Superintendent: Bad tenured teachers hard to fire

Something to think about wrote:

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Talking with you is like clapping with one hand.

Ooh boy.

Nice comeback.

I still stand behind my comments. Do a little research into some pop culture there and you may learn a little something.

Bill Cosby is the one who created that character.

Teacher wrote:

Man it's been 2 months of parental bitterness, let it continue..........

One month of teacher bitterness and one month of parental happiness.

Georgie B wrote:

<quoted text>Ooh boy.
Nice comeback. I still stand behind my comments. Do a little research into some pop culture there and you may learn a little something. Bill Cosby is the one who created that character.

Mushmouth - www.dictionary.com
Definition: A person who has trouble articulating and is difficult to understand
Example: Small children in need of braces tend to be mushmouthed.

Is there another definition that I don't know of?
Words and meanings change over the years.

Parent wrote:

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How many hours do you work after the kids are in bed? What about weekends and summers? Have you been lesson planning all summer and getting new ideas for the students?

I probably work close to 2 hours at night. During summers, I take classes here and there. I only need to start preparing for school around 2 weeks before start date. When I have new ideas for lessons, I get on the computer and write them down so I can incorporate them in my lessons. But summers are not spent working non-stop--the work is more leisurely, which is nice.

WH Gal wrote:

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Mushmouth - www.dictionary.com
Definition: A person who has trouble articulating and is difficult to understand
Example: Small children in need of braces tend to be mushmouthed.
Is there another definition that I don't know of?
Words and meanings change over the years.

Right.

So how is that particular word I said earlier an ethnically demeaning word?

Again, I stand by my original comment.

Also stand by my comment of how a thread gets derailed.

TRUTH wrote:

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Plenty of people get up early for work. As a corporate pilot I have to get up as extremely early because most "captains of industry" have to be at meetings by 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning.
As for any of your complaints, those aren't my fault either. Many of us get up early, take home work and have kids, too. Hey, sometimes I even have to go out on a Sunday afternoon because people want to already be at their destination on Monday morning. We do what we have to or quit. it's that simple.
There have been many threads on here involving education and the teachers keep saying the same things over and over as if your jobs are more difficult than ours. I don't feel sorry for myself, or any of you, because we really don't have it that bad. And we all know it, too. So keep telling me how early you have to get up, or how much work you take home, or what a bummer it is to have to get a graduate degree, and how little you make, etc. I'm not going to feel your pain because it's not there in the first place.

Umm. I was answering a question. I am not complaining about my job at all. I love it. I get paid really well. I have a lot of time off. My work hours are amazing for having a family--I never have to leave them for long periods of time, and I have a good pension to look forward to. I have no complaints at all. Life is good.

Cedar Mountain wrote:

<quoted text>Right.
So how is that particular word I said earlier an ethnically demeaning word?
Again, I stand by my original comment.
Also stand by my comment of how a thread gets derailed.

Today was the first time I ever heard that word. Apparently there is another meaning or people would not be upset by it.

Yes threads often get off topic. My opinion is that it should not be difficult to fire an employee who is incompetent. There should always be a paperwork trail though to back up your actions, for both the employee and the employer.

reality wrote:

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When teachers start working a full year, with only 10 vacation/sick days and 6 holidays, then it will be considered a FT job. When they start arriving at school and leaving when I arrive and leave work every day, THEN it will be considered a FT job. NO JOB that allows 2 week vacations every 9 weeks and 5 in the summer can be considered FT. Every day I arrive a my workplace as the teachers at the school next door are rolling in. The kids spend 2.5 hours/day outside the classroom at lunch, extras, and recess - during which time they call parents and grade papers. Their parking lot is empty a solid 1.5 hours before I can leave, assuming all work is done. And every month they have at least 1 planning day with no kids to plan out their lessons. They usually only work 2-3 hours those days.

Oh my God, here we go again.....

If you don't like the job you're in and have so much time to watch the school parking lot next door, then perhaps you should rethink your career choice. My father was a teacher back before there were unions and any job security. He made less than $4000 a year and had to support a family on that and 2 other jobs. He fought hard for unionization and job security and thank goodness he did...teachers were just getting fired because they were too costly to keep and they could hire 2 new ones for the same salary as one older teacher. Tenured or not, bad teachers can be removed, and should be, but the standards for removal have to be set and adhered to by all involved. I love my job and love to teach! I chose this profession long before I thought of the pay, the schedule, or the tenure. It is a rewarding and satisfying career choice.

Georgie B wrote:

<quoted text>One month of teacher bitterness and one month of parental happiness.

You wish, don't you?? Once parents get their act together, public education will be better. Let the parental bitterness continue.........

Something to think about wrote:

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Can you link some examples so we can read more about this? I would love to see that so we can look into what happens in CA. What is your role in this, are you a lawyer, do you get your information from the newspaper, etc?

I have first (FIRST) hand experience in this and I'm not going to reveal personal information. I suggest everyone who is interested in how their districts are doing to ask for copies of complaint LETTERS. Generally, a "complaint" by citizen standards (a letter or angry phone call, or even a meeting). A "complaint" is a legal term that means that a "concern" has made it all the way through a circuats is route, to the board, who then decides if the issue rises to the level of complaint. Because of the need to keep real estate prices high (more taxes for the base) the amount of complaints in a district is usually, well, nothing. THIS district, I'm PROUD to say, has NEVER had a "complaint" ever!!! against any of it's teachers. Usually a Board or the "command structure" of a local school district will not release any information whatsoever to a parent. If only the parents had something significant they were invested in , or something. Just because their children are entrusted to these strangers doesn't mean they should have any rights. This the STATE!!!!! Bow down and ****. AND SHUT UP!

Bad tenured teachers are indeed hard to fire.

I celebrate the good teachers, but it is a black eye to them - this continued silence...

Molly is my name wrote:

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That sounds like it needs to be changed. Since California is the land of Propositions has anyone looked into changing this? I an curious about your statement " with or without cause". Why would you want to terminate someone if there is no cause?

Of course not, merely pointing out that the reason does not matter, be it fair or foul - a teacher in CA cannot be fired... And foul people who have got credentials are allowed to hurt children for years and years, all in the name of labor solidarity

There are people who are Politically Correct and thus hypersensitive to silly little things.

Berke Breathed did a one month series in Bloom County based on that exact same kind of silliness.

He had people get upset over the phrase "Penquin Lust", when he turned Bill the Cat into a TV Evangelist.

WH Gal wrote:

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Today was the first time I ever heard that word. Apparently there is another meaning or people would not be upset by it.
Yes threads often get off topic. My opinion is that it should not be difficult to fire an employee who is incompetent. There should always be a paperwork trail though to back up your actions, for both the employee and the employer.

In addition, you can have a paperwork trail second to none, but if you're dealing with an arbiter who doesn't truly understand what's going on (and I've seen this while working for the state), you'll never, ever be able to fire the person.

Instead, you'll wind up offering them money to go away.

Georgie B wrote:

<quoted text>Parents have always had their act together.
It's the teachers who are F'd up.

I know you are reacting to the post. You are wrong it's both, but only to a VERY small degree.

There are bad parents and there are bad teachers, most parents are great and are concerned about their childrens well being, sometimes they may react in a passionate way, but the teacher needs to understand they are looking out for their child (and most do). Most teachers go into the profession because they want to help kids, and are passionate learners themselves, and love that moment of epiphany that they get to see on a regular basis.

Everyone needs to quit saying parents **** or teachers ****- a few do, but it's not the norm.

Teachers and parents both have the same end result in mind - a healthy, educated, balanced member of society.

mary wrote:

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I probably work close to 2 hours at night. During summers, I take classes here and there. I only need to start preparing for school around 2 weeks before start date. When I have new ideas for lessons, I get on the computer and write them down so I can incorporate them in my lessons. But summers are not spent working non-stop--the work is more leisurely, which is nice.

Thank you for your answer.

Jack Corsaut wrote:

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Of course not, merely pointing out that the reason does not matter, be it fair or foul - a teacher in CA cannot be fired... And foul people who have got credentials are allowed to hurt children for years and years, all in the name of labor solidarity

I know at least in my district teachers have been fired over the years for inappropriate conduct.

Georgie B wrote:

<quoted text>Parents have always had their act together.
It's the teachers who are F'd up.

you really seem miserable.

reality wrote:

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When teachers start working a full year, with only 10 vacation/sick days and 6 holidays, then it will be considered a FT job. When they start arriving at school and leaving when I arrive and leave work every day, THEN it will be considered a FT job. NO JOB that allows 2 week vacations every 9 weeks and 5 in the summer can be considered FT. Every day I arrive a my workplace as the teachers at the school next door are rolling in. The kids spend 2.5 hours/day outside the classroom at lunch, extras, and recess - during which time they call parents and grade papers. Their parking lot is empty a solid 1.5 hours before I can leave, assuming all work is done. And every month they have at least 1 planning day with no kids to plan out their lessons. They usually only work 2-3 hours those days.

Things may be different where you live. However, In NY teachers and students do not get off for 2 weeks every 9 weeks. There are no two week breaks anywhere in the school calendar except during the summer. In my district the contract calls for the 185 days of work for a teacher. The students are in class 182 days. As a federal employee my work year was 206 days without consideration of sick days. I accumulated 13 sick days a year. There is not all that much difference in the work year of a federal employee and a teacher. Even when I was a manager I rarely brought work home. As the wife of a HS teacher and the mother of an elementary school teacher I saw they brought work home almost every night and it consumed two to three hours. The usually worked for three to four hours every weekend. Summers were not all free time. They were taken up with classes or reviewing new text books that had to be incorporated into their lesson plans.

There are 10 federal holidays in the US. Why don't you seek employment with a company that celebrates them instead of one that only celebrates six? As for only 10 days off for vacation/sick leave that's pretty stingy. Why are you settling for this? Two weeks vacation is usually for entry level employees. I know of no jobs that don't increase the amount of vacation after two or three years on the job. Instead of complaining about the time off that teachers have why don't you attempt to find a job that allows more time off?

reality wrote:

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When teachers start working a full year, with only 10 vacation/sick days and 6 holidays, then it will be considered a FT job. When they start arriving at school and leaving when I arrive and leave work every day, THEN it will be considered a FT job. NO JOB that allows 2 week vacations every 9 weeks and 5 in the summer can be considered FT. Every day I arrive a my workplace as the teachers at the school next door are rolling in. The kids spend 2.5 hours/day outside the classroom at lunch, extras, and recess - during which time they call parents and grade papers. Their parking lot is empty a solid 1.5 hours before I can leave, assuming all work is done. And every month they have at least 1 planning day with no kids to plan out their lessons. They usually only work 2-3 hours those days.

it seems you spend a lot of time watching what goes on next door. are you getting YOUR job done? how can you say how long someone works? are you in the building with them? you have no clue what it takes to be a teacher; you're just looking at the time you imagine they're working/not working. it doesn't have to be 40 hours to be full time; in some states it's 32. you sound very bitter; why don't you change your profession, become a teacher, and have all of the "time" you want?

Georgie B wrote:

<quoted text>Ooh boy.
Nice comeback.
I still stand behind my comments. Do a little research into some pop culture there and you may learn a little something.
Bill Cosby is the one who created that character.

I have direct knowledge having worked in urban schools what that means... so perhaps living is suburbia you think it doesn't mean much. Not my issue... beleive what you will