The Torah Revolution - Fourteen Truths that Changed the World

Christian witness wrote:

<quoted text>
Jehovah's witnesses are willing to listen to peoples understanding of Scripture, and will always try to defend their understanding with proof from Scriptures, but not doctrinal beliefs, man made teachings are not in the Bible.
Matthew 15:9
Give me an example...

All right - the game is on. How about Genesis 3:15 from the JW Bible:

"15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

From mechon-mamre Jewish translation:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

Notice any subtle differences??

First, tell me what is the origin of the mechon-mamre Jewish translation?

The subtle differences are not subtle at all, writing in the singular person is completely different than writing in plural persons.

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>Oh Jeeez - another proSLYtizer.(spelling mnemonic).
By the way, how much are the memberhship dues? Is this a pyramid scheme, so if I join now I can retire in 3 months? Would I have to join a commune? Who is your exalted leader nowadays?

For it is written ... thou shalt receive an extra BINGO card in heaven for every Jew you convert.

Christian witness wrote:

First, tell me what is the origin of the mechon-mamre Jewish translation?
The subtle differences are not subtle at all, writing in the singular person is completely different than writing in plural persons.

Precisely.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm

Now consider the usage of the word 'seed' in the common vernacular.

Rick Moss wrote:

<quoted text>
For it is written ... thou shalt receive an extra BINGO card in heaven for every Jew you convert.

Oh come on, Rick. Give her a chance. Besides, you know I love showing the bad translations for what they are.:))

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>Precisely.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm
Now consider the usage of the word 'seed' in the common vernacular.

I will get back to you, I want to prove to you that the seed in Gen.3:15 is singular and not plural. That would make the reading from the mechon-mamre Torah inaccurate.

Christian witness wrote:

<quoted text>
I will get back to you, I want to prove to you that the seed in Gen.3:15 is singular and not plural. That would make the reading from the mechon-mamre Torah inaccurate.

Anytime, I've got to get up early anyway. You may wish to review Genesis 13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 22:17, 26:4, 46:6, ii Kings 11:1, Chronicles 20:7 also.

Christian witness wrote:

<quoted text>
I will get back to you, I want to prove to you that the seed in Gen.3:15 is singular and not plural. That would make the reading from the mechon-mamre Torah inaccurate.

Torah wasn't written in English, Greek, Latin or Swahili, so... the only ACCURATE way to read scripture is in the original Hebrew. How good is your ancient Hebrew?

But, if you're looking for an objective interpretation, I'm going with 3,000 years of Jewish Sages dedicated to interpreting Torah in its original form and not someone with a message and a messiah to sell.

"One of the hallmarks of a dangerous cult is a penalty for leaving. Islam imposes the ultimate exit penalty - death."

JW's try to give you spiritual death by cutting you off from your social structure - called disfellowshipping and letting the rumor mill permanently brand you with some label, because no official reason is ever given. You can't just leave. They've changed tactics somewhat in the last years by saying "So and so is no longer a JW," instead of saying that "So and so is disfellowshipped."

And they are not the least bit interested in hearing any other theology because they've been thoroughly indoctrinated to reject it as worldly or apostate. Here's a little insight into how they think.

"Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship......." Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower pp.703-704

Quote at top from http://brotherpete.com/

The Scriptures are clear as to who is spiritually dead, Jehovah's witnesses do not make anyone spiritually dead.

The actions or conduct a person takes against being dedicated to Jehovah God or Christian requirements is their own doing, by their willful disobedience or loose conduct, also not being sorry or repenting.

(Hebrews 10:26-31). . .For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?

30 For we know him that said:“Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again:“Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>Anytime, I've got to get up early anyway. You may wish to review Genesis 13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 22:17, 26:4, 46:6, ii Kings 11:1, Chronicles 20:7 also.

The Scriptures you sited are referring to the offspring of Abraham, the seed in the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 is talking about the seed or the offspring of the woman, not Abraham.

Abrahams unborn children, even tho this single seed would be produced from one of his children, it is still referring to the one that would prove to be the promised seed or Messiah, this prophetic statement revealed that there would be a deliverer who would destroy the one really represented by the serpent, namely, the great serpent and enemy of God, Satan the Devil.

It also indicated that the Devil would have a “seed.” It would require time for the two seeds to be brought forth and for enmity to develop between them.

The woman is not Eve, because Eve was condemned to death along with Adam, their seed could not produce the Messiah, the seed would have to come from Almighty God Jehovah, and his wife or spiritual woman, symbolically speaking.

1John 3:10
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.

Christian witness wrote:

The Scriptures are clear as to who is spiritually dead, Jehovah's witnesses do not make anyone spiritually dead.
The actions or conduct a person takes against being dedicated to Jehovah God or Christian requirements is their own doing, by their willful disobedience or loose conduct, also not being sorry or repenting.

See what I mean? And how do they determine your level of repentance, you ask?("He who is without sin cast the first stone.")

This is determined by going to the right # of meetings - meaning all. And sitting in the back in total humiliation for months on end. It's a total sham and perversion of love and justice.

Christian witness wrote:

The Scriptures are clear as to who is spiritually dead,

Oh really? And what Scriptures might those be? JW's relish throwing people under the bus - saying that they are staying clean unlike the churches. What it's really about is group pride and arrogance.

And you will never hear this quoted among dubs.

1Cor 11

17 "But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you."

Dubs do not tolerate factions. Those who disagree on even minor points are summarily banished.

May those with an ear, BEWARE OF SMILING WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING.

Being turned over to Satan and his world or removing yourself from Jehovahs protected people is still the same results, you now belong to Satan.

There is no spiritual protection in this ungodly world, already judged by Jesus. Rev. 19:11-16

The choice is and always has been yours, we obey the Law of Christ or we do not want to, anyone can leave there is no one forcing you to serve Jehovah God.

If you are in the truth to save your own skin, that is not the right reason anyway, you must love Jehovah God with your whole heart, soul and strength.

There is no burning hellfire punishment, only eternal death along with this world.

Christian witness wrote:

The woman is not Eve, because Eve was condemned to death along with Adam, their seed could not produce the Messiah, the seed would have to come from Almighty God Jehovah, and his wife or spiritual woman,

Since you insist on using a phony name for the Creator

how does Mary fit into all of this?

I always thought that since Adam, being a perfect human and taken from the dust of the ground, that it would take another perfect human from the dust of the ground(the 2nd Adam 1Cor 15:45) to undo the works of the first Adam - Are you saying Mary was the wife of a phony g-d. who's name I won't even mention (Ex 23:13)

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>All right - the game is on. How about Genesis 3:15 from the JW Bible:
"15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”
From mechon-mamre Jewish translation:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'
Notice any subtle differences??

How about Genesis 3:15 from the JW Bible:
"15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

From Chabad Jewish translation:
"15. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

Notice any difference?

Rick Moss wrote:

<quoted text>
But, if you're looking for an objective interpretation, I'm going with 3,000 years of Jewish Sages dedicated to interpreting Torah in its original form and not someone with a message and a messiah to sell.

To be more accurate:

Actually they weren't 3000 years but 2500. These Jewish dedicated to interpretating Torah in its original form but yet they came out with so many interpretations that many of them are not compatibles with each others. So who among these sages is supposed to give the right interpretation of Torah in its original form?

By the way the fact that these sages due to produce so many interpretations it's a good indicator that they have lost the original message, though they know how to speak and write hebrew.

Christian witness wrote:

<quoted text>
The truth is in any translation of Scripture, doesn't matter what Bible you use. Just read it as it is written, not as you or someone who teaches it interprets it to read.
People have a tendency to believe what they have been taught, and to never accept anything taught from someone they do not know, especially a different religion. 2 Corinthians 10:3-6
Jews also had to accept the truth as it was written in Scripture and spoken by Jesus and the apostles, very different from what they were taught, and still being taught. Not many became believers in the new teaching of Jesus, they were in bondage to the teachings of Judaism or the Pharisees and Saducees.
Matthew 22:36-40
Jehovah's witnesses also have free will, to read or watch or do anything that is in harmony with Scriptural direction.

rabbee: no i, don't think so. and teaching people the lie, about a name i have never been called by G-D. does not tell the truth, of me or your grandmother of all here in this second coming of always Adam. G-D says, to not alter TheTorah. so i am not about to let, any of you lying clowns call me, or me and this world's grandmother jesus christ of nazereth. because this is TheTorah HaShem G-D is still giving. and i am not about, to accept falsified names for Eevareem, of G-D here in TheTorah either.
and i don't care if none of you were here in TheTorah. to see when, HaShem G-D came to tell me about the woman chaooah. and how HE had Us, put to death on TheTree. so HE could return us, as the infamous two wittnesses of Benee Adam. i was there, when G-D came to tell me. tell me about all of this, still happening here in TheTorah. the very same, Story of Creation as always. for this the third failure of all of you, and your also lied to grandmother. to not be here, in TheTorah now today. because you prefer to be lied to, than to admit that reality is actually here in TheTorah still.

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>All right - the game is on. How about Genesis 3:15 from the JW Bible:
"15 And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”
From mechon-mamre Jewish translation:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'
Notice any subtle differences??

rabbee: well i guess, none of you except me. have an actual Torah Scroll to read.

and HaShem* G-D said to the serpent, "because you have done this, accursed are you beyond all of the cattle beyond all the beasts of the field; upon your belly you shall go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your offspring and her offspring. he will pound your head, and you shall bite his heel."

yon wrote:

"One of the hallmarks of a dangerous cult is a penalty for leaving. Islam imposes the ultimate exit penalty - death."
JW's try to give you spiritual death by cutting you off from your social structure - called disfellowshipping and letting the rumor mill permanently brand you with some label, because no official reason is ever given. You can't just leave. They've changed tactics somewhat in the last years by saying "So and so is no longer a JW," instead of saying that "So and so is disfellowshipped."
And they are not the least bit interested in hearing any other theology because they've been thoroughly indoctrinated to reject it as worldly or apostate. Here's a little insight into how they think.
"Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship......." Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower pp.703-704

rabbee{ doncha just hate it, when a group of apostates. call only you! the excommunicated apostate. and you can no longer play, with their beasts of the fields anymore. and i have to go get, into my own Torah sandbox all alone. cause there ain't anybody here, in TheTorah to play with anymore. and never let poor rude-off, join in any reign-dear games. and make it so adam, can never ever find a true mate, to play with here and now in always TheTorah. no matter how bright, his shiny adam knows is.