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Since: Jan 11

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#1
Jun 11, 2012
 

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In this thread we will ascertain from the scriptures, the identity, the purposes and role of this group of heavenly Elders. To the dispensationalists and many others in Christendom this remains a mystery.

Since: Jan 11

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Jun 11, 2012
 

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The first mention of these 24 Elders are found in Rev.4:4 when they're presented as being seen around the throne of God.

It is not the 1st time that mankind were allowed visions of God's throne. Isaiah 6:1-5, Micaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel were given visions of God's throne Ezekiel 1,10 Daniel 7:9-14,22 none of these prophet ever describes seeing these Elders. It is ibvious these Elder's appearance is an addition to the throne room of God AFTER the time of Daniel.

Since: Jan 11

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Jun 11, 2012
 

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There are 5 clues that reveals the identity of these 24 Elders.

1. As I've mentioned before, the appearance of these Elders not seen by neither Ezekiel or Daniel whom were comtempories of the other, but was indeed SEEN by John indictates that this addition didn't take place until AFTER the time of Daniel.

2. The number of the 24 Elders whoms the scriptures states are kings and priests of God Rev. 5:10 appears to be the fulfillment of the anti-type of the type, the division of the priesthood as shown in 1 Chron. 24:1-19. These 24 Elders are the "firstfruits" of the priesthood of Christ.

3. These 24 Elders are described wearing white rainment, wearing crowns of gold and sitting in thrones. These items and privileges have "all" been promised to the saints of God Rev. 3:22 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne"

4. Rev. 5:9 seems to indictate that the 24 Elders identifies themselves as having been redeemed from the earth. Outside of Enoch, Moses and Elijah the bible reveals in Matt. 27:52,53 other unnamed saints were resurrection when Christ rose from the grave. Eph. 4:8 affirms this and states "when Christ ascended up on high He lead captivity captures and gaves gifts to men" This group made up of both translated and resurrected individuals could possibly be part of the 24 Elders.

5. Angels are never called or even considered as kings and priest in scriptures. These descriptions are only applicably to God's people.
Deacon Fry

Temecula, CA

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Jun 11, 2012
 

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They are a special order of angels. No humans ever ascended to heaven and never will
Jesus said so.

Since: Jan 11

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#5
Jun 11, 2012
 

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Deacon Fry wrote:
They are a special order of angels. No humans ever ascended to heaven and never will
Jesus said so.
Deacon Frye,

I'm afraid you severely misrepresent that text which Christ speaks in John 3:13. He simply expressing that no man has ascended back from heaven with truth to impart.

If you remember the subject of the conversation between Christ and Nicodemus centered in the mysteries the Holy Spirit and the new birth. John 3:12 "if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?

In other words, Nicodemus would have a harder time accepting Christ's words about heavenly things because no man had even there to come back to report on it.

The scriptures gives us several undeniable proofs that men has been translated and resurrected into heaven.

Stuff

Brampton, Canada

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#6
Jun 12, 2012
 

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Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
Deacon Frye,
I'm afraid you severely misrepresent that text which Christ speaks in John 3:13. He simply expressing that no man has ascended back from heaven with truth to impart.
If you remember the subject of the conversation between Christ and Nicodemus centered in the mysteries the Holy Spirit and the new birth. John 3:12 "if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?
In other words, Nicodemus would have a harder time accepting Christ's words about heavenly things because no man had even there to come back to report on it.
The scriptures gives us several undeniable proofs that men has been translated and resurrected into heaven.
Foolishness! Utter foolishness!

To know who ascended with Christ, it is necessary to read the book of the Acts of the Apostles IN THE BIBLE! It is time to throw away the fraudulent testimonies of EGW.
Deacon Fry

Columbus, GA

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Enoch and Elijah are both fast asleep in their graves and not in heaven! Heaven will come down to us in Rev 21. No human has ever been there and no reason for anyone to go there. The EARTH is our abode. Look forward to the earthly millennium and forget what Ellen said about OldEnoch on Pluto. Rev 5:10
birdman

Mattoon, IL

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#8
Jun 12, 2012
 
Mr_Know it all wrote:
There are 5 clues that reveals the identity of these 24 Elders.
1. As I've mentioned before, the appearance of these Elders not seen by neither Ezekiel or Daniel whom were comtempories of the other, but was indeed SEEN by John indictates that this addition didn't take place until AFTER the time of Daniel.
2. The number of the 24 Elders whoms the scriptures states are kings and priests of God Rev. 5:10 appears to be the fulfillment of the anti-type of the type, the division of the priesthood as shown in 1 Chron. 24:1-19. These 24 Elders are the "firstfruits" of the priesthood of Christ.
3. These 24 Elders are described wearing white rainment, wearing crowns of gold and sitting in thrones. These items and privileges have "all" been promised to the saints of God Rev. 3:22 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne"
4. Rev. 5:9 seems to indictate that the 24 Elders identifies themselves as having been redeemed from the earth. Outside of Enoch, Moses and Elijah the bible reveals in Matt. 27:52,53 other unnamed saints were resurrection when Christ rose from the grave. Eph. 4:8 affirms this and states "when Christ ascended up on high He lead captivity captures and gaves gifts to men" This group made up of both translated and resurrected individuals could possibly be part of the 24 Elders.
5. Angels are never called or even considered as kings and priest in scriptures. These descriptions are only applicably to God's people.
Number 3 and 4 tells I believe who they are and where they came from.

the key words in there, describe [firstfruits, white robes, crowns] are an example that shows who they are

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

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#9
Jun 12, 2012
 

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birdman wrote:
<quoted text>
Number 3 and 4 tells I believe who they are and where they came from.
the key words in there, describe [firstfruits, white robes, crowns] are an example that shows who they are
Birdman,

I don't see any relateably connect with Numbers 3,4. Elaborate on this conclusion.

Numbers 3,4 doesn't mention the word firstfrfruits but firstborn this word according to several bible dictionaries shows them to have two different meanings.

The Levitical priesthood never wear crowns nor were ever called called royal.

The close term that can be made is found in the OT when they are called a kingdom of priest a holy nation and this was inclusive to ALL those whom have joined the Children of Israel to serve God by faith.

Rev. 5:9 seems to indicate that these 24 Elders taken as firstfruits from the earth may have been redeemed out of "every tribe, tougue, people and nation."

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

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#10
Jun 12, 2012
 

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These Elders purpose seem to be to serve as officers of the court. Some have even "assume" they are a symbolic representive jury to add their testimonies to the collection of evidence.

The role that these Elders in the vision in helping John is quite unique for Rev. 5:5 reveals that one of the Elders assures John that Christ is able to open the book of seven seals after it had been declared that no man is worthy.

Rev. 5:6 Christ the Lamb whom have been slain was seen in the midst of these 24 Elders.

Rev. 7:13,14 one of the Elders reveals to John who is this sealed great multitude consist.

Rev. 11:15-18 John records the 24 Elders which make the announcement of the seventh trumpet saying it's time for the dead to be judged.

Rev. 19:1-4 John is shown the 24 Elders that falls down and worship at the judgment of the GREAT WHORE.

birdman

Mattoon, IL

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#11
Jun 12, 2012
 
Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
Birdman,
I don't see any relateably connect with Numbers 3,4. Elaborate on this conclusion.
Numbers 3,4 doesn't mention the word firstfrfruits but firstborn this word according to several bible dictionaries shows them to have two different meanings.
The Levitical priesthood never wear crowns nor were ever called called royal.
The close term that can be made is found in the OT when they are called a kingdom of priest a holy nation and this was inclusive to ALL those whom have joined the Children of Israel to serve God by faith.
Rev. 5:9 seems to indicate that these 24 Elders taken as firstfruits from the earth may have been redeemed out of "every tribe, tougue, people and nation."
Sorry I meant the numbers of your questions.

As I write this I am laughing at the way I posted my response.

I can see the confusion
Kingfisher

Gulf Breeze, FL

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Deacon Fry wrote:
They are a special order of angels. No humans ever ascended to heaven and never will
Jesus said so.
You are right. No Scripture to prove the contrary! Jesus does not lie. It all happens right here ON EARTH! First the Earthly Millennium when Jesus will sit on His father DAVID's throne (any other time this could happen?) and rule from Jerusalem, with 12 disciples ALSO sitting on thrones RULING over the 12 tribes (any other time this could happen?)and then, only AFTER HELL, the New Jerusalem comes down with God the Father.
Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

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#13
Jun 12, 2012
 

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Mr_Know it all wrote:
In this thread we will ascertain from the scriptures, the identity, the purposes and role of this group of heavenly Elders. To the dispensationalists and many others in Christendom this remains a mystery.
First of all, the book John wrote was called "Revelation" not "Revelations". It is ONE prophecy that the Father gave to His Son because Jesus had said that He did not know the time or the day and the hour that He would come back again to this earth.

But Rev. 1:1 clearly states that now Jesus does know this time and wanted ONLY His bondservants who are now living in the last generation of this earth's history, to know the exact same thing as His Father told Him. He did this by giving it to His angel who then gave it to John (an eyewitness of Jesus' ministry) so that John would write it down (it was not meant for John to understand or anyone else back then too), so that those of 'us' who are bondservants can now read it and hear it from the ONE person found in Matthew 24:45 (the Elijah type to come) and now know when Jesus will come, like a thief AND the last event called the coming in the clouds.

The 24 Elders are humans that have been taken to heaven like Moses, Elijah and others raised from the dead when Jesus was raised and they are the 'jury' for those who are judged.

By the way, this same number is a traditional number for a true commonlaw jury and it was cut in half by statute law (man made law) to make it easier to find a jury. Now they have cut that in half to 6 in many state courts. But the fact is, they got this number from those 24 Elders found in Revelation.
Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

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#14
Jun 12, 2012
 
Deacon Fry wrote:
They are a special order of angels. No humans ever ascended to heaven and never will
Jesus said so.
deaconfry, please show us where Jesus said this as I have not been able to find it. Yes, in John 3:13 we have Jesus saying this but He was referring to Himself being the true teacher as also descending back to this earth to teach or testify to the real truth. This, then must be taken in the complete context as we already know that Enoch, Moses and Elijah were taken to heaven earlier. Matthew 17:3 shows us that Moses and Elijah did, however, descend to this earth for the transfiguration--AFTER Jesus said what He did in John 3.

So Decon Fry, please show us where you find where Jesus said that NO ONE (humans) will ever ascend into heaven? Thanks
Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
Birdman,
I don't see any relateably connect with Numbers 3,4. Elaborate on this conclusion.
Numbers 3,4 doesn't mention the word firstfrfruits but firstborn this word according to several bible dictionaries shows them to have two different meanings.
The Levitical priesthood never wear crowns nor were ever called called royal.
The close term that can be made is found in the OT when they are called a kingdom of priest a holy nation and this was inclusive to ALL those whom have joined the Children of Israel to serve God by faith.
Rev. 5:9 seems to indicate that these 24 Elders taken as firstfruits from the earth may have been redeemed out of "every tribe, tougue, people and nation."
Rev. 5:9-10 is where you see that Jesus' blood purchased 1) a Kingdom (of Heaven), and 2) Priests. It does NOT say 'kings and priests nor does it say kingdom of priests. It is very specific in exatly what it does say.

The "Priests" represent the 144,000 who are the bondservants of Jesus just the same as they were for Israel. The Priest tribe belonged to God and therefore did NOT own land. They are sealed by God before the time of trouble starts and they wake up the sleeping Kingdom--the ten virgins. That is the event called "the coming like a thief".

The "Kingdom" represents the Kingdom of Heaven today as we see in the ten virgin prophecy in Matthew 25:1-13. They are the servants for the Bride (to help get the bride ready for the wedding who are found in Rev. 7:9-15, ready during the time of trouble.)

Therefore, the 24 Elders are not and could not be among the 'kingdom' nor the priests found in Rev. 5-9-10.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Kingfisher wrote:
<quoted text>You are right. No Scripture to prove the contrary! Jesus does not lie. It all happens right here ON EARTH! First the Earthly Millennium when Jesus will sit on His father DAVID's throne (any other time this could happen?) and rule from Jerusalem, with 12 disciples ALSO sitting on thrones RULING over the 12 tribes (any other time this could happen?)and then, only AFTER HELL, the New Jerusalem comes down with God the Father.
Notice the proof you bring. 0

By all means I suggest you two put your heads together and supplied the scriptural evidence that angels are ever called elders. As well as provide the texts that points out angels wearing crowns and sitting on thrones. Especially angels that have victor's crown/stephanos for being overcomers.

The simple fact of the matter is that this, these texts simply doesn't exist.

So far neither one of you have show the ability or knowledge to disproven a single point that I've presented from scripture.

I'm afraid your dispensationalism teachings have you all confused and fustrated about what's supposed to occur in the last days.

In regards to your confusion of the God's people literally ruling over God's people Christ dismisses this mispreceived thought. Matt. 20:25,26

"Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall NOT be so among you."

God is not a respector of persons. Acts 10:34

The promise to sit in dominion with Him is inclusive to all of God's people.

Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am now set down with my Father in His throne."

Understand this my friend, we're kings in a generic sense that we are co-inheritors with Christ.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

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#17
Jun 12, 2012
 
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> Rev. 5:9-10 is where you see that Jesus' blood purchased 1) a Kingdom (of Heaven), and 2) Priests. It does NOT say 'kings and priests nor does it say kingdom of priests. It is very specific in exatly what it does say.
The "Priests" represent the 144,000 who are the bondservants of Jesus just the same as they were for Israel. The Priest tribe belonged to God and therefore did NOT own land. They are sealed by God before the time of trouble starts and they wake up the sleeping Kingdom--the ten virgins. That is the event called "the coming like a thief".
The "Kingdom" represents the Kingdom of Heaven today as we see in the ten virgin prophecy in Matthew 25:1-13. They are the servants for the Bride (to help get the bride ready for the wedding who are found in Rev. 7:9-15, ready during the time of trouble.)
Therefore, the 24 Elders are not and could not be among the 'kingdom' nor the priests found in Rev. 5-9-10.
RR you must either have trouble reading or comprehending.

When did I ever state that Rev. 5:9,10 the 24 Elders are a kingdom of priest? I did indeed STATES what this text says that they the 24 elders are kings and priests of God.

Your theology is routinely erractic and shaky at best. These 24 elders are not literal priests for there is only one mediator between God and men. 1 Tim. 3:16 Never does the scriptures states or even hints that the saints follow after the order of Melchizedek. The 24 Elders is representative of all of God's people

Allow me to tutor you:

I hate to break the news to you but The HEARD number of 144,000 as found in Rev. 7:5 is actually the SEEN innumberable number of verse 9.for the rest of the chapter mades no distinct between the two. These two supposely groups are actually one and the same.

Rev.7 is the main key to the identity of the 144,000. An example of this same methodology usage can be found in Rev.1:10,12,13

The HEARD number is affirmed as being the SEEN innumberable number for Rev. 14:1-3 reveals that the 144,000 voice were the sound of "many waters". The term "many waters" in prophecy are stated to be peoples, multitudes, nations and tougues.

compare this with Rev. 7:9 the great multitude which are describes make up of nations, tribes, people and tongues.

Brace yourself but Rev. 14 further reveals that this symbolic number of 144,000 will be given the distinction of presenting the "present truth" end-time three angels message to the world.

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which is not of this fold them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one folf, and one flock."

Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

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#18
Jun 12, 2012
 

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Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
RR you must either have trouble reading or comprehending.
When did I ever state that Rev. 5:9,10 the 24 Elders are a kingdom of priest? I did indeed STATES what this text says that they the 24 elders are kings and priests of God.
Your theology is routinely erractic and shaky at best. These 24 elders are not literal priests for there is only one mediator between God and men. 1 Tim. 3:16 Never does the scriptures states or even hints that the saints follow after the order of Melchizedek. The 24 Elders is representative of all of God's people
Allow me to tutor you:
I hate to break the news to you but The HEARD number of 144,000 as found in Rev. 7:5 is actually the SEEN innumberable number of verse 9.for the rest of the chapter mades no distinct between the two. These two supposely groups are actually one and the same.
Rev.7 is the main key to the identity of the 144,000. An example of this same methodology usage can be found in Rev.1:10,12,13
The HEARD number is affirmed as being the SEEN innumberable number for Rev. 14:1-3 reveals that the 144,000 voice were the sound of "many waters". The term "many waters" in prophecy are stated to be peoples, multitudes, nations and tougues.
compare this with Rev. 7:9 the great multitude which are describes make up of nations, tribes, people and tongues.
Brace yourself but Rev. 14 further reveals that this symbolic number of 144,000 will be given the distinction of presenting the "present truth" end-time three angels message to the world.
John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which is not of this fold them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one folf, and one flock."
Thanks for your teaching me what you believe to be the truth. But it does appear that your bible is not the same as the ones that I use to establish truth. The NASB has Rev. 5:9-10 as Jesus purchasing a Kingdom AND Priests. Why?

Allow me to teach you if you can handle it. The Atonement process was a 'picture' of what was going to happen at the very end of the world. There were three steps for cleansing of sin.

1) The High Priest was the first one to have his sins cleansed prior to anyone else. If he did not have this done, then no one else could. Jesus was our High Priest and He said He became sanctified (cleansed) in John 17.

2) The second step were the whole Priest tribe to have their sins cleansed. Without them all haveing their sins cleansed, those in the other tribes (the Kingdom of Heaven/Israel) could not have their sins cleansed. Therefore, the 144,000 are the bondservants found in Rev. 1:1 and 7:1-3. Notice that they become sealed by God prior to the start of the 'time of trouble'? This proves that they are not the same as the numberless multitude found in Rev. 7:9-15 because this group is not numbered and they become saved during the time of trouble. This is the last group--the bride.

3) The last was the corporate group ( but they must individually comply) known as the KOH, or the Kingdom of Israel. It is there job to get the numberless group found in Rev. 7:9-15 ready during the time of trouble. Therefore, the 5 wise virgins are represented by this group called "Kingdom" in Rev. 5:9-10.

4) The Bride can only be saved by the works and deeds of the Saints, them being the 144k and 5 wise virgins. Rev. 19:7-8. Please notice that NONE OF THEM are ever saved by grace.

You will find all three of these groups, the 144k, the 5 wise and the bride in Rev. 17:14.

This whole process totally agrees with how the Atonement process works. enjoy.

4) The scape goat was then sent out to the wilderness and NOT killed. Thi
Rockroller

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Oh, the scape goat was not killed representing the world's kingdoms who are not judged until the time of trouble starts and then people from all races, kingdoms, religions, tongues, come out of thee words during the first 36 or 37 monrha of the time of trouble and this group is the un-nubered group found in Rev. 7:9-15, them being the bride.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

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Jun 12, 2012
 

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Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> Thanks for your teaching me what you believe to be the truth. But it does appear that your bible is not the same as the ones that I use to establish truth. The NASB has Rev. 5:9-10 as Jesus purchasing a Kingdom AND Priests. Why?
Allow me to teach you if you can handle it. The Atonement process was a 'picture' of what was going to happen at the very end of the world. There were three steps for cleansing of sin.
1) The High Priest was the first one to have his sins cleansed prior to anyone else. If he did not have this done, then no one else could. Jesus was our High Priest and He said He became sanctified (cleansed) in John 17.
2) The second step were the whole Priest tribe to have their sins cleansed. Without them all haveing their sins cleansed, those in the other tribes (the Kingdom of Heaven/Israel) could not have their sins cleansed. Therefore, the 144,000 are the bondservants found in Rev. 1:1 and 7:1-3. Notice that they become sealed by God prior to the start of the 'time of trouble'? This proves that they are not the same as the numberless multitude found in Rev. 7:9-15 because this group is not numbered and they become saved during the time of trouble. This is the last group--the bride.
4) The Bride can only be saved by the works and deeds of the Saints, them being the 144k and 5 wise virgins. Rev. 19:7-8. Please notice that NONE OF THEM are ever saved by grace.
You will find all three of these groups, the 144k, the 5 wise and the bride in Rev. 17:14.
This whole process totally agrees with how the Atonement process works. enjoy.
4) The scape goat was then sent out to the wilderness and NOT killed. Thi
RR,

though you may have fallen for the lie that only certain portion of the scriptures are inspired it clearly reveals that we have all have been purchased or redeem by the blood of Christ so the logical you're using is a muted point.

Acts 20: 28 .."the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood."

Eph. 1: 7 "In whom we've been redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His GRACE.

Let me deal with your alleged seperation of the high priest offering apart from the general body of priests. This is actual one offering in the form of a bullock as found in Lev. 16:6

"And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering for himself AND for his house."

I have already disproven your limited understanding of the 144,000 being literal with scriptures already and BTW Rev. 1:1 is use in reference to all of God's people. Rev. 7 is definitely not distinguishing two seperate groups but actually are mention as one whole as Rev. 14:1-3 confirms. Rev. 7 reveals it is the SEEN INNUMBERABLE multitude that are seen before God's throne and serve him day and night as priest.

It is this symbolic 144,000 that are given the awesome but privilege responsibility to presenting the three angels message of Rev. 14 to the world in these last days. Unfortunately for you these messages remains a mystery.

Your silly comments about GRACE not being meritous is pure nonsense and only shows that you've a lot to learn about the "righteousness by faith".

Eph.2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His own begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

I'm afraid your atonement process doesn't fit any legitimate church teaching that I know of.

Who taught you such foolishness I'm curious to know??

This website would be a great service to you.

www.bibleschools.com

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