as another-I learned on my own--with the HELP of teachers and my parents. I went on to college, graduated and have a decent job. Not once did I complain that public schools ruined my life, nor would my parents have complained to an addition of a little more school time.

I might add-when I got a bad grade, my parents did not blame the school system or my teacher...they said I didn't study or try enough- guess what? Years later, I realized they were right. Teachers have all kinds of bad hands dealt to them and they are trying to make the best of it and do their jobs with having more students, budget cuts, lack of materials and disruptive students. How about we let kids quit school when they don't feel like being there anymore and give the rest that want to learn a chance to? Give them some slack..

local teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
I am sorry you feel education in schools is worthless. As a teacher, my curriculum is certainly not perfect. I will be the first to admit that. I do the best I can with what I have. I dont have the funding or support to even begin to bring it to perfect.
, that will students arrive in secondary grades forum. I recently attended a meeting at my own son's school extended learning time and do you know how many parents showed up? About 20. From a school of over 500 students. If parents really were concerned about extended learning, and how it might affect children, they would be at these meetings. Unless of course, it is just one more thing you dont have time for.
Oh, and what about school open houses? I see less than 10% of my student's parents each year during open house. Perhaps parents didnt have time for that either? My only gripe is that people can complain and whine from the saftey of thier computer, with the monitor as thier mask. If more people really voiced thier points and stood up for what they really feel, perhaps our education system would not be in the state it is now.

Believe me local teacher, it is not a feeling.
I don’t think education is worthless, I know it is far worse than that, it actually harms our children. The solutions to our curriculum problems are free, they are the inheritance we have chosen to cut ourselves off from. This is not in dispute in the ‘great conversation’ only through the lenses of the post modern era. I will maintain that teaching kids to “practice skills” as you mention, is the fundamental problem with educational thinking today. It is a substitution of Aristotle’s efficient cause for final causes. To discuss homework as skills practice is generally drained of meaning and of value, unless you are able to consider practical value in terms of performance of your class. So discussing kids coming to secondary school without basic skills shames us all. This is the given, are we as professionals not responsible for solving this problem?(if one assumes that this is really the problem, which it is most certainly not) What are now called basic skills are no more than pedantic details that possess extremely little value.
As you discuss, your value judgment of having parents make children do their homework if they are to be good parents is limited at best, but more likely it is moronic if you consider the immense waste of time that most homework is. Why don’t you give me an example of a homework assignment that is worth any time at all?
The big issue, if you are able to look past your indignation, is exactly as you mention. I too work at a school that has about a 10% back to school night. If you were honest, you would have to admit that this dismal percentage is not a result of bad parenting as many teacher would like to think, but a natural consequence of a bad relationship. If teachers would recognize the fact that we are servants and that our clients and their well being is our priority, and if we built relationships with our students and their families based on mutual respect, and if our clients were convinced that we as professionals are bringing their children the best educational experience possible and available, we would have nearly 100% attendance at back to school night. So your dismal percentage of back to school night tells me much more about your relationships with your students than it does about the families you are supposed to serve.
I can assure you, I would say the same thing to your face, I am not hiding behind the mask of a computer.

LHS Alum wrote:

I went to public shools. I had some sucky teachers and some great teachers. I had hours worth of homework, my parents didn't complain. They also didn't complain that my recess wasn't long enough-or that I should've had more snacks. I wanted to learn, so I did-it didn't matter that a teacher couldn't teach as well as another-I learned on my own--with the HELP of teachers and my parents. I went on to college, graduated and have a decent job. Not once did I complain that public schools ruined my life, nor would my parents have complained to an addition of a little more school time.

Your position typifies one of the major problems in education today, the idea that you would know what a great teacher is very debateable, not to mention what an excellent education is. Most teachers don't have a clue.

local teacher: I think Mark has finally identified why HE thinks public schools suck pond water...as he said himself "I too work at a school". I do feel pity for any school that has someone so unhappy with his life working there. It must really ROT to have to work for the one place you despise the most...hating the job and everybody around you! You identified yourself as a "teacher", and proudly so. Without teachers we would be worse off than 3rd world countries. Thank you for your contribution to society. I KNOW you do not do it for the money! Mark appears to want people to "think" he is an educator by his comment, but has stopped short of actually saying such, only that he "works" there. I know there are janitors at schools, not that there is anything wrong with that! I know that crossing guards think they "work at a school"...not that there is anything wrong with that either. They both do jobs that are needed by society. Whatever his position in life it is evident that it is far less than he thinks it should be, and that it is the public school system that has let him down, and pushed him into a job that is "much less than his capabilities". I just hope this guy can hold it together long enough to have himself a stroke vs. any outward manifestation of his absolute hatred for public schools and the horrible people that work there. If I had a child at "his school" I don't think I would sleep very well at night. Keep the faith local teacher...not everybody is against you!

Paul from Leominster wrote:

local teacher: I think Mark has finally identified why HE thinks public schools suck pond water...as he said himself "I too work at a school". I do feel pity for any school that has someone so unhappy with his life working there. It must really ROT to have to work for the one place you despise the most...hating the job and everybody around you! You identified yourself as a "teacher", and proudly so. Without teachers we would be worse off than 3rd world countries. Thank you for your contribution to society. I KNOW you do not do it for the money! Mark appears to want people to "think" he is an educator by his comment, but has stopped short of actually saying such, only that he "works" there. I know there are janitors at schools, not that there is anything wrong with that! I know that crossing guards think they "work at a school"...not that there is anything wrong with that either. They both do jobs that are needed by society. Whatever his position in life it is evident that it is far less than he thinks it should be, and that it is the public school system that has let him down, and pushed him into a job that is "much less than his capabilities". I just hope this guy can hold it together long enough to have himself a stroke vs. any outward manifestation of his absolute hatred for public schools and the horrible people that work there. If I had a child at "his school" I don't think I would sleep very well at night. Keep the faith local teacher...not everybody is against you!

Thank you!:)

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
Believe me local teacher, it is not a feeling.
I don’t think education is worthless, I know it is far worse than that, it actually harms our children. The solutions to our curriculum problems are free, they are the inheritance we have chosen to cut ourselves off from. This is not in dispute in the ‘great conversation’ only through the lenses of the post modern era. I will maintain that teaching kids to “practice skills” as you mention, is the fundamental problem with educational thinking today. It is a substitution of Aristotle’s efficient cause for final causes. To discuss homework as skills practice is generally drained of meaning and of value, unless you are able to consider practical value in terms of performance of your class. So discussing kids coming to secondary school without basic skills shames us all. This is the given, are we as professionals not responsible for solving this problem?(if one assumes that this is really the problem, which it is most certainly not) What are now called basic skills are no more than pedantic details that possess extremely little value.
As you discuss, your value judgment of having parents make children do their homework if they are to be good parents is limited at best, but more likely it is moronic if you consider the immense waste of time that most homework is. Why don’t you give me an example of a homework assignment that is worth any time at all?
The big issue, if you are able to look past your indignation, is exactly as you mention. I too work at a school that has about a 10% back to school night. If you were honest, you would have to admit that this dismal percentage is not a result of bad parenting as many teacher would like to think, but a natural consequence of a bad relationship. If teachers would recognize the fact that we are servants and that our clients and their well being is our priority, and if we built relationships with our students and their families based on mutual respect, and if our clients were convinced that we as professionals are bringing their children the best educational experience possible and available, we would have nearly 100% attendance at back to school night. So your dismal percentage of back to school night tells me much more about your relationships with your students than it does about the families you are supposed to serve.
I can assure you, I would say the same thing to your face, I am not hiding behind the mask of a computer.

I truly feel sad for you that you have such a negative view. Perhaps it is this attidute that you bring to your "job" at the school you "work" for that causes those poor relationships parents feel towards education that you spoke of.

Paul from Leominster wrote:

local teacher: I think Mark has finally identified why HE thinks public schools suck pond water...as he said himself "I too work at a school". I do feel pity for any school that has someone so unhappy with his life working there. It must really ROT to have to work for the one place you despise the most...hating the job and everybody around you! You identified yourself as a "teacher", and proudly so. Without teachers we would be worse off than 3rd world countries. Thank you for your contribution to society. I KNOW you do not do it for the money! Mark appears to want people to "think" he is an educator by his comment, but has stopped short of actually saying such, only that he "works" there. I know there are janitors at schools, not that there is anything wrong with that! I know that crossing guards think they "work at a school"...not that there is anything wrong with that either. They both do jobs that are needed by society. Whatever his position in life it is evident that it is far less than he thinks it should be, and that it is the public school system that has let him down, and pushed him into a job that is "much less than his capabilities". I just hope this guy can hold it together long enough to have himself a stroke vs. any outward manifestation of his absolute hatred for public schools and the horrible people that work there. If I had a child at "his school" I don't think I would sleep very well at night. Keep the faith local teacher...not everybody is against you!

THANK YOU!

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
Believe me local teacher, it is not a feeling.
I don’t think education is worthless, I know it is far worse than that, it actually harms our children. The solutions to our curriculum problems are free, they are the inheritance we have chosen to cut ourselves off from. This is not in dispute in the ‘great conversation’ only through the lenses of the post modern era. I will maintain that teaching kids to “practice skills” as you mention, is the fundamental problem with educational thinking today. It is a substitution of Aristotle’s efficient cause for final causes. To discuss homework as skills practice is generally drained of meaning and of value, unless you are able to consider practical value in terms of performance of your class. So discussing kids coming to secondary school without basic skills shames us all. This is the given, are we as professionals not responsible for solving this problem?(if one assumes that this is really the problem, which it is most certainly not) What are now called basic skills are no more than pedantic details that possess extremely little value.
As you discuss, your value judgment of having parents make children do their homework if they are to be good parents is limited at best, but more likely it is moronic if you consider the immense waste of time that most homework is. Why don’t you give me an example of a homework assignment that is worth any time at all?
The big issue, if you are able to look past your indignation, is exactly as you mention. I too work at a school that has about a 10% back to school night. If you were honest, you would have to admit that this dismal percentage is not a result of bad parenting as many teacher would like to think, but a natural consequence of a bad relationship. If teachers would recognize the fact that we are servants and that our clients and their well being is our priority, and if we built relationships with our students and their families based on mutual respect, and if our clients were convinced that we as professionals are bringing their children the best educational experience possible and available, we would have nearly 100% attendance at back to school night. So your dismal percentage of back to school night tells me much more about your relationships with your students than it does about the families you are supposed to serve.
I can assure you, I would say the same thing to your face, I am not hiding behind the mask of a computer.

Mark,

When I read your first few post's I wanted to respond to you but found it hard to put into words my thoughts about your absurd rants. Now I understand why. You work in a school (as a teacher I assume, or you would not have stated this fact), yet you think that the education system is worthless? How do you drag yourself into work every day with the thought that what you do is useless. That must be a miserable life. Why don't you find a different line of work that you find more useful? You talk about building relationships with the students (and their families) that you teach. How do you go about doing that. Do you go to their house, sit down with them, discuss their child's education? Sounds the same as having the parents come in on parents night. I know my child's teachers have always made us feel a part of their education. We have e-mailed them and spoke with them if we have any questions.

Mark, it all comes down to one simple fact.

"No one takes responsibility for themselves".

Mark,
the idea that I would know what a great teacher is is debateable.....here's one that isn't.... you would be an example of a sucky teacher.....

LHS Alum wrote:

Mark,
the idea that I would know what a great teacher is is debateable.....here's one that isn't.... you would be an example of a sucky teacher.....

And that is a certainty because????

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
And that is a certainty because????

because you said yourself that education is worthless and is hurting our children... how could you possibly be a positive, inspiring teacher to children with that kind of mentality? It is teachers like you (if indeed you are a teacher) that give others a bad name and create sterotypes. Perhaps you are just a disgruntled employee, who knows. But whatever your position, you have certainly left a bad impression for yourself.

local teacher wrote:

<quoted text>because you said yourself that education is worthless and is hurting our children... how could you possibly be a positive, inspiring teacher to children with that kind of mentality? It is teachers like you (if indeed you are a teacher) that give others a bad name and create sterotypes. Perhaps you are just a disgruntled employee, who knows. But whatever your position, you have certainly left a bad impression for yourself.

I said that our educational system is worthless, there is nothing more important than an education.