Mormon church enters Calif. gay marriage fight

Patrick in Texas wrote:

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60 years ago California made interracial marriage legal. Back then opponents of interracial marriage argued that polygamy and incest would be next to be legalazed. That was 60 years ago and guess what.....incest and polygamy were never legalized. The slippery slope argument is indeed old and tired and unsubstanciated. Prove to me that allowing gay marriage will lead to polygamy and incest being legalized. Where is your proof? Gay marriage already exists in a couple of American states and several countries around the world. Guess what....none of those states or countries have legalized polygamy or incest. The slippery slope argument shows that the religious right is getting desperate.

Why does gay marriage need to be legalized?

Jitney wrote:

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Why does gay marriage need to be legalized?

So gays and lesbians can get married. Duh!

chief22 wrote:

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-people are not the same...
-relationships are not the same...
-privelages are not the same...
it is as simple as that

You were doing great up til the "privelages are not the same" part.

That's where you open the door to your bigotry.
The truth is that we are all very different, but those differences CAN NOT be used to deny privaleges that the rest of America enjoys.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

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SAD -you have not offended me at all.

Good because that was not my intention.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

The main point I would like to make is that homosexuality is not a choice whereas entering into a ploygamist relationship IS a choice and therein lies the difference.

I mean I think you could argue that for others groups. Pedophiles would argue they are just wired to be pedophiles and incestual couples would argue that they can't help that they fell in love. Polygamists would argue that the relationships they have entered into are inspired by God, I wouldn't argue they are not as I do not have a direct line to God. They would argue they do not have a choice.
So if your argument is they homosexuals do not have a choice, I think you have to believe the same way for these other groups right?

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

My questions to you are - do you beleive that gay people are being oppressed when denied the right to marry?

Oppression is a pretty strong word. I think oppression is best left to things like slavery and other atrocities. What we are talking about here is claims to social security benefits and tax filing statuses. So I would not use the word oppression. To clarify, gay people are not being denied the right to marry. They are being denied the right to marry someone of the same sex and gain the benefits of marriage with that particular partner.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

What are your feelings on civil unions as opposed to gay marrriage?

I have sorta done a 180 on this. I think at this point, government should only recognize civil unions for any consentual adults willing to enter into that contract. They should get out of the marriage business. "Marry" in your own social setting whatever that may be.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

Do you personally feel "uncomfortable" when your relationship is lumped with homosexual relationships - I assume you are heterosexual and married and does gay marriage in and of itself make you feel that you are being lumped together with homosexuals?

I do not personally feel that way. I have gay relatives that have been committed longer than hetero relatives. Now due to my religous beliefs I do feel homosexuality is wrong. But I respect your rights to go down that path if you so choose. Ace will call me a bigot (that is his thing) for this statement but I do believe you can hate the actions but not the person as I am sure there are things my gay relatives disapprove of but still love me.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

Since religious beleifs are varied don't you think that denying homosexual marriage based solely on that personal belief would be a gross violation of speration of church and state?

I don't know if it would be a violation of church and state. And as this topic started out I believe Mormons have every right to impassion their congregation without loss of tax exempt status just as GLAAD and other groups will do the same on the other side. But as Unbelieveable has proven to me based on Supreme Court cases it will be difficult to deny homosexual marriage legally.

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

I do beleive a person is bigoted when they deny another human being their God given rights - especially when they do so and hide behind "religious and moral beleifs."

Here we may have an issue unless you are ok with any kind of relationship between consenting adults. If you do not want judged then you should not judge either right. If we are going to say they are God given rights, then we are effectively saying that we should not deny these to any consentual adults right?

GODLOVESGAYS wrote:

I do not see how heterosexual people can justifiably expect homosexual people to pay the same taxes, abide by the same laws but not be afforded the same protections that marriage provides?

As I have said, I am at the point where I just think people need to view all "marriages" as civil contracts when it comes to the governmental recognition. Whatever you want to call it within your social setting is fine, nobody cares about that now. If we all could just see it as a contract I think the debate would be less flammable.
Hopefully I have explained my point of view on this concisely. Despite some of the more ridiculous posters on here I think there has been good debate.

Sad wrote:

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Right and you have been saying it over and over and over again.
Like I said we get if we think homosexuality is wrong due to our religious beliefs we are bigots..
Move on.

Sorry- but hiding behind religious beliefs does NOT take away the bigotry.
In fact its a bast@rdization of any true religion to claim that it endorses bigotry.
Shame on you for smaering your religion!
Move on!

Ace wrote:

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Sorry- but hiding behind religious beliefs does NOT take away the bigotry.
In fact its a bast@rdization of any true religion to claim that it endorses bigotry.
Shame on you for smaering your religion!
Move on!

Well I would completely disagree with you that it is the bast@rdization of any true religion as that is what religion is. It sets guidelines on how to live your life. My particular religion believes that homosexuality is wrong. So as a believer in said religion I believe it is wrong too. While I disagree with homosexuality, I respect the fact that it is not my life it is yours to do with it as you choose. I will not hate you for it, just as others won't hate me for things they disagree with me on.

But if that makes me a bigot in your eyes Ace, I can live with that. It is easier to just call us all bigots and hope that guilts us into changing our minds instead of offer real concrete debate as others like Unbelieveable has done here.

Patrick in Texas wrote:

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60 years ago California made interracial marriage legal. Back then opponents of interracial marriage argued that polygamy and incest would be next to be legalazed. That was 60 years ago and guess what.....incest and polygamy were never legalized. The slippery slope argument is indeed old and tired and unsubstanciated. Prove to me that allowing gay marriage will lead to polygamy and incest being legalized. Where is your proof? Gay marriage already exists in a couple of American states and several countries around the world. Guess what....none of those states or countries have legalized polygamy or incest. The slippery slope argument shows that the religious right is getting desperate.

it is circumstantial, but here it goes. First of all 40 year ago this would already be a dead issue would have never of happened. If you lood a the permissiveness of our society it seems to accept all sorts of bad behavior, child rape in VT. murders committed by illegal aliens in Cal, shielding rapeists in KS. Most of the American People have developed a lackadazical attitude about issues, all sorts of issues, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better only worse.

Saying that since it hasn't happened in the 2 states that currently allow homosexuals to marry, nothing else is going to happen, is a little dishonest since realitivly recent for one and really recent for the other, and since it is not acceptabed nation wide no one else is likely try anything until your cased are settled. Comparing us to european countries is really dishonest, since we are nothing like them we are so much better.

Sad wrote:

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Well I would completely disagree with you that it is the bast@rdization of any true religion as that is what religion is. It sets guidelines on how to live your life. My particular religion believes that homosexuality is wrong. So as a believer in said religion I believe it is wrong too. While I disagree with homosexuality, I respect the fact that it is not my life it is yours to do with it as you choose. I will not hate you for it, just as others won't hate me for things they disagree with me on.
But if that makes me a bigot in your eyes Ace, I can live with that. It is easier to just call us all bigots and hope that guilts us into changing our minds instead of offer real concrete debate as others like Unbelieveable has done here.

There is no debating the predjudice against gays.
Religion that takes their disapproval one step further and actively tries to stop other free Americans from attaining equal rights is simply a club for bigots.
Like I said- no respectable religion would try and force their beliefs on the rest of mankind.

UnbelievableFL wrote:

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No one is a bigot because they believe homosexuality is wrong due to their religious beliefs. As long as they stick to using that belief to guide their OWN actions, no problem, no bigotry. When it becomes bigotry is when that person tries to force others to live their lives according to those beliefs and tries to deny rights to homosexuals.
I don't consider you a bigot based on your posts because you don't have a problem with homosexuals having all the rights you have. There are many religious people on here that do not hold that belief.

I don't believe that anyone wants to tell you how to live you life. Marriage is not an institutions that stands alone, Marriage is the foundation of our family and society, so it does affect all of us. If it was just something we did to get stuff from the government, then few wouldn't care, but, Marriage goes alot deeper than just stuff.

Ace wrote:

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There is no debating the predjudice against gays.
Religion that takes their disapproval one step further and actively tries to stop other free Americans from attaining equal rights is simply a club for bigots.
Like I said- no respectable religion would try and force their beliefs on the rest of mankind.

Then I suppose in your view there are no respectable religions. If you don't think they are all trying to get others to believe like them then you are fairly naive.

Again, we are all bigots.. that is fine so be it.

chief22 wrote:

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it is circumstantial, but here it goes. First of all 40 year ago this would already be a dead issue would have never of happened. If you lood a the permissiveness of our society it seems to accept all sorts of bad behavior, child rape in VT. murders committed by illegal aliens in Cal, shielding rapeists in KS. Most of the American People have developed a lackadazical attitude about issues, all sorts of issues, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better only worse.
Saying that since it hasn't happened in the 2 states that currently allow homosexuals to marry, nothing else is going to happen, is a little dishonest since realitivly recent for one and really recent for the other, and since it is not acceptabed nation wide no one else is likely try anything until your cased are settled. Comparing us to european countries is really dishonest, since we are nothing like them we are so much better.

But you ignore the fact that the same slippery slope arguments were used 60 years ago. 60 years ago opponents of interracial marriage claimed allowing interracial marriage would opent the door to legalizing incest and polygamy. 60 years later and no US state has legalized incest or polygamy. The slippery slope argument is what the religious right uses when it gets desperate. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, incest, bestiality and polygamy is like comparing apples to oranges.

chief22 wrote:

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I don't believe that anyone wants to tell you how to live you life. Marriage is not an institutions that stands alone, Marriage is the foundation of our family and society, so it does affect all of us. If it was just something we did to get stuff from the government, then few wouldn't care, but, Marriage goes alot deeper than just stuff.

You have failed to prove how same sex marriage will affect heterosexual marriage negatively. Same sex marriage has no impact on heterosexual marriage. If you believe otherwise, then prove it.

There are two kinds of marriage, civil and religious.

Homosexual can already get married in the eyes of God, so why not in the eyes of the government that we support with not only our money, but also our lives.

To those against same sex marriage, I promise not to get married in your church if you promise to let me get married in mine. What is so hard to understand about equal civil rights…

And here’s a bet no one seems to want to take. I’ve offered it to Bill O’reily and to Wil, but they don’t have any donuts to bet against my dollars.

Since same sex marriage has been legal in Massachusetts, who do you think has the highest divorce rate? I will bet anyone, dollars to donuts, that the heterosexual divorce rate is higher. Any takers? I thought not.

Well it’s straights by over two to one.

Since homosexual marriage has been legal in Massachusetts, only 8% of same-sex marriages have ended in divorce, but almost 18% of opposite sex marriages have.

And I’m betting California will continue this trend….

Sad wrote:

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Then I suppose in your view there are no respectable religions. If you don't think they are all trying to get others to believe like them then you are fairly naive.
Again, we are all bigots.. that is fine so be it.

Your daft, man.
There are few religions that proselytize like American christians.
In fact I can't even name ONE.
Ever been chatted up by a Buddhist to join up? How about those pesky muslims that knock on your door and try to give you booklets about their religion? No?
Truth is that what passes for christianity in America is a complete perversion of what jesus stood for.
It's been twisted into an excuse to condemn others.

FrankIrvingstoned wrote:

There are two kinds of marriage, civil and religious.
Homosexual can already get married in the eyes of God, so why not in the eyes of the government that we support with not only our money, but also our lives.
To those against same sex marriage, I promise not to get married in your church if you promise to let me get married in mine. What is so hard to understand about equal civil rights…
And here’s a bet no one seems to want to take. I’ve offered it to Bill O’reily and to Wil, but they don’t have any donuts to bet against my dollars.
Since same sex marriage has been legal in Massachusetts, who do you think has the highest divorce rate? I will bet anyone, dollars to donuts, that the heterosexual divorce rate is higher. Any takers? I thought not.
Well it’s straights by over two to one.
Since homosexual marriage has been legal in Massachusetts, only 8% of same-sex marriages have ended in divorce, but almost 18% of opposite sex marriages have.
And I’m betting California will continue this trend….

They believe that THEIR religion trumps your's.
It's called arrogance.

FrankIrvingstoned wrote:

There are two kinds of marriage, civil and religious.
Homosexual can already get married in the eyes of God, so why not in the eyes of the government that we support with not only our money, but also our lives.

Did God tell you He was OK with gay marriage? Sure, you can pay some priests a lot of money to stand up, perform a ceremony and tell any two creatures that they're now "married," but does God really approve of it? How do we know this for sure?

See ACE's post above...

There are plenthy of churches that will MARRY same sex couples.

Really wrote:

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Did God tell you He was OK with gay marriage? Sure, you can pay some priests a lot of money to stand up, perform a ceremony and tell any two creatures that they're now "married," but does God really approve of it? How do we know this for sure?

Yes, I know, I said the same thing myself - any number of priests will MARRY gay couples. But does that make it right in the eyes of God?

Seriously, I'm wondering.