Holy Moses! PBS documentary suggests Exodus not real

Okay let me first rescue poor Steve's logic, which is being attacked left and right. The idea is that we can't see the wind, but we can see the effects of the wind. It blows leaves and trees and sand and, in the event of intense heat, moving air is able to bend light and blur an image. In the same way, we can't see God, but we can see the effects of God all around us. I have incidentally had a number of miraculous things happen in my life that cannot be explained in any other way. Okay i'm not going to make an extensive argument, i just wanted to clarify what Steve was trying to say.

In response to History Buff, no i don't want the documentary off the air, and like i said, i don't mind opposition. I'm very fond, actually, of controversy. However, you must agree that PBS is not really questioning the biblical account. Questioning might involve presenting a new view, setting up both sides and leaving viewers to decide. PBS is trying to DISPROVE the biblical account. I think as a public broadcasting station they ought to be more unbiased. that is all.

A quick message to Freethinker. I would encourage you as a fellow seeker of truth to take the extra step and look at some of the Old Testament prophesies that Christians have supposedly squeezed Jesus into almost-sorta fitting. The two big steps in the scientific method are to prove your hypothesis, and then attempt to prove the antithesis of your hypothesis. You have to look at both sides.

Now, as I said I encourage you to look at the situation with an unbiased mind. However, allow me to give you a small piece of my bias, myself having explored the situation thoroughly.(but don't take my word for it, find out for yourself!). Now you'll have to check up on this, because it's been awhile since I looked it up myself. I've read somewhere that a college statistics class was given the task of determining the probability that any particular man could have fulfilled just 8 of the prophecies that Jesus is proven to have fulfilled. And not the quirky, religious, hokus-pokus ones either. Prophesies like where he was born, the lineage of his mother, the lineage of his dad, places he visited, the fact that he was crucified, things like that. Most if not all of the fulfillments i believe were recorded in extra-biblical accounts like government records, censuses and whatnot. The probability they came up with was something like 1/10^40000. One over ten to the forty thousandth power. Now i'd have to look up all the facts again, but i think that's pretty cool. Again, though, find out for yourself! don't believe me. seek the truth! thanx for reading.

Now allow me to respond to History Buff again. You asked me to share some of the evidence that exists. Now you spoke about the exodus, though I was speaking of the old testament in general. However, don't think i'm going to blow you off, because evidence of the exodus is in existence.

I must be honest. Most of the evidence I've heard of was from archaeologists in documentaries or from speakers, so I don't have any on hand. However, I have begun searching to find some exact statistics etc.
I have found some evidence, and will return with more. But for the moment this is very interesting. I am reading that there was a certain set of papyrus scrolls discovered in Egypt in the area of Memphis sometime before the year 1828. They were first translated to English in 1909 by Prof. Alan H. Gardiner. The account on the scrolls told of a terrible national catastrophe in Egypt, and many of the writings tell of events very similar to the 10 plagues as depicted in the book of Exodus. Here is what the web site I am reading says:

"A comparison of several key passages from the Biblical Book of Exodus with the ancient Egyptian papyrus reveals remarkable correspondences and parallels that point to a real historical catastrophe.

1. The Plague of Blood
In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:5-6, it says: Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. Compare this with the Book of Exodus 7:21: There was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:10, it says: The River is Blood. Compare with Exodus 7:20: All the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:10, it says: Men shrank from tasting...and thirst for water. Compare with Exodus 7:24: And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

2. The Plague of Hail
Ipuwer papyrus 9:23: The fire ran along the ground. There was hail, and fire mingled with the hail. Exodus 9:25: And the hail smote every herb on the field, and brake every tree in the field.

3. The Plague of Darkness
Ipuwer Papyrus 9:11: The land is not light. Exodus 10:22: And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

4. The Plague of Egyptian Cattle
Ipuwer papyrus 5:5: All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan. Exodus 9:3: Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be grievous murrain (disease).

5. The Plague of the Firstborn of Egypt
Ipuwer Papyrus 2:13: He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. Exodus 12:27: He (the angel of the Lord) smote the Egyptians. Ipuwer Papyrus 4:3: Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. Exodus 12:29: At midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt. Ipuwer Papyrus 6:12: Forsooth, the children of the princes are cast out in the streets, Exodus 12:30: There was not a house where there was not one dead.

6. Response of the Egyptians to the Loss of their First born
Ipuwer Papyrus 3:14: It is groaning that is throughout the land, mingled with lamentations. Exodus 12:30: There was a great cry in Egypt."

This is recorded from http://www.konig.org/wc52.htm . Now I will admit that this site is INCREDIBLY biased toward the Christian viewpoint, so I cannot confirm these findings. I would personally like to hear the opinion of a nonChristian historian before I determine the authenticity or relavence of the scrolls.

Wow, the fundies crying in their soup are hilarious. Grow up people! Everyone should know that the stories in the Bible are not literally true, they are myths. Snakes do not talk, The earth did not flood, Moses did not part the seas, Joshua did not send the sun backward. Just how ignorant are you people?

I personally find it interesting that while several people have attacked me personally and called me an ignorant fool, no one has really made a claim against any arguments that I have proposed, unless you include saying "gosh you're stupid" in a number of different ways.

Time for everyone to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales. Superstition runs rampant in this state, and it is no wonder why we are at the bottom of education year after year.

I guess it is okay for you fools to try to get creationism into classrooms, but the second scientific inquiry makes its way into your silly belief system, you cry foul.

Typical chrisitian hypocrites. Petty and stupid.

Okay just to reiterate, another attack, but no argument.

Education didn't work with you people, what makes you think an argument will?

Remember this: You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Find out who indoctrinated you, and be VERY angry with them. They did irrepairable damage!

If you had read any of my previous posts you would have read that i have indeed arrived at my faith by reason, and I am not alone. Despite the fact that you don't agree with me, Christianity is not really an unwarrented thing to believe. It seems to be the opinion of many that the educated and the professional are all atheists or free thinkers, while Christiannity is reserved for immovable religious fanatics in the hicktowns of the Midwest. But this is indeed far from the truth. I know of many respectable historians, cosmologists, biologists, university professors, etc. who all share my belief and not out of "indocrtination." They found it by reason and a search for truth.

I think that you and many who read this would be interested or at least remotely intrigued by a book that I have read in the last couple years. It was an encouragement to me, and may come at a surprise to many Christianity bashers. The book is entitled A Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel. Now I saw you just roll your eyes, assuming that this is just another attempt at logic by those hypocritical Christian fundamentalist idiots, but hold on for just a second.

Lee Stobel, according to his book, was both a journalist and a staunch atheist. Tired of petty and ridiculous religious people like myself trying to convince him of things, Strobel set out to use his journalistic skills to prove that Christianity was a hoax, a fraud, and that the Bible was a whimsical compilation of literary works that stemmed from legends and people's imagination. After months of research, however, he began to be troubled, as he was confronted with evidence of the exact opposite. Eventually, he concluded to his own astonishment and demise that the writings of the Bible were undeniably accurate, that he could not reasonably deny their devine purpose, and his life was changed forever. For instance, did you know that there is more textual historical evidence of Christ's resurrection (dating within under 100 years of His death) than there is for the existence of Julius Caesar? I know even now that you are laughing to yourself, but if you are a true seeker of truth you will pick up the book and give it a read, even if it is just to prove me wrong.

And you think it is mere chance that religous beliefs are so geographically correlated? Run a statistics program on that.

If you were born in India, you would be a Hindu, if you were born in Iran, you would be a Muslim.

Your belief is merely a function of where you were born.

Your prophecies are vague, some are self fulfilling, and others were added after the fact. Watch the PBS program with the same "open mind" you had while pretending to reason yourself into christianity.

Add up generation times in the bible. Come up with what it considers the age of the earth to be. Index that with current scientific knowledge.
You will find that, yes, christianity really is an unwarranted belief system.

You say you have faith, but you arrived at it thru reason.....think about that for a while. You either have faith, or evidence. Not both.

Which do you have?

Why are xtians so afraid of truth? And why do they squeal "blasphemy" when someone asks hard questions and sines probing light on a collection of writing penned by Bronze Age goat herders and camel drivers?

Why do xtians feel so threatened? Isn't their alleged god enough of a god to take care of himself? Are they afraid the "unsaved" might hear and believe the scientific evidence instead of the xtian message? If that is the case, if the bible and its message are indeed truth, would not the greater truth prevail?

What are they afraid of?

I was given the book "A case for christ" by an ex girlfriends mother.

I read the whole book. You can smell the authors bias a mile away.

His book is about how to build fishy arguments that "may" hold up in a court case. However, we know that the function of the courts isn't to find "truth"...it is to find fault between 2 parties.

I've read your book, try reading mind. I will buy you a copy of the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins if you would like.

Actually i'd love that, but I'm gonna buy it myself, cuz i'm not in the habit of writing my address on a public post.
However, to say I have faith without evidence is to call me a liar. I have a very scientific mind, and were my faith not supported by both science and history i would absolutely refuse to believe it.

Hey man let me apologize, because I just read over my last post and it sounds very bull-headed and aggressive even though it was not intended to be. I was just feeling a little defensive, because the "scientific knowledge" that you mentioned is not at all new to me. I have examined the issues myself and determined that most are only skin-deep. Honestly, I felt that you thought I was stupid or uneducated--which you may think, i don't know--and that's why I got all defensive.
Anyway, I'm sorry for snapping, and I would appreciate it if you could email me at sk8rsam224@yahoo.com. If you'd like to have a serious conversation about specific scientific or historical issues, or if you're willing to hear some of the many amazing things that have happened to me with regards to my faith, that is the way to do it. It's very difficult to stay on a single topic for very long in a public forum, especially so controversial a one as this.

Sorry again and I look forward to your email,
--SAM

Just Lil O Me wrote:

Amazing. NOVA has always been anti-Christian and now can add being anti-Semite as well. If it were any other religion they were bashing, there would be a huge outcry. I bet they don't to anything against Muslims, Wiccans, Hindus, etc. But Christians are open game. What hypocrites.

To paraphrase Colbert, reality has a well-known anti-Christian bias.

Sam Kephart wrote:

In response to History Buff, no i don't want the documentary off the air, and like i said, i don't mind opposition. I'm very fond, actually, of controversy. However, you must agree that PBS is not really questioning the biblical account. Questioning might involve presenting a new view, setting up both sides and leaving viewers to decide. PBS is trying to DISPROVE the biblical account. I think as a public broadcasting station they ought to be more unbiased. that is all.

Reality is biased against religion...

Reason wrote:

Why are xtians so afraid of truth? And why do they squeal "blasphemy" when someone asks hard questions and sines probing light on a collection of writing penned by Bronze Age goat herders and camel drivers?
Why do xtians feel so threatened? Isn't their alleged god enough of a god to take care of himself? Are they afraid the "unsaved" might hear and believe the scientific evidence instead of the xtian message? If that is the case, if the bible and its message are indeed truth, would not the greater truth prevail?
What are they afraid of?

Reality.

It's amusing how the liberal media is tolerant to a fault of every religion, cult, lifestyle and behavior under the sun EXCEPT for Christianity. Christianity is to them laughable, ridiculous and finally, unprovable. Unless they have 'The' body with indisputably verifiable identification and a direct family line from which DNA can be matched, its all just myth.
Morality and the prospect of accountability is a frightening concept to liberals and a definite cramp to their style.