Turkish-Armenian feud a factor in race

In reviewing your massive, and often-repeated posts here and there, one thing stands out:

you seldom if ever deal actually with the issue of genocide.

Your major argument is that we in America are not entitled to use the term because there has been no "tribunal" on the issue. That's like saying that I cannot observe, and conclude that a crime occurred until someone is convicted of the crime. The UN Convention does not prohibit any conclusion from being drawn by individyuals or scholars. But if it did, you would have to say you don't know if Genocide occurred. Instead, you say you "know" it did not..

The rest of your remarks address a non existent affirmative defense - peovocation or self defense. These apply to individuals, not races. You are not allowed to slaughter a five year old girl, or drown her mother, or burn Christians alive in their churches because other members of the social and language group join Russian forces or even kill innocent Moslems. We gave up eye for an eye justice some time ago.

Under your theory, Sudan can never be guilty of genocide because the victims support armed rebels who regularly kill, guerilla style, government forces not to mention occasional Arab civilians.

Ergun, volume and capital letters are not facts. Invoking the deaths of your Grandparents in Greece does not pertain to or negate with what Armenians and Armenia suffered.

Ron,

What have Armenians done to you?

Wartime suffering ? Yes, but on all sides, Turks, Armenians, and others, alike...

Genocide? No, not even by a long shot.

The termgenocide does not apply to warring factions.

What Armenians are doing is ethocide, i.e. mass deception for political gain.

That is the plain truth.

Cry me a river, you think you are the only people who served.

jda wrote:

<quoted text>
Armen,
Thank you.
There are two books by Richard Demirjian you might want to read about Armenian Americans who served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. In their own words. We even had Marine aviators in WWII, and one or two Army Generals to boot.
Today, there are at least two Marines from two of the several Armenian Churches in the Bay Area. I hear also that in 2003, one of the CWOs flying helos over Baghdad was a female Hye.
My great grandfather was in the US Army in 1899.
Here was my message to Bud, number 128.
Bud;
For starters, I suggest you find out who Victor "Transport" Maghakian and Harry Kizirian were before you pull out the Marine credentials. Both got the Navy Cross. Both were Marines. Transport was decribed as a one man Army with Carlson's Raiders at Makin Island, while Harry saved a stretcher party and four wounded Marines on Okinawa.
In WWII about 25,000 Armenian Americans served. Given that the community was very small, that was and still is a huge number. We had survivors of the Bataan Death March, among the paratroopers in Normandy, in air crews throughout the world, including friends of mine.
And while you're looking, try out Ernest der Vishian, winner of the CMH at Anzio.
By the way Armenians are about as Caucasian as possible - that's where they come from.

Booger wrote:

Cry me a river, you think you are the only people who served.<quoted text>

No, Mr. or Ms. Booger,

Only that we did our part.

Armenianss also served in the Ottoman armies, but backstabbed their fellow Ottoman soldiers...

I would not be surprised if the Armenians do the same here one day... After all, they did not care if Americans were killed duirng Armenian terrorist attacks.

What's worse is that this Topalian fellow (a convicted Armenian terrorist) stored explosives in a u-rent-a-space locker which was next to a school, a daycare facility, and a gas station! And this Topalian fellow claimed he was an American patriot, with his photos taken with U.S. presidents adorning his office walls. Topalina was caught by the FBI, tried, convicted, and served many years in prison. After he was let out, the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turks Haters) treated him like a hero. He now goes around college campuses to advise "the youth". This is Armenian patriotism for you.

For Armenians, Armenia is fisrt and foremost. All the rest are details. I would not trust an Armenian solider in whatever uniform he carries, if history is any guide, that is.

I searched for a neutral scholar who made estimates of the Armenians killed by the government in the Ottoman and nationalist time frames, as well as Turkish soldiers and civilians killed by Armenian irregulars, civilians or any of the Allied powers in whose Armies Armenians served. I also looked for the number of Moslems the Ottoman Armies killed to suppress the Arab revolt, deaths which Kirlikovali somehow ascribes to Armenians.

A starting point is the work of Professor Robert J.Rummell, whose area of expertise is studying, world-wide, civilians killed by governments, which he calls democide.

He estiames that in the Ottoman - CUP and nationalist periods, 1915-1923 the Turkish states killed 2.8M Armenians.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HT...

If you cannot find it with that address, try hus name, Rummmell, along with Turkissh, democide, genocide search terms on Google.

His books and charts are on line. His work is world-wide. He does not shy away from identifying deaths suffered by Moslems.

ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI wrote:

Armenianss also served in the Ottoman armies, but backstabbed their fellow Ottoman soldiers...
I would not be surprised if the Armenians do the same here one day... After all, they did not care if Americans were killed duirng Armenian terrorist attacks.
What's worse is that this Topalian fellow (a convicted Armenian terrorist) stored explosives in a u-rent-a-space locker which was next to a school, a daycare facility, and a gas station! And this Topalian fellow claimed he was an American patriot, with his photos taken with U.S. presidents adorning his office walls. Topalina was caught by the FBI, tried, convicted, and served many years in prison. After he was let out, the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turks Haters) treated him like a hero. He now goes around college campuses to advise "the youth". This is Armenian patriotism for you.
For Armenians, Armenia is fisrt and foremost. All the rest are details. I would not trust an Armenian solider in whatever uniform he carries, if history is any guide, that is.

Mr. Kirlikovali,

Your racial slur on Armenians needs a factual, not an emotional or general response.

Armenian Americans have served honorably by the scores of thousands since the US Civil War. Among their numbers are numerous men cited for gallantry in battle, winning a Congressional Medal of Honor, and numerous other citations including the Silver and Bronze Stars. They include mmy great grandfather, who served in combat in the Spanish American War. I too have served my county in uniform. I doubt that you have.

The Republic of Armenia also sent a small detachment to Iraq to fight Al Qaeda, which of course Turkey declined to do. In fact, Turkey refused even to allow Americans to overfly Turkey in support of the Iraq invasion, or to use the assets in that country. Defense analysts have concluded that Turkish neutrality cost some American lives. I do not claim Turkey must follow the American examplke, but you are on weak footing attacking Armenian war valor.

You claim that Armenian members of the Ottoman Armey backstabbed - your word, not mine, their comrades. In truth, several hundred thousand unarmed Armenian labor conscripts were killed on government orders in uniform throughout Anatolia. There is plenty of schoalrship on the issue.

jda wrote:

<quoted text>
No, Mr. or Ms. Booger,
Only that we did our part.

I did mine too but I don't take every opportunity to brag about it to everyone. Learn some humility gypsies.

apology recommended by former Turkish diplomat
Below is Ara Arabyan’s translation of retired Turkish diplomat Volkan Vural’s interview with Taraf (Sep 8, 2008), where the former Ambassador says Turkey must apologize to Armenians.
“[Duzel] In response to an invitation by the president of Armenia, President Abdullah Gul went to Yerevan to watch the soccer game [between the Turkish and Armenian national teams]. We have a dispute with Armenia over historical events. Was not the Armenian president’s invitation to Gul before the resolution of this dispute a political risk for himself?
[Vural] Of course it was a risk. The decision to invite the Turkish president to the soccer game was not an easy decision for Armenia. We view the world solely through our own lens. We must also look at events from the perspective of others. There is a neurosis about Turkey in Armenia. Consequently, it is not easy to make any decision related to Turkey. Politicians may have to pay–indeed have paid–a high price for such decisions.
[Duzel] Who paid such a high price?
[Vural] Former President Levon Ter Petrosyan was ousted from office because he sought a solution to the Karabakh problem and to establish ties with Turkey. They made him pay the price of establishing ties with Turkey. Today, even though a major portion of the people of Armenia want relations [with Turkey] to develop and the borders [between the two countries] to open–the Turkey dossier is not so easy to handle as it is thought.
[Duzel] Is it easy to handle the Armenia dossier in Turkey?
[Vural] It is also difficult in Turkey. However, the reality is that the problem between us and Armenia is not something that can be resolved by historians alone. That is because this is psychological and political issue rather than a historical matter. There is a certain psychology, distrust, fear, and terror that the events of the past have created among people.
[Duzel] Do you not think that Armenian and Turkish historians can solve this problem if they discuss the events of the past freely and describe them objectively?
[Vural] A solution to this problem cannot be found via history alone, because a solution requires overcoming the psychological problems this issue has created among people. A solution requires the creation of a climate of trust in which the two peoples can draw closer with affection and respect and where they can talk to each other with ease. This is not a situation that historians can overcome. The Armenian question is a problem that needs to solved by politicians, not historians. History can only shed light on certain issues and play a role that facilitates a solution. That is all.
[Duzel] Do you think that any diplomatic steps will be taken in the aftermath of the [Turkish] president’s visit to Armenia?
[Vural] I expect and hope that they will be taken.

balance of Mr. Vural's interview to be posted tonight.

If you doubt what he said, google vural, armenian and apology.

Vural is doing business with Armenia, thus the turning of the coat.

Your numbers, as always, are extremely inflated. Pro-Armenian writers regurgitate Armenian propaganda first and then AFATH writers come into play one more time citing those biased numbers. They tell us: "See? So and so is not Armenian but says this." And we are supposed to be hoodwinked? Not any longer, my friend, as your jig is up!

That's how 8,400 Armenians killed in feuds and 45,000 perished sue to hunger, epidemics, and elements, yileding a total of 53,800 became

"more than 200,000" first (Paris Peace Conference Report dated 29 March 1919),

600,000 two months after that (Poster printed by Armenians splattered all over the U.S. in May 1919),

"about a million" in 1970s,

"about two million" in 1980s,

"about 3 million" in 1990s,

It dropped down to 1.5 million nowadays,

but some are still using the term "more than a miliion"...

So much for Armenian numbers...

I would suspect the Armenian lobby if they said 2 + 2 = 4 to me.

Armenian credibility is so low, that Armenians came up with new tools to deceive the public:

"credibility by association" (always cite Jewish Holocaust with Armenian arguments)

"credibility by extension" (bring in other ethnic groups like Assyrinas, Greeks, Kurds, etc. and form a front)

"credibility by laundering" (Get a bunch of retired psycologists, third grade sociologists, etc and confer upon them the meaningless title of "gencoide scholar"; as they regurgitate Armenian propaganda, you collect the goodwill.)

"credibility by other methods" 9too long to list here.

In short, the Armenian j-i-g i-s u-p !

Mr Kirlikovali,

I represent nobody, Iam not what you think of as a Diasporan.

The work of Rummell was presented as a starting point. He is unbiased.

So you are now saying that the Armenian death toll is 4.7 per cent by "feuds?" Meaning non-Moslems killed them?

8,400 Armenians killed in feuds, in Turkish "mukatele", rough translation: mutual killings.

45,000 perished due to hunger, epidemics, and other elements, yielding a total of 53,800.

All of these are based on "crime scene reports" and cane be produced, authenticated in a "competent tribunal": which the AFATH community frets so terribly.

If a number can go from 54,000 to 200,000 to 600,000 to 1 million to 2 million to 3 million bact to 1.5 million and now rests on "more than a million figure", you should suspect Armenian fould play, with or without Rummel of any shade or color.

I find your quotes, numbers, sources, and your entire case "ethocidal".

If ytou want sympathy for your rebellions, terrorism, treason, agitation, propaganda, or whateverelse, I am the wrong address.

Because I am on to you people... The Armenian jig is up!

(Now, what part of this is so difficult to understand?)

can you identify any scholar who thinks only 8400 Armenians died by human hands between 1915 and 1923?

Does "feud" mean Armenian v Armenian violence?

Turkish Historical Society which actually read, understood, and evaluated those Ottoman documents. It is curious that although the Ottoman archives constitute half the story, technically, no one in the AFATH camp seems to have rtead them, not that they can as the Ottoman language is a refined combination of Turkish, Arabic, and Farsi. But at least, they can creat a team, translate documents, and study them. No one has done that. You would be amazed as to what kind of details there are in them. They also corroborate and are consistent within them. The Turkish side can refute Armenian claims effortlesly in any "competent tribunal". That is why the Turkish stand is so clear and self-confident. I recommend you read Dr. Kemal Cicek's book "1915-1916 Through Ottoman Imperial Documents."

No, feud does not mean Arm-vs-Arm. It means, tit-for-tat; mutual killings, Arm kill Turk, Kurd, and Circassian; the latter retaliate in kind. Former kill again; latter retaliate again. And so on. Again, all of these can be dopcumented to the precise locations. Suspected mass grave sites of Muslims are even listed, awaiting digging.

A few years ago, a Swedish team claimed a location in Anatolia to be a mass grave site for Armenian victims. A joint Turkish-Swedish team did the digging; bones found belonged to Muslims (as evidenced by Islamic religious items found on skeletons. We never heard back from that Swedish team again.

Turkish Historical Society says "if 1.5 million Armenians were really killed, then where are the mass graves?" If you claim it is impossible to locate sites for those mass graves, fasten your seatbelts: because Turks were able locate the mass graves for the Muslim victims of Armenian atrocities. So the question begs to be asked: where are those 1.5 million Armenian bodies?

You see where I am going with this?

Mr Kirlikovali,

Your posts are as farcical as they are devoid of humanity.

In trying to evade, avoid and excuse mass murder by the State, you attempt to make yourself a bigger victim than the millions of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians who perished. This type of heated "blame the victim" mentality used to be quite common among Germans who effectively blamed Jews for their own destruction, while pointing out the unrelated hardships suffered by Germans.

Are you claiming that Turkish gendarmes, soldiers, irregulars, and specially-released prisoners sat down after masssacring Armenian women and children to write accurate "accident reports" every time they slit throats, bayoneted, burned, clubbed and drowned Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks, and that both these supposed records and the lack of records are accurate representations of what happened in Anatloia?

I even see that you effectively accused Armenians of killing Hrant Dink. Were those smiling police officers posing with the Turkish flag and Samast Armenians, too?

Your writings are a dead letter, as are your sentiments. The world laughs at your arguments.

JDA,

I keep asking questions to you but gt no answers. The reason I keep doing it is not that I expect to get any answer from you, but to show the world the hypocrisy behind the Armenian propaganda. You cannot answer those questions because that would be admitting the fact that it was a civil war provoked and waged by the Armenians with activ (Russia, Britain, France) and passive (US diplomats, missionaries, media and other) support.

I'll ask questions about two simple subjects to you in fornt of the world public opinion and see if you can handle them HONESTLY and CORRECTLY?

Subject 1: Armenian rebellions

Did Armeniens take up arms against their own government?

Did they establish groups to organize propaganda, agitation, recruitment, armed training,transfer of arms and ammo through many routes into the Ottoman Empire, kill Turkish officials, kill even Armenians who were judged to be traitors, organize attacks on Turkish villages and towns and government facilities?

Did some Armenian religious leaders actually take part in those mutinous acts?

Are there photos and maps of these plans, attacks, and murders?

2- All that brings us to the next question on Muslim/Turkish mortality:

How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?

Ergun Kirlikovali

Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides

www.turkla.com

Armeinans sure are long winded. Maybe that is why the Turks went after them. Just to shut them up

Mr Kirlikovali,

Referencing your statement: "Because I am on to you people... The Armenian jig is up!" at post 242, in which you assert that only about 61,000 Armenians died in total, 1915-1916:

Your favored professor, Mr. Lewy, writes that over 642,000 Armenians died in 1915-1916 alone. Is he a victim of inherently untrustworthy sources and Armenian influence? Too much pilaf?

Your number is less than 10 per cent of his number.

Most scholars think the 1915-1916 numbers are higher, but we take for granted you - a polymer expert - disagree. You're entitled, this is a free country.

Why do you think you're right and your favorite Professor is wrong? Is it that he didn't read the Ottoman "accident reports"?

Let's assume as a given that ethnic Armenians were in the Russian, French, British and even the American Armies, and that each killed Turkish and Moslem soldiers in battle. Let's even assume that some irregulars killed innocent Moslems. Let's assume that there were even armed insurrections at Van and elsewhere, similar to what American patriots did in 1775-1781. Or not similar.

None of that bars the label "genocide" from being applied to actions of the Ottoman state, led by murderers and racists, as they caused the killings of hundreds of thousands or millions of Christian civilians. See, e.g. Darfur, where the USA has no problem calling Genocide what it is, in a situation where the victim group can accurately be shown to have armed rebels.

Your effort to call Armenian deaths the products of "feuds" started by Armenians is truly beyond belief and decency. Apparently your present hatred for Armenians reaches back to the Armenians of 1915 and before.

If there were time, I would send these unspeakable strings of your comemnts to CNN for their documentary Thursday night. I assume you are busy at work copying stuff for their website.

Give up. It won't make any difference. Your audience is you and your ultra nationalist, "Turks can do no wrong" pals. Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Armenains, Nestorians, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Greeks of the Aegean and Pontus all have the same terriblle histories and memories.