Our Apologies

I think I have a new hero, Ben.

Its sad to know that as humans - a species that is the smartest and most compassionate could still have thoughts like this. This is very upsetting to know. We all are one.

RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN SLOGAN:

SALLY KERN: Stifling intellectual progress and spreading hatred through ignorance, fear, and lies since 2004.

Innocuous Karma wrote:

Striker
I am going to have to disagree with you on this. There is refuting evidence that shows that homosexuality is genetic.

Even though its claimed that there are scientific evidence to support this claim, there are also social evidence to prove otherwise.
If I am to argue along the realms of scientist then it can be argued (however far fetched this may seem) that due to the so-called evolutionary nature of human beings(Referencing Darwin's Theory), the condition of the brain at the time of death maybe as a result of the brains reaction to excess stress brought on by the suffering of claiming or adopting the lifestyle(humans adopt to there environment). However, this notion can be refuted because no one to my knowledge has researched from this angle(does it mean that my theory is wrong?). Additionally, the fact that these are corpses doesn't really prove (in my opinion cause I'm not a scientist or medical researcher) that these people where born with this condition, it simply proves that people who adhere to this lifestyle simply differ from those who don't in brain structure, or do they?. Adequate scientific prove would be to examine the brain of a baby immediately after birth, make sure it doesn't die, and see, with the condition mentioned whether or not that person will be gay or not.

As with the Bible, if we can use nature to prove anything that we want to, whether it is correct or not we will and have done so on numerous occasions. The evidence you presented simply is a correspondent truth. Proven by the fact that if someone who has that condition at the time of examination, and didn't exhibit the traits assumed, was simply suppressing that the feeling. To make that assumption is to say that, you know that person inside and out, which is simply not possible, kinda like telling me that I don't dream in color, which you cannot prove or disprove. Therefore pragmatically this can be refuted.

I do respect your search for scientific evidence on this subject matter, however, we aren't dealing with machines or any other man-made devices. Despite the advances in technology we still don't understand totally the complexity of the human body and nature, so there are just somethings I don't agree on that scientist believe to explain my existence or my actions, similar to some views of the Bible and God. The fact is we all make mistakes and we are all equal. So no matter how smart or accomplished scientist, psychologist or any authoritative source on this matter maybe, they make mistakes just like me and you.

The best way I have to answer the bible thumpers is just to continue. The past thirty years in the US has seen a massive change in the church landscape. Mega churches have sprouted all over the country, religious networks appearing on television, and the right has been(up till 2006) amazingly cunning in getting their candidates on the ballot and up front. A massive amount of money is flowing into the accounts of churches - an astounding amount the world has rarely seen and the American church has freedoms the historical church would find astounding.
And yet, looking around, it seems they have not accomplished near what they'd hoped. It angers them that so many do not find their message compelling. Despite their huge presence, gay rights continue to increase. Of course there are some setbacks, but life today for a gay person is a hundred times better than it was twenty years ago. Truthfully, even ten years ago.
Just continue. They know that their churches are often just as broken as the world they curse, and it is embarassing with so much freedom, so much time, so much money, to still be largely in the same place they were when they were the persecuted minority.
I give great credit to the parishioners and leaders of Pastor Haggards church. I fully expected them to point their fingers at the outside world and claim that they were tainted by us, but, at least initially, they instead turned inward and said they had to examine themselves. It felt nice not to be part of the accused, and I wished them all the best.

Debbiez wrote:

I don't see anything she said is soo bad. Why is it okay for the gay community can voice their belief but get offended when the straight world takes a stand and accuses us as a hate crime.. By the way the gays need to read the bible front to back and see it stand on gay people. I teach my children that being gay is unaceptable and a sin against god. I'm proud to be a straight woman and proud that I am raising god fearing law abidding staight citzens. Yes I am ANTIGAY. I applause Rep Kern for being true to her beliefs and not allowing the gay community to bully her.

That's why people like you are seen as ignorant white trash in other parts of the country. Go roll your trailer to another forum where someone actually cares to hear your life story.

Sally's remarks are a real shame, and I know her hate-filled words do not reflect all of Oklahoma. However, I do hope those of you in her district let her know that you do not appreciate her hate speach.

After listening to her interview where she says she is not going to apologize, I'm really disappointed that she views being gay as a "choice" (when referring to her son). Being gay is as much of a choice as being white or black, and there are numerous scientific studies to prove its genetic.

I'm not religious, but I will also ask that everyone keep Sally Kern in their thoughts because she is the one with "cancer", not the gay community.

Debbiez wrote:

I don't see anything she said is soo bad. Why is it okay for the gay community can voice their belief but get offended when the straight world takes a stand and accuses us as a hate crime.. By the way the gays need to read the bible front to back and see it stand on gay people. I teach my children that being gay is unaceptable and a sin against god. I'm proud to be a straight woman and proud that I am raising god fearing law abidding staight citzens. Yes I am ANTIGAY. I applause Rep Kern for being true to her beliefs and not allowing the gay community to bully her.

And where I come from, that's called child abuse. They investigate things like that and remove children from dangerous households like that. I guess that's why we're more advanced than Oklahoma is. It seems that the only bullying being done is on the part of Rep. Kern. Representatives are elected to do the job at hand, which doesn't include giving their opinions and trying desperately to take away someone else's rights. Practice what you want within the confines of your church and home, but leave it out of the public.

"I applause Rep Kern for being true to her beliefs and not allowing the gay community to bully her."

RESPONSE:

Bully HER?

LOL !!!

Just the Facts wrote:

<quoted text>Oh, before you said I stated homosexual = communism, and now you spin it saying "It was more a reference to..."
Thanks for proving me right on how you spin the facts.
Socialism is Communism. if you are for Socialized medicine and the government taking care of the people, then you are for bringing Communism to this country which makes you a Communist.
Truth hurts sometimes, or maybe you are just clueless as so many are as to how Communism was "slowly" brought into Europe and Italy back in the day.
Did you notice how California passed a law to make homeschooling illegal? The Communists did the same thing, just like they disarmed the people so they had no weapons to fight it off, just like the democrat Communists in this country want to outlaw qll guns.

"Just the Facts" You are funny. For example, here in California, no law was passed to ban home schooling. The law that was actually passed, which I think would be a fact, only required the folks who homeschool their kids need to know something about how to teach their kids so that they actually learn something while being homeschooled.
Like, if your are going to teach your kisd math, the state wants to be sure that you know enough about math to be able to teach it.
The research shows (some more inconvenient facts) that too many homeschooled kids leave their home schools without enough information (facts) and skills to be able to compete in the workplace or function in college.
So, probably fan of Bill O'Reilly (not a fact, just a projection), please don't hide your spin inside of unfactual attacks on other people's supposed spin.
Question: if there is a relationship between Democrats and the so-called Homosexual Agenda, how do you explain Gay Republicans?

Hershel wrote:

<quoted text>
And where I come from, that's called child abuse. They investigate things like that and remove children from dangerous households like that. I guess that's why we're more advanced than Oklahoma is. It seems that the only bullying being done is on the part of Rep. Kern. Representatives are elected to do the job at hand, which doesn't include giving their opinions and trying desperately to take away someone else's rights. Practice what you want within the confines of your church and home, but leave it out of the public.

Hey I notice you and "anon.." are from the same town! Not familiar with it. But judging that you put your name next to what you wrote, while she wouldn't says something right there. As for child abuse...you got it. It's what is called "spiritual abuse" and it is very real..and it is a growing concern in parts of this country. Anyone that stands and accuses another that they are not good enough or they are not worthy, or they can not do something b/c the way they have decided to practice their faith..is spiritually abusing that person. I feel sorry for the kids of that woman..ESPECIALLY if one is gay or becomes pregnant, or has some sort of social issue...no doubt the parents will boot them to the street since it's the christian thing to do...

sorry my bad...that commetn was directed towards the lunatic "debbiez" and not Anonymous. my bad

"I feel sorry for the kids of that woman..ESPECIALLY if one is gay"

RESPONSE:

rmb, I would feel VERY sorry for the child.

Check it, though.

Her son is allegedly gay and got into some trouble cruising bathrooms or such.

Situations like this where there's an oppressive, condemning parent and a closeted gay child, the gay child often grows up and explores his sexuality via questionable venues, such as the aforementioned, because he has no healthy outlet for doing so without fear of being exposed.

Those people give gay people a bad name.

Look at Larry Craig.

Not all gay people pursue these kinds of interactions in public places. It's called "repression" and its biproducts (or would that be gayproducts in this case....boo) are unfortunate...for us all.

I wish everyone who fights homosexuality so hard would take a step back and realize there are better things to fight for. If they wanted to they could help end child hunger (it's happens in America for all you Xenophobes!), global warming, or even corruption of the church, and not just the Catholics. But no, this will never happen as long as people are so **** bent on hating decent people trying to cope in a world full of bigotry.

Alex wrote:

Hi Elizabeth, I hoping that you follow this forum and will check on this. I'm trying to contact you (and Tucker) in the hopes of getting permission to print his letter in other forums. If you do read this, would you please get in touch with the following site, http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do... .
Thanks.

I don't check here often but was told of the interest Tucker's letter has caused. I want to say first that I did not make that post saying Tucker was reading the letter on the Ellen Degeneris show. I don't know who did that.

Tucker is not seeking national acclaim, he simply wants Sally Kern to know that she is very insensitive to real victims of terrorism and how her words have resulted in the abuse of gay students.

I did gain Tucker's permission to print his letter and sent copies of it to various media outlets and everyone may do so.

The sole purpose though is for Kern to see the letter and I am quite sure that has happened by now. But she has not responded to Tucker's emails or made any comment about it at all.

Tucker called McVeigh a Christian extremist in the letter. McVeigh may've or may've not beein into God, it depended on who asked him whenever. There are times he claims to be with the Christian identity movement and there are other times he claimed to be agnostic. The point in this is calling Islam dangerous is wrong. Most Muslims are peaceful. Most Christians are peaceful. I hear all the time that Muslims hate Jews...well so do the KKK, Aryans, and lots of other Christians too.

Sally Kern insensitively made remarks about gays being worse than terrorists in a city that next month will remember the 13th anniversary of a terrorist bombing in OKC. Kern came to Oklahoma a year after that bombing. The ones of us who were affected by that terror event are offended by her remarks.

Kern is a cold, cold woman. That stone hard heart certainly won't get her anywhere close to Heaven.

"But no, this will never happen as long as people are so **** bent on hating decent people trying to cope in a world full of bigotry."

RESPONSE:

Jade, how true.

Two things.

Anti-gay people believe we, by definition, are not decent people. It's interesting because you could have a straight guy who beats up a gay guy and (not knowing the straight guy did that) those same people think he's still a decent person, and gays are automatically indecent people, despite the fact that in everyday life that beaten up gay person might volunteer at a shelter, care for an elderly relative in need, live a pacifistic life, and try to commit acts of kindness.

Secondly, I think it is a terrible sin that homophobes dedicate so much of their time to keep gay people down, when their energies would be served in a far holier light if they were to focus on things like poverty, governmental corruption, global warming, inadequate education, no health care...the REAL threats to the American family.

Hi,

I've been reading through these posts and found many of them to be quite disturbing. Just a few points I'd like to make:

(1) Hateful speech, and disagreeable speech, is legal and should remain that way. The whole point of freedom of speech is the protection of speech we find repugnant. It's easy to protect speech which everybody likes. It takes the strength of a country such as the US to protect even speech that we find offensive and inflammatory. Rep. Kern is well within her rights, especially considering that she did not even mean to publicize her comments.

(2) Freedom of speech does not, however, cause your comments to be beyond reproach or criticism. There's a difference between saying "She shouldn't have said that" and "She should go to jail for saying that." Those suggesting legal punishment are suggesting violation of the principle of freedom of speech, and for that they are wrong, but everyone else is just exercising their own opinions, as Rep. Kern did.

(3) I find it somewhat arrogant for anyone to assume they know "God's Word" and to criticize anyone who goes against it. I was raised in a family which practiced another religion ... why should I believe you over my parents?(In the end, I believe neither ... I am an agnostic who believes that while God may exist, he/she is unknowable to us regular humans. And a loving, just God would never punish me for believing that.) I do not begrudge you your faith, but please understand that not everyone shares it, and that is why government must stay out of religion.

(4) Even if we all agreed that homosexuality was a sin in the eyes of God, why is that a government matter? Should we also deny rights to heterosexuals who have premarital sex? I can guarantee you there are a lot more of those than there are homosexuals; I'm personally more concerned about that (though that is not a government matter, either).

(5) Why on Earth would anyone who is attracted to the opposite sex choose to have a sexual relationship with someone of their own? Would you voluntarily engage in a relationship with someone you felt no attraction for? Add to that the social stigma that comes with homosexuality, and I don't see how it could possibly be a choice. If it was a choice, it would be a very foolish one, and I'd rather feel bad for the person that put him/her down.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Elizabeth, please contact me at rob@cimarronalliance.org Several news media would like to interview Tucker

Elizabeth wrote:

Today my nephew attempted to deliver a letter to Sally Kern but was stopped by a highway patrol man. With his permission I am distributing the letter to all news stations and thought I would include it here.
Maybe we can all stand to learn a listen from this smart, loving, young man. He more than most has reason to hate. He lost his mother, my sister, in the Murrah Building bombing.
I am doing this in two parts because of how long it is.
Rep Kern:
On April 19, 1995, in Oklahoma City a terrorist detonated a bomb that killed my mother and 167 others. 19 children died that day. Had I not had the chicken pox that day, the body count would've likely have included one more. Over 800 other Oklahomans were injured that day and many of those still suffer through their permanent wounds.
That terrorist was neither a homosexual or was he involved in Islam. He was an extremist Christian forcing his views through a body count. He held his beliefs and made those who didn't live up to them pay with their lives.
As you were not a resident of Oklahoma on that day, it could be explained why you so carelessly chose words saying that the homosexual agenda is worst than terrorism. I can most certainly tell you through my own experience that is not true. I am sure there are many people in your voting district that laid a loved one to death after the terrorist attack on Oklahoma City. I kind of doubt you'll find one of them that will agree with you.
I was five years old when my mother died. I remember what a beautiful, wise, and remarkable woman she was. I miss her. Your harsh words and misguided beliefs brought me to tears, because you told me that my mother's killer was a better person than a group of people that are seeking safety and tolerance for themselves.
As someone left motherless and victimized by terrorists, I say to you very clearly you are absolutely wrong.
-cont-

RKS, what a wonderful, coherent post.

Thank you.

I want to ask you something.

YOU SAID:

"Rep. Kern is well within her rights, especially considering that she did not even mean to publicize her comments."

My understanding is that she spoke at a public political venue, and THAT is where it gets sticky.

Do you not agree that an elected official of her stature is out of line when her voicing her personal opinion re: the so-called "lifestyle" of some of her constituents puts those constituents at a higher risk of physical assault?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that ignorant, uneducated hicks and thugs jump at the opportunity to validate the projected rage in their life they direct at gay people?

And RKS, a follow up, which has been mentioned before...

What if Ms. Kern said that Jews live an "unacceptable lifestyle" that threatens the American family because they reject Jesus Christ as the literal son of God?

Would THAT be acceptable for this public servant to voice in a public forum?