Exposing Anti-Mormonism and their Tactics

MrZip wrote:

<quoted text>
Im pretty open minded, i certainly dont mind talking about it, but to be honest im not really looking. I'm happy with where im at regarding god.

Hi MrZip,
How are you? Glad to see that you are still checking in from time to time. It's great to know that the LDS have friends out there. It's a conforting thought. Rhyno is also considered a friend which has nothing to do with believing the same as we do but everything with respect. I think there is lot to learn from each other the greatest is tolerance which is what the Savior would want.
We're in Utah and decided to move to the Heber Valley. It is beautiful here. Have a fantabulous day.
HR

Justin Martyr Jr wrote:

Part 2
Now I don't know of any Mormon that makes it a point to charge their critics with being involved with Voo Doo, or the occult because the triangle is used in Voo Doo rites, & the occult use triangles too.
The critics use the triangle to illustrate how Jesus is God, but not the Father. The Father is God, but is not the Son; or the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is God but is not the Father & the Son. But they are "one God."
It was because many couldn't understand how three could be one, that symbols were developed to try & help. The father was believed by many early apologists to not have a body, a difference then with traditional LDS beliefs. However, Christ did have a body, which was something that early anti-Christians poked fun of. A common symbol for the Father was just an extending hand out of heaven. This hand is often grasped in ascensions into heaven of Christ, saints & prophets,(Temple type of symbolism?!).
Other symbols were three rabbits' ears connected. 3 in 1 headed God on 1 body. 3 faces on 1 head, like in Asian cultures.(Could it then be argued Christianity "borrowed" from Asian trinity?)
Three circles, like what Led Zepplin use, & the occult use, three connected circle. Three stars,
triangles, fishes, hand grips, were part of the trinity symbolism. So while critics mock & vilify the LDS' temple symbolism, they settle for left over fragments of them, in their trinity symbols. In some of the other branches of Christianity which had rejected the creed, they depicted the Godhead as being 3 separate personages, or three men.
Geoffrey Barraclough, The Christian World,(London: Thames & Hudson, 1981), p.10; Roland H.
Bainton, Behold The Christ,(Harper, 1974), p.203, fig.s 231-233; George Every, Christian Legends,
Library of the World's Myths & Legends,(New York: Peter Betrick Books, 1970, ed., 1987), pp.18 & 20;
Frederick Buechner, The Faces of Jesus,(New York: Simon & Schuster, 1974), p.216; Text by Gabriel
Bise, Trans. by G. Ivins & D. MacRae, The Illuminated Naples Bible (Old Testament), 14th Century A.D. Manuscript,(Cresent Books, Distributed by Crown Pub. Inc. Also Dept. of Manus. Austrian Nat. Lib. man.#1191 Codex. Old & New Test.(Fol. Ir-478v),(Fol. 481r-522r), see pp.17-19.
So, to the critics, be careful who & how you mock & poke fun & vilify in your stupid cartoons & tracts! You just might be making your forefathers turn over in their grave & moan, as you inadvertently attack your own roots & bible.

and now the truth comes out......... Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God......... why didnt you just say that instead of saying yes he is and then later saying no he isnt ??? Just say what you really believe right at the start instead of this deception..

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi MrZip,
How are you? Glad to see that you are still checking in from time to time. It's great to know that the LDS have friends out there. It's a conforting thought. Rhyno is also considered a friend which has nothing to do with believing the same as we do but everything with respect. I think there is lot to learn from each other the greatest is tolerance which is what the Savior would want.
We're in Utah and decided to move to the Heber Valley. It is beautiful here. Have a fantabulous day.
HR

Heber valley is gorgous. Im up there alot. My mom lives up there.

MrZip wrote:

<quoted text>
Heber valley is gorgous. Im up there alot. My mom lives up there.

My husband is wanting to get a motorcycle, if he does you will have to let us know when you and your wife are up this way and we'll hook up and go for a ride on one of those great scenic routes. I love the scenic drive up to Mirror Lake. My favorite.

if you do let me know! Thatd be fun. Im up there every august for swiss days. My mom and wife have a booth there every year.

Have you ate at the Hub yet?:) that place has been there forever. Its nasty, but its historic!

My folks at one time restored an old pioneer house in heber so we were up there a ton. it had some interesting stories.

Bonnyoshea: "...saying yes he is and then later saying no he isnt ??? Just say what you really believe right at the start instead of this deception"

Bonny I don't know what the crap your talking about, I guess you didn't read my clarification that I posted after the one where I thought I would be misunderstood. There's no "deception" here, & if so point it out more clearly rather than making the accusation & with a "hit & run" tactic! Besides, I was pointing out how that the inconsistant tactics used by modern anti-Mormon "Christians" who object to "extra-biblical" sources used by Mormons who have their additional books of scripture beside the bible; and the critics use of extra-biblical creedal formulas admitted by the early Christian fathers who argued over them, aren't in the scriptures. Then, the temple type symbols, such as the hand of God extended out of heaven, seen in thousands of historic Christian art, where that hand is sometimes grasped by those ascending into heaven. Plus the other symbols that sprang out of the Nicene Creed polemics. I offered some sources & got more I could present. So I didn't explore Mormon beliefs, but rather historic Christian, concerning the development of creeds & symbols.

Hannah: "Do you find it interesting how the Anti-Mormons sound so very much like the Anti-Christians in the first few centuries of the Ancient Christian Church right down to the fact that the first Christians were also called a cult. I find it very interesting how many of the distractors of the LDS Church have no clue what the Ancient Christians believed and it seems that they have no inclination to even learn either. I find many of the Traditional Christians have some truths and but are lacking in many of the divine truths because of the predicted 'falling away' first."

Yes, I've been interested in how so many propaganda disinformation tactics used by early anti-Christians, parallel modern critics! "The falling away" or "Great Apostasy" of doctrines & beliefs & temple rituals, as it is testified happened by Mormons, thus there being a need for a restoration. I call this process "legendization!" Why, because I've traced through the centuries what happened to most of the beliefs, rituals, & temple mysteries.

MrZip wrote:

if you do let me know! Thatd be fun. Im up there every august for swiss days. My mom and wife have a booth there every year.
Have you ate at the Hub yet?:) that place has been there forever. Its nasty, but its historic!
My folks at one time restored an old pioneer house in heber so we were up there a ton. it had some interesting stories.

My husband likes the Hub!!! Must be a guy thing. So what house and what are the stories and what is the booth, or what do they sell. We will more than likely be here. We now have an apartment at the Hamlets until the house sells in IN and we can buy here. I really like Midway and I think that is where we will look first for a home.

I find it interesting that mormons use propoganda too. Who doesnt? You're not free from that. Theres several sides to the mormon issue and doctrine, you've chosen one and claim divinity.

That to me, is interesting. I once thought exactly the same way.

Justin Martyr Jr wrote:

Bonnyoshea: "...saying yes he is and then later saying no he isnt ??? Just say what you really believe right at the start instead of this deception"
Bonny I don't know what the crap your talking about, I guess you didn't read my clarification that I posted after the one where I thought I would be misunderstood. There's no "deception" here, & if so point it out more clearly rather than making the accusation & with a "hit & run" tactic! Besides, I was pointing out how that the inconsistant tactics used by modern anti-Mormon "Christians" who object to "extra-biblical" sources used by Mormons who have their additional books of scripture beside the bible; and the critics use of extra-biblical creedal formulas admitted by the early Christian fathers who argued over them, aren't in the scriptures. Then, the temple type symbols, such as the hand of God extended out of heaven, seen in thousands of historic Christian art, where that hand is sometimes grasped by those ascending into heaven. Plus the other symbols that sprang out of the Nicene Creed polemics. I offered some sources & got more I could present. So I didn't explore Mormon beliefs, but rather historic Christian, concerning the development of creeds & symbols.
Hannah: "Do you find it interesting how the Anti-Mormons sound so very much like the Anti-Christians in the first few centuries of the Ancient Christian Church right down to the fact that the first Christians were also called a cult. I find it very interesting how many of the distractors of the LDS Church have no clue what the Ancient Christians believed and it seems that they have no inclination to even learn either. I find many of the Traditional Christians have some truths and but are lacking in many of the divine truths because of the predicted 'falling away' first."
Yes, I've been interested in how so many propaganda disinformation tactics used by early anti-Christians, parallel modern critics! "The falling away" or "Great Apostasy" of doctrines & beliefs & temple rituals, as it is testified happened by Mormons, thus there being a need for a restoration. I call this process "legendization!" Why, because I've traced through the centuries what happened to most of the beliefs, rituals, & temple mysteries.

My favorite Anti-Christian is Celsius. I would post his accusations and it was amazing how the Anti-Mormons did not even understand how I was making fun of their tactics. I'll have to resurrect those files and start posting them again.

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
My husband likes the Hub!!! Must be a guy thing. So what house and what are the stories and what is the booth, or what do they sell. We will more than likely be here. We now have an apartment at the Hamlets until the house sells in IN and we can buy here. I really like Midway and I think that is where we will look first for a home.

My mom is a weaver, she sells rugs. Shes a little firecracker, high energy woman who does it because she loves it. My wife goes up and helps her every year.

Haha, my mom and brother bothed lived in the hamlets. I used to do their website a few years ago. Thats funny! small world ey?

The house in heber was actually pretty awesome. we gutted it to the walls and noticed that the inside wall measurements and the outside wall measurement on one wall didnt add up, so we poked around and busted out one of the walls and found a 3 foot by 12 foot space, with an old newspaper, some old glasses and shoes and an old book of mormon in it. During the latter days of polygamy, it was a cohab hide out with a secret door to hide wives etc. 80 years old at the time. It was a pretty cool find. ITs in heber nearer the Heber valley railroad. You cant miss the house, it has a big, white wooden carved beehive on the roof I think. That was original to the house, my father got that from a demolition of a courthouse down in provo in the 70s. The house is still there. Id love to have a picture of that house if you ever find it.

CELSUS ON CHRISTIANITY (178CE)
Point: Anti-Mormon criticisms sound strikingly similar to the same criticisms Early Christians received from the Anti-Christian, Celsus, a writer, in the 2nd century.

“The Christians are silly to say, therefore, that God turns the world back to himself after a period of neglect.”

“not only as the son of God but as the very Logos—not the pure and holy Logos known to the philosophers, mind you, but a new kind of Logos.”

“You undertake to find another God, one different from the Father,”“another God,” and clearly not “the God of the philosophers.”

“ungodly” traits is a long one. Christ “deceives [his followers], and tells lies—which it is not
the nature of a God to do.” He is clearly not omnipresent if he came down from heaven, as the Christians teach. The Christian stories show that Christ is not really omnipotent

“These same Christians,” he warns,“speak of two divine sons, locked in combat with one another.”

“Now, if the Christians worshipped only one God they might have reason on their side,”

“are attempting to exalt Jesus to the heights,”

Finally, the ancient Christians were fools enough to teach that God has a body.

MrZip wrote:

<quoted text>
My mom is a weaver, she sells rugs. Shes a little firecracker, high energy woman who does it because she loves it. My wife goes up and helps her every year.
Haha, my mom and brother bothed lived in the hamlets. I used to do their website a few years ago. Thats funny! small world ey?
The house in heber was actually pretty awesome. we gutted it to the walls and noticed that the inside wall measurements and the outside wall measurement on one wall didnt add up, so we poked around and busted out one of the walls and found a 3 foot by 12 foot space, with an old newspaper, some old glasses and shoes and an old book of mormon in it. During the latter days of polygamy, it was a cohab hide out with a secret door to hide wives etc. 80 years old at the time. It was a pretty cool find. ITs in heber nearer the Heber valley railroad. You cant miss the house, it has a big, white wooden carved beehive on the roof I think. That was original to the house, my father got that from a demolition of a courthouse down in provo in the 70s. The house is still there. Id love to have a picture of that house if you ever find it.

Sure, I can get a picture. I'll watch for it...going towards Midway what side of the road is it on? What direction is the front facing if you walk out the front door? Do you have the address? Is it two story. I love the old pinoeer stories. One of my favorites is the town up north that one side of the main street is in one state and the other side is in the other state. When the state law enforcement came to town they would just walk to the other side of the street. Can't remember the town...I think it was called Freedom and the boarders were Wyoming and Idaho but I could be wrong. My great grandmother was a weaver and had a huge loom. We loved her rugs. It's a great and becoming a lost art.

Hannah you might find this post interesting & could even offer some more sources & observations of your own. I would be interested in anything you might have to offer.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi MrZip,
How are you? Glad to see that you are still checking in from time to time. It's great to know that the LDS have friends out there. It's a conforting thought. Rhyno is also considered a friend which has nothing to do with believing the same as we do but everything with respect. I think there is lot to learn from each other the greatest is tolerance which is what the Savior would want.
We're in Utah and decided to move to the Heber Valley. It is beautiful here. Have a fantabulous day.
HR

Hi Hannah, you words on tolerance got me thinking, and its not a critisism nor even really relevent at all. But, when does tolerance become indifference? I mean if we become too tolerant of things that we are against, then we become indifferent and before you know it the thing we are against or opposed to is everywhere.
Just a thought

Rhyno wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi Hannah, you words on tolerance got me thinking, and its not a critisism nor even really relevent at all. But, when does tolerance become indifference? I mean if we become too tolerant of things that we are against, then we become indifferent and before you know it the thing we are against or opposed to is everywhere.
Just a thought

Hi Rhyno,
How are you? Nice to hear from you. I've been reading a book that I think you would be very interested in since you started the thread on Angels I thought of you while I've been reading it. Lots of great things to ponder. It's 'The Great Angel' by Margaret Barker. http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/Gr...

Victor Hugo said, "Toleration is the best religion." I have to agree with him as we are commanded by God to love our neighbors as ourselves. One can disagree in a courteous and tolerant way which has nothing to do with accepting those things that one does not believe in. That is the example Christ gave us.
The good of any religion can be judged to the degree in that it inspires one to live a better life and how they treat other human beings. If we don't treat others well in the name of religion then that religion is usless.
When it comes to evil and the way the world calls evil good and good evil I total agree with you. Besides when it all is said and done it truly comes down to our personal relationship with the Savior and no one has the right to dictate that for another person. Only the Savior and the Holy Spirit can be a part of that very real and personal experience. That is what the Atonement is all about.

Justin Martyr Jr wrote:

Bonnyoshea: "...saying yes he is and then later saying no he isnt ??? Just say what you really believe right at the start instead of this deception"
Bonny I don't know what the crap your talking about, I guess you didn't read my clarification that I posted after the one where I thought I would be misunderstood. There's no "deception" here, & if so point it out more clearly rather than making the accusation & with a "hit & run" tactic! Besides, I was pointing out how that the inconsistant tactics used by modern anti-Mormon "Christians" who object to "extra-biblical" sources used by Mormons who have their additional books of scripture beside the bible; and the critics use of extra-biblical creedal formulas admitted by the early Christian fathers who argued over them, aren't in the scriptures. Then, the temple type symbols, such as the hand of God extended out of heaven, seen in thousands of historic Christian art, where that hand is sometimes grasped by those ascending into heaven. Plus the other symbols that sprang out of the Nicene Creed polemics. I offered some sources & got more I could present. So I didn't explore Mormon beliefs, but rather historic Christian, concerning the development of creeds & symbols.
Hannah: "Do you find it interesting how the Anti-Mormons sound so very much like the Anti-Christians in the first few centuries of the Ancient Christian Church right down to the fact that the first Christians were also called a cult. I find it very interesting how many of the distractors of the LDS Church have no clue what the Ancient Christians believed and it seems that they have no inclination to even learn either. I find many of the Traditional Christians have some truths and but are lacking in many of the divine truths because of the predicted 'falling away' first."
Yes, I've been interested in how so many propaganda disinformation tactics used by early anti-Christians, parallel modern critics! "The falling away" or "Great Apostasy" of doctrines & beliefs & temple rituals, as it is testified happened by Mormons, thus there being a need for a restoration. I call this process "legendization!" Why, because I've traced through the centuries what happened to most of the beliefs, rituals, & temple mysteries.

a classic mormon defense.........divert and change the subject,then throw in a couple of names,then blah blah blah......... you dont even know what you are supposed to believe..........now go ask your bishop for re training..

Justin Martyr Jr wrote:

Hannah you might find this post interesting & could even offer some more sources & observations of your own. I would be interested in anything you might have to offer.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...

Thanks Justin,
Great thread you have put together. I put together one called,'Godmakers' I love how the Anti-Mormons still buy into that whole myth when in reality what Ed Decker did was resurrect an Ancient Chrisitan teaching that the Eastern Orthodox Church still teaches and the Catholic Church is bringing back...all the while the uninformed sheep followers are still deriding the LDS as though it is a false teaching. Sorta funny and sad of all the uninformed Protestant Christians who have no inclination of learning the truth but just want to hang on to their flavor of Christianity that has lost so much. Here's the link for 'Godmakers.' I love that title and what it stands for. And thanks for the comments that you added to those pages. I have proposition for you...how would you like to team up for a blog? I have started one on Ancient Christian Art and Ancient writings. It's in it's infancy and it not published yet. Here is a start of some of the research that I've been working on.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/T7TEP26T2...
Starting with post #26. I'm not sure if all the art links still work but this will give you an idea of what I'm trying to do. I would like to put the ancient writings with the art work.
Let me know and if you do send me an email to my dummy email. hannah.someone@yahoo.com
You seem to like the same subjects that I'm drawn to.
I have a friend back in Indy who loves art and she showed me some of the ones she came across that had elements of theosis in it.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...

Hannah your links to your projects don't go to anything that I can track down or find. Can you be more exact. Thanks.

E-mail me too: justinmartyrjr@live.com

Justin Martyr Jr wrote:

Hannah you might find this post interesting & could even offer some more sources & observations of your own. I would be interested in anything you might have to offer.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...

I recommend the two of you start using the bible as your source instead of your various clouds of people who agree with your distorted version of Christianity..

Bonnyoshea: "I recommend the two of you start using the bible as your source instead of your various clouds of people who agree with your distorted version of Christianity."

Response to Bonnyoshea:

Your claiming again something that you can't show is my position & methods of research, saying that I only include those sources that "agree" with my "distorted version of Christianity." If you've read my research posted at different sites over the years, or watched the video documentaries that I've been making; you'd have to admit that I don't just look for parallels or sources that agrees with my own. But that I also point out the differences & polemical arguments that early to later Christians have over different beliefs, rituals & doctrines.

Cases in point:

I've mentioned how the doctrine of the pre-existence in historic Christianity, Origen's version was questioned by the Council of Constantinople in AD 553.

I've pointed out how 3rd century Christian apologist, Tertullian accepts some aspects of the pre-existence, because the book of Enoch was "scripture" restored through Ezra, to him. While he rejects the idea of the pre-existence of souls, saying that the spirit & body were created at the same time at birth. Now that certainly would not fit in with LDS' restored version.

How that Christ's descent into hell was debated over during the 2nd centuries, as to who rushed up to greet Jesus when he descended. The early Christians couldn't agree with each other as to who also got saved out of hell, who was preached to, who didn't have to go there, but went right to paradise.

I've pointed out how that Origen & other early Christians believed that God the Father was incorporeal (with out a body), like Christ's body. That certainly effected how the trinity was to be depicted. And it certainly doesn't agree with LDS beliefs that God the Father is a glorified resurrected man!

I've pointed out how that LDS apologists have noted, as I have, that the doctrine of deification was effected by how the early Christians accepted & viewed what God, Christ, & the Holy Spirit were like. That because many of the early Christians had the view that the deified wouldn't have need of a body in the eternities to come, those versions of deification are certainly different than LDS versions, where the resurrected body is glorified & not discarded in the eternities, as it is in Origen's version. Plus in other early Christians' versions, as they were influenced by the anti-body dogmas of Platonic & Greek thinking of their times.

I've pointed out the many differences, while many critics ignore the parallels, in order to falsely claim that Mormonism has "nothing to do with historical biblical Christianity."

So when are the critics going to start acknowledging that the greater parallels to Mormonism aren't with the occult, satanism, Masonry?! But the greater parallels are with Historical biblical Christianity! I doubt we'll ever see them do this, cause it would destroy their negative parallel witch hunting game they use to vilify the LDS people & faith.