Bible: Lot drunk and seduced by daughters FALSE!

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Darth Yoda

Fleetwood, UK

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#1
Sep 28, 2013
 

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Luckily the Qur'an has no details of this on Prophet Lot (peace be upon him). We are not surprised atheists reject this story either as how could a Prophet become drunk and get seduced.

"Lot had drunk blackout sex with his daughters on back to back nights. A believable story if ever a beer drinking man has heard one. Perhaps, the alcohol had Viagra in it." -- Atheist.

30†Lot was afraid to continue living in Zoar, so he and his two daughters went to live in the mountains in a cave. 31†One day the older daughter said to the younger,ďOur father is old. Everywhere on the earth women and men marry, but there are no men around here for us to marry. 32†Letís get our father drunk and have sexual relations with him. We can use him to have children and continue our family.Ē

33†That night the two girls got their father drunk, and the older daughter went and had sexual relations with him. But Lot did not know when she lay down or when she got up.

34†The next day the older daughter said to the younger,ďLast night I had sexual relations with my father. Letís get him drunk again tonight so you can go and have sexual relations with him, too. In this way we can use our father to have children to continue our family.Ē 35†So that night they got their father drunk again, and the younger daughter went and had sexual relations with him. Again, Lot did not know when she lay down or when she got up.

36†So both of Lotís daughters became pregnant by their father. 37†The older daughter gave birth to a son and named him Moab. He is the ancestor of all the Moabite people who are still living today. 38†The younger daughter also gave birth to a son and named him Ben-Ammi. He is the father of all the Ammonite people who are still living today.

“Tell it as it is.”

Since: Jun 12

Australia

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#2
Sep 28, 2013
 

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You have managed to confuse me.

Could you explain how it is that in past posts muslims have claimed that islam started with Adam and Eve, have transcribed parts of the old testament wholesale into the koran, yet insist trying to enhance islam by proving that the old testament is false.

If the old testament is considered the "word of God" then the bible should be considered as a supplement to the koran, or vice-versa.

It seems you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Darth Yoda

Fleetwood, UK

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#3
Sep 29, 2013
 

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Is this a serious question or are you messing about? I don't know who is serious on this board and who really wants to learn. If you are I will explain.

“Tell it as it is.”

Since: Jun 12

Australia

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#4
Sep 29, 2013
 

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Darth Yoda wrote:
Is this a serious question or are you messing about? I don't know who is serious on this board and who really wants to learn. If you are I will explain.
Can you?
Surprise me if you can.

Generally when a muslim tries to "explain" something the hole they have dug for themselves only gets larger.
Seriously

Wolverhampton, UK

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#5
Sep 29, 2013
 

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Why does the Bible tell about such men as Noah and Lot getting intoxicated?

Several instances of drunkenness are mentioned in the Bible when such incidents throw light on some important matter. Thus it relates that, after the Flood, Noah planted a vineyard,ďbegan drinking of the wine and became intoxicated.Ē This happening is recorded in the Scriptures to show how Noahís curse on Canaan came to be uttered.(Ge 9:20-27) In another case, on two different nights, Lotís two daughters gave him so much wine that he became drunk and they had sexual relations with him.(Ge 19:30-38) This account enlightens us on the origin of the nations of Moab and Ammon and their relationship to Israel. Lot was evidently drunk enough to lose control of his good sense but not dead drunk, that is, not too drunk to have sexual relations. Since Godís Word so strongly condemns drunkenness, we can be sure that these righteous men were not habitual in drinking to excess, were not drunkards. But the candor of the Bible is here illustrated, in its not sparing the truth when relating events involving Bible personages for our enlightenment. Some other cases of drunkenness are recorded at 1 Samuel 25:36-38; 2 Samuel 11:13; 1 Kings 20:15-21.
Darth Yoda

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#6
Sep 29, 2013
 

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Old Pom wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you?
Surprise me if you can.
Generally when a muslim tries to "explain" something the hole they have dug for themselves only gets larger.
You must be in contact with amateur Muslim "scholars". This forum is not for you.

Muslim believes like most Christians and scholars that the Bible contains the Words of God and some others (man's word). God revealed "Books" to various Prophets but they were not kept in their pristine purity and in some cases not in the original language of revelation / that Prophet. We use the Qur'an as the criterion to determine what is true and false in previous scriptures - a quality control agent so to say.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

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#7
Sep 29, 2013
 

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Darth Yoda wrote:
<quoted text>
You must be in contact with amateur Muslim "scholars". This forum is not for you.
Muslim believes like most Christians and scholars that the Bible contains the Words of God and some others (man's word). God revealed "Books" to various Prophets but they were not kept in their pristine purity and in some cases not in the original language of revelation / that Prophet. We use the Qur'an as the criterion to determine what is true and false in previous scriptures - a quality control agent so to say.
Rewriting the bible stories to make them nicer doesn't mean they are any more accurate.
TheMaskedMarvyl

San Jose, CA

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#8
Feb 22, 2014
 

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Darth Yoda wrote:
<quoted text>
You must be in contact with amateur Muslim "scholars". This forum is not for you.
Muslim believes like most Christians and scholars that the Bible contains the Words of God and some others (man's word). God revealed "Books" to various Prophets but they were not kept in their pristine purity and in some cases not in the original language of revelation / that Prophet. We use the Qur'an as the criterion to determine what is true and false in previous scriptures - a quality control agent so to say.
How can the Quran, which was dictated by Muhammad in 800 A.D., be used as a quality control for texts that were written thousands of years earlier?
I really, really, really, really hope you don't believe Muhammad's fabrication that an Archangel appeared to him and dictated the bible to Muhammad, who remembered every word.
Even his own scribe exposed Muhammad's scam, but substituting words which Muhammad didn't catch onto.
Darth Yoda

Preston, UK

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#9
Feb 22, 2014
 

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The Bible wasn't dictated to Muhammad where did you get that idea.

The Bible is the words of God and men
The Qur'an is the words of God (literally)

Example. Jesus preached. People added to his words, gave a different slant, etc.

The Qur'an doesn't have a chapter "Quality control":

Genesis 1:1 OK
Genesis 1:2 Not OK
....

It discusses the main issues.
Darth Yoda

Preston, UK

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#10
Feb 22, 2014
 

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What the Gospels Mean to Muslims? Lecture by revert Dr Gary Miller

QUESTIONER7: Sir, weíve talked about the Christian scriptures and their view of themselves, could you very quickly explain the Quranís view of itself in relationship to Christian scripture? What validity does it give for its own superiority, if it claims that?

DR MILLER: Yes, to start with, itís not so much a superior kind of a scripture, if thatís what you mean. That is largely a Muslim misrepresentation, which is an over enthusiastic patriotism.

The Quran does not claim superiority in the usual sense that people are talking about because the Bible and the Quran are different kinds of books. The Quran reads approximately like most of the so-called Minor Prophets and some of the pronouncements of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. It is not like most of the Bible, which are stories. That is, the book of Jonah begins by saying the Word of the Lord came to Jonah, the son of Amittai, saying, quote, what you are about to read came from God, through Jonah.

Whereas the book of Luke begins by saying, in effect, what you are about to read is what I have gathered and put together because it seemed like a good idea, saying, "It seemed the appropriate thing to do" to gather the evidence and write this story. He doesnít say, what you are about to read are words God has handed to me and Iím now putting down on paper for you.

Those are two different kinds of things. The Quran is like the former. That is why it is really rather short, it is about 80% the size of the New Testament. It is pronouncements: if you read "I" it is God speaking, if you read "you" it is you, it is God talking to whoever is reading this. So they are different kinds of books, largely.

What it says of previous scriptures for one thing is that it says of itself that it confirms the truthfulness of WHAT IS IN previous scriptures. That is certain things that have fallen into debate, people were arguing about certain things, and if they were really important things the Quran touches on them. To say, it was correctly reported in that scripture on this matter that it really happened like that.

It confirms the truthfulness of previous scriptures, and this verse also in the 5th chapter, also says of itself that it is, and the Arabic word is MUHAYMIN, which maybe best translated by the words, quality control. It is kind of a test against other scriptures. That is, if somebody brings something and says this is scripture and it says such and such, it may well be the Quran says that specifically is NOT so, and the evidence is in that place, go and look. It is acting as quality control in that regard.

But, of course, it does not go step by step all the way through the Bible, the Hindu Gupta, and various other scriptures and say chapter 1 is correct, there one mistake in chapter 2, 3 in chapter 4 and so on. It doesnít do that. It just talks about certain issues and the advice traditionally given to the Muslim right from the beginning was that if, for example, the Christian comes and he says such and such is true and it says so in my book, and you donít have a reason to agree with him Ė then give him the benefit of the doubt. He might be right; he might be wrong but donít insist heís wrong. Leave him with it unless you evidence to the contrary.

And so it is, a lot of what Muslims commonly talk about are really things they may have picked up from the Christian or the Jew. Often to their detriment, Iím afraid, they pick up some of the fairytales and carry them over as well. Thatís the key, it is confirming the truthfulness of key issues and itís also setting the record straight on certain other things that people have misrepresented. A great deal else it does not comment on because it doesnít really matter.
Darth Yoda

Preston, UK

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#11
Feb 22, 2014
 

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QUESTIONER7: Itís a man-made instrument to confirm or not confirm another supposedly man-made instrument?

DR MILLER: Oh, no, it doesnít say of itself it is a man-made instrument. As I said, itís the Speech of Godís commandments. When you read it, it says, "I" as God, and "you" the reader. Itís a pronouncement like as I said some of the 18 of the 66 books of the bible are like that, they donít just tell the story of so and so, but they say, God told Hosea this, quote. Itís of that nature.

QUESTIONER7: The point Iím trying to make is that its validity is based on the fact that in part that it says it has a right to confirm or not confirm other books of scripture.

DR MILLER: Well, as to its validity, there are various approaches to that. But the one that is easiest to explain is that the Book by its physical existence, the paper and ink, demands an explanation of where did it come from? What it repeats many times is that if somebody says the origin of this Book is such and such, then ask him or her so and so to see if they still thinks thatís true. In another place, If they think this Book came from such and such, remind them of this. So a person is confronted with the Book and has to come up with an explanation of where did it come from, and the person pursuing that comes to the conclusion that that is not so easily answered. All of the usual ideas have probably already been discussed in the Book itself with an explanation of why that canít be so. Youíd better come up with another reason. Itís when you run out of options it becomes a proof by exhaustion. It comes down to either this man was deceived or was himself a deceiver, if you are going to explain all of the facts you need BOTH of those assumptions and the point is they eliminate each other. You cannot at one time think you are a prophet and lie to people about it. You cannot have it both ways. You can be neither a liar nor deceived; you might be one or the other, but you canít be both. Youíre left with still this paper and ink, unexplained Ė what is its origin?

Thatís one way of looking at how does it establish that it deserves respect.

Thereís also the influence that it has had. It has accomplished certain things thatís why historians of science, language, and philosophy will still point to the Quran thatís the reason why the Arabs were suddenly civilized after 10,000 years of NO preparation for civilization. Something in that book is a stimulus. I hesitate to mention that, I suppose, because Islam is not an Arabic sort of thing, donít get that idea. 80% of Muslims donít speak Arabic, anyway. The point is that it had a sudden impact. That needs an explanation, it calls for some kind of answer.
Darth Yoda

Preston, UK

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Feb 23, 2014
 

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QUESTIONER8: Is there a difference between the word "gospel" and the word "bible" as it contributes to the scriptures?

DR MILLER: Oh, yes, thatís a point maybe I should have dealt with. Heís asking about words like bible, and gospel. The Quran when it talks about gospel it means Injeel, in Arabic, Injeel, which is related to the Greek, evangel, which is translated "gospel." A long time ago, it might have been better translated as "Good News." Injeel was a message it wasnít a book some place. It was in the 2nd century that the collections of the accounts of the life of Jesus got the nickname, gospels.

When technically any Christian that makes that distinction to say well these are the four gospels but the gospel of Jesus is a message. It is not these four books. These four books have the gospel in them somewhere. So the Quran is talking about what was it Jesus said not what are those four injeels.

As to bible, that is just an English nickname. It just means library; it is a collection of writings. In other languages, they sometimes donít call it that, the Germans call it "Helige Geschrift," holy writings. The "Bible" is just a convenient name. The Quran talks about people who use books, or use the book, or book people but it doesnít say people that use THAT book, the Revised Standard of 1881. People who are in the habit of using a book to support their position are people of the book without spelling out bible or the gospel according to Matthew.

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