What Does Proposition 8 Mean for the Future of Gay Marriage?

Telstar wrote:

Perhaps DebJ just wants to feel superior to those who had to come to California from Oklahoma to survive during the Dust Bowl years.
She failed.

The problem with that theory is that DebJ doesn't live in California -- has never lived in California, has only visited San Diego once to see her son graduate from Navy Boot Camp. And most importantly, she has no descendants in California. So she couldn't be a Dust Bowler.

Furthermore, her decedents have had very little or nothing to do with the Dust Bowlers in general. Her immediate family from her grandparents down had nothing to do with the Dust Bowlers. And any Dust Bowler people in her family would be in-laws of distant relatives. Yes, I said in-laws at best. Not blood relatives.

In addition, the thing that proves most that she's not a Dust Bowler's child is she doesn't posses the bigoted, sexist, and racist traits that many children and grandchildren of the Dust Bowlers possess. Apparently, she's all for gay marriage. The End. >;-D

Telstar wrote:

Perhaps DebJ just wants to feel superior to those who had to come to California from Oklahoma to survive during the Dust Bowl years.
She failed.

Oh, and even if she was a Dust Bowler, she couldn't have failed. She's still living isn't she? Every night, we enjoy her company on this charming thread. Peace!

Telstar wrote:

She failed.

Hey Telstar and DebJ and everyone else on both sides of this issue, I found a great video for all of us to watch. It proves that love con conquer hate. This video is about an ex KKK clansman. The story is funny. But watch all of it. It's also very touching. And it brought me to tears after I watched it. No wonder Jesus said to love your enemies and continue to pray for them. No wonder Jesus also said to turn the other cheek.

Enjoy. You may go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch...

The Last Templar wrote:

<quoted text>
Speak for yourself. I am a happily married Roman Catholic, married to the same wonderful woman for over 26 years. Marriage to us is a Blessed Sacrament.

I guess they missed you when they were burning all the others at the stake, huh?

DebJ wrote:

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You didn't read her post thoroughtly, but that's not surprising.
Perhaps you were in a hurry.
Perhaps you simply deny anything that doesn't support your personal views.
I seriously suspect the latter, however I'll reserve judgement.
Basically, I wanted to say that bigotry towards homosexuals (different races, religions, etc.) isn't inborn, it's a learned behaviour. Parents teach it to their children, who pass it on....etc., etc., etc.

Hey DebJ, below is a link to the hottest issue. It's about Prop 8, but with racial tones. It's called "N**gers better not come to West Hollywood!" It's the new and improved version of the Prop 8 thread. LOL!!! Go here: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/los-angeles-c...

ILuvLA wrote:

<quoted text>
Hey DebJ, below is a link to the hottest issue. It's about Prop 8, but with racial tones. It's called "N**gers better not come to West Hollywood!" It's the new and improved version of the Prop 8 thread. LOL!!! Go here: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/los-angeles-c...

LOL..everyday we get closer to making the straight man OBSOLETE!!:

Scientists in Oregon have produced four monkeys using the genetic material of two females, a breakthrough that could lead to the same technique being performed in humans.

perhaps a politically correct gay marriage will call in a typhoon to OR -- where the facts about Mt. St. Helens may well have been known prior to its volcanic eruption (but no emergency oil rigging was sent in)

Telling people they cant get married due to their sexual orientation is like refusing someone marraige becouse they are interracial, they are not protastant, or they have some fetish in the bedroom. I personally think Marraige is between the couple and GOD and not so much about the state, other than for Tax and Family privlage(like hospital visits and decisions when someones SO dies) Why don't people just live there life the way they see fit and mind there own bussiness? I mean freedom and Liberty should cover all americans(unless your choices interfere with someone elses freedom) It seems like if you tell someone they cant get married becouse of your ideals you are a tyrant.

God is always good wrote:

<quoted text>And some only seek bias information to support their own agenda. They offer no sources and evidence, will skip over evidence that refutes their position. Which actually, I guess, makes them a liar.
Lie 1: there is a gay gene. no evidence. response-someday. well, someday is now and gay scientist, Simon LeVay says no gay gene found.
Lie 2: homosexuasl do not commit pedophilia. Obvious lie, they do an so do heterosexuals.
Lie 3: when gays have sex with teenage non-consensual boys that is pederasty and not pedophilia.
Lie 4: one day a white female might be unable to marry the man that she loves. No on 8 commercial.
Lie 5: two men with a son. dads I am not gay. fact is 51% of the time a son raised by two gay men does not become gay.
Lie 6: Homosexuality is not denounced in the Bible. Fact is Leviticus and Romans jsut to name a few have strong denunciations of homosexuality.
Lie 7: I must love the sin, because it is what my child does.
When you lie to yourself, you only seek out that lie.
Truth: Dr. Robert Spitzer says that gays can change, if they have a strong desire and will to do so. Kind of like the work that AA members commit to.

1. Your knowledge and understanding of genetics is too limited for you to be discussing such.
2. There are homosexuals who commit pedophilia. The vast majority of homosexuals are not interested sexually in children at all.
3. You wanna get caught up in semantics? If a gay man has sex with an underage boy, he is breaking the law, just the same as a heterosexual man who has sex with an underage girl.
4. This makes no sense. What are you trying to say? Why would a white female not be able to marry the man that she loves?
5. This makes no sense, syntactically. What are you trying to say? BTW, children raised by gay parents are no more statistically likely to be gay than children raised by gay parents. This is a fact.
6. Until you can read and write ancient Hebrew and Greek fluently, you are in no position to be translating the Bible, a book that you obviously know very little about. And the Bible has absolutely no worth when it comes to governing this country.
7. More pointless babbling.
Dr. Spitzer has no standing in the medical or psychological communities.

ILuvLA wrote:

<quoted text>
Sometime when people choose to state something that is still in metamorphosis they are theorists -- not liars!
I consider even my strongest opponents on this thread as either being misinformed, undereducated in this matter, or advocating a theory. I do NOT consider them liars.
NOBODY on this thread is a deliberate liar!

That statement that "NOBODY on this thread is a deliberate liar!" is not supported evidence in fact.

Generally, I agree with you and many are simply mis- or ill-informed, lacking in education, understanding, comprehension and the like. I agree that is true for many, if not most people posting here.

However, some have been shown direct evidence and then repeated it's opposite. That is a deliberate lie. A conscious choice to not state the fact or truth of the matter. There are some people here, that post such statements with great deliberation.

Eric

Gays are free to enter into marriage with another of the opposite sex. In that sense there is no discrimination against gays marrying. There is discrimination for people of the same sex to do so. It may come to pass that you want to leave your estate to your best friend (same sex) free and clear by marrying her. You can't. This is much more than just a gay freedom, it is a basic freedom. Are you gonna let Uncle Sam decide who you can and cannot marry simply because they're working you for more taxes?

As a gay who has been around, I think we gays are our own worst enemy. The public does not see us cleaning house when we have internal issues, they see them treated like "outcasts".
What the publics sees is a group of, mostly, men who promote sex, can be vicious, are money-hungry and want nothing to do with morality. Now you want them to hand over the sacred institution of marriage?
Sherrrr they will.

I, personally, want to see most conflicts within the gay community made public. The world must see that we all DO NOT like the pride parades or most anything the media shows. Many of us, positively, hate NAMBLA for instance.

If would also help if gays talked about "monogamy" out in the open. If not, why do we want marriage rights?

GayOutcast wrote:

If would also help if gays talked about "monogamy" out in the open. If not, why do we want marriage rights?

But questioning such a commitment is based on a stereotype that gay guys "sleep with anyone and everyone," isn't it?

It's a rhetorical question, ignore me.

GayOutcast wrote:

As a gay who has been around, I think we gays are our own worst enemy. The public does not see us cleaning house when we have internal issues, they see them treated like "outcasts".
What the publics sees is a group of, mostly, men who promote sex, can be vicious, are money-hungry and want nothing to do with morality. Now you want them to hand over the sacred institution of marriage?
Sherrrr they will.
I, personally, want to see most conflicts within the gay community made public. The world must see that we all DO NOT like the pride parades or most anything the media shows. Many of us, positively, hate NAMBLA for instance.

Your absolutely right. It is very refreshing to see a gay person in this forum actually admit the gay community is not made up of a group of well-meaning, persecuted victims.

HappilyCelibateChristian wrote:

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Your absolutely right. It is very refreshing to see a gay person in this forum actually admit the gay community is not made up of a group of well-meaning, persecuted victims.

Um, did you actually read Gay Outcast's post carefully? I think you missed something.

He was trying to say that most gays don't fit the negative stereotypes the media likes to portray. The few bad apples in our bunch may spoil it for the rest of us -- but they in no way represent the majority of us. Most of us are normal, decent, law abiding, tax paying citizens who enjoy monogamous relationships and family life much like yourself.

Most of us dress, talk, and act normally. And we are not pedophiles who endorse seedy organizations like NAMBLA. We're responsible and we also have morals. Some of us are even Christians.

ILuvLA wrote:

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Um, did you actually read Gay Outcast's post carefully? I think you missed something.
He was trying to say that most gays don't fit the negative stereotypes the media likes to portray. The few bad apples in our bunch may spoil it for the rest of us -- but they in no way represent the majority of us. Most of us are normal, decent, law abiding, tax paying citizens who enjoy monogamous relationships and family life much like yourself.
Most of us dress, talk, and act normally. And we are not pedophiles who endorse seedy organizations like NAMBLA. We're responsible and we also have morals. Some of us are even Christians.

That's funny that you address the stereotypes. They're *so moronic* to me that I ignore them; or, I should say: When I see anti-gay stereotypes, I *deliberately* introduce stereotype into my own response to the person, half the time. I have lost all patience in procedurally explaining, explaining, explaining. If a "christian" says gays are promiscuous,*then by the same logic*, the "christians" are haters who spit on the bible and lie through their teeth about god while allying themselves with satan. It's simple logic: Stereotype either fits or it doesn't.

you are not likely to see an average gay person on TV as its not that exciting, funny, or inflametory. America media demands the shock value. thats illustrated by the show "Soup" where its not just the Gays but all of the idiot reality/talk shows are exposed for how crazy TV is.

At the beginning of this post there was talk of equal rights. Let's go with that, with equal rights. Take this beyond gay rights, what about the rights of people that want to sleep with little children, shouldn't society be forced to accept them and their morals and lifestyle? No of course not. Why, because having sex with children is wrong. Equality is not the issue. Is homosexual behavior wrong. The Bible says that it is, but so is adultery, and fornication.

In America we do believe in equal rights, you can have an abortion, though soon you wont be able to decline health care, and gays do have the same rights as Brad and Angelia. If all it is is about getting the same tax breaks as a married couple or health benefits then fight for that. But marriage has from the beginning been a man and a woman. It's not about so called equality just what is right and wrong. No one is saying you can't live like a Hollywood movie star, just leave the institution of marriage alone.

1Barney wrote:

At the beginning of this post there was talk of equal rights. Let's go with that, with equal rights. Take this beyond gay rights, what about the rights of people that want to sleep with little children, shouldn't society be forced to accept them and their morals and lifestyle? No of course not. Why, because having sex with children is wrong. Equality is not the issue. Is homosexual behavior wrong. The Bible says that it is, but so is adultery, and fornication.
In America we do believe in equal rights, you can have an abortion, though soon you wont be able to decline health care, and gays do have the same rights as Brad and Angelia. If all it is is about getting the same tax breaks as a married couple or health benefits then fight for that. But marriage has from the beginning been a man and a woman. It's not about so called equality just what is right and wrong. No one is saying you can't live like a Hollywood movie star, just leave the institution of marriage alone.

Well Philosophically I consider myself a libertarian. I believe that each Individual has the right to do anything they want so long as it doesen't infringe on someone elses' freedom. That basic outline for example, you are not free to steal other peoples money. And the ridiculous example of choosing a child as a spouse is absurd. Why should I care if my neighbors are gay? if it makes me feel uncomfterable then I simply dont visit them. Who am I to tell them they cant do that. If I was their minister and dident feel it was right, and that its a sin, then I would tell them I would not preform the marraige rights. but they can go somewhere else and find someone who is ok with that.(as a minister I would support that, they might not live the way I would aplaud, but I would applaud them in seeking a spiritual direction.) as far as the ngay neighbor example, lets say they were a straight couple without morals.How can they be allowed to marry when they dont love each other or abuse their children? Marraige is between the couple and their spiritual community. between God and man. the only reason the State should be involved in those decisions is to recognize the rights for each spouse.(like Hospital visitation and decision making for the spouse that's a patient, economic and tax reasons, that sort of thing) Otherwise though I am spiritual(Christian) I think there is a reason we have a seperation of church and state (or else why would you allow any one aside from Christians get married?) Thats just my Opinion.