With same-sex marriage victories on their side, gay rights advocates picket...

They really need to leave the churches alone.

Picketing a church won't change a single mind inside of it's walls.

Quite the opposite.

They are already irrational and fearful. Feeling that they are attacked only causes more fear, and does nothing to ease their irrational thoughts and behaviors.

Nice to see such bastions of ignorance picketed. A thousand years too late, but still...

If those churches would stop trying to force their religious rules on those outside their church boundaries, then they might have a point to claim the protests are inappropriate.

I'm undecided about picketing churches. While I do think we need to point out the hypocrisy & hatred coming from the churches- especially the catholic church- picketing in front of them only reinforces the idea that we're attacking religion.
All we need is for one protest to get out of hand and those will be the images the anti-gays use against us.

snyper wrote:

They really need to leave the churches alone.

Just as soon as Bible Thumpers stop picketing abortion clinics and Planned Parenthood.

Protests in front of churches should be particularly respectful of the services inside and the worshipers coming and going. But whereas the church uses the power of its image to influence political debates, it is only right and proper that protesters challenge that.

We're still paying the price for shenanigans by Act Up in the eighties. Nevertheless, you sometimes have to get people angry to get a discussion going.

WeTheSheeple wrote:

I'm undecided about picketing churches. While I do think we need to point out the hypocrisy & hatred coming from the churches- especially the catholic church- picketing in front of them only reinforces the idea that we're attacking religion.
All we need is for one protest to get out of hand and those will be the images the anti-gays use against us.

The Catholic church is downright hateful to gays.

Sherlayne wrote:

<quoted text>
The Catholic church is downright hateful to gays.

The church is, but we need to remember at least half of all catholics are NOT hateful to gays. In fact most polls show anywhere from 50%-60% of catholics support marriage equality; only Jews support marriage equality at a higher percentage (75%).

My point is that IF we're going to protest the church, then we need to make sure we're protesting the church and not necessarily the parishoners. It is largely the heirarchy of bishops that are driving the anti-gay rhetoric coming from the catholic church.

nhjeff wrote:

We're still paying the price for shenanigans by Act Up in the eighties. Nevertheless, you sometimes have to get people angry to get a discussion going.

The history of civil rights advances are the history of visible struggle. In North America LGBT rights didn't really take off until the Stonewall riots.

Civil rights wouldn't advance at all if it weren't for the "in your face" activists and their refusal to take second-class treatment any more.

I also have to wonder where civil rights would be today for African-Americans if they were told that they had to appease the racists in their quest for equality? Expecting the GLBT community to tiptoe around the sensitivities of homophobes is no different.

WeTheSheeple wrote:

My point is that IF we're going to protest the church, then we need to make sure we're protesting the church and not necessarily the parishoners. It is largely the heirarchy of bishops that are driving the anti-gay rhetoric coming from the catholic church.

Those who don't stand up to speak out against the homophobic leaders are complicit when they show support by their silent participation in the church.

Gay And Proud wrote:

<quoted text>
The history of civil rights advances are the history of visible struggle. In North America LGBT rights didn't really take off until the Stonewall riots.
Civil rights wouldn't advance at all if it weren't for the "in your face" activists and their refusal to take second-class treatment any more.
I also have to wonder where civil rights would be today for African-Americans if they were told that they had to appease the racists in their quest for equality? Expecting the GLBT community to tiptoe around the sensitivities of homophobes is no different.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that Watts Riots and other violent incidents helped civil rights move forward.

I've participated in Occupy the Primary events in New Hampshire. I would say our protest tactics were entirely respectul and non-cotroversial. We simply protested outside events and answered questions that passers by might ask. At the Dixville Notch primary, we put down our signs and went inside to interact with the politicians and reporters. We actually felt welcome. I can't say the same for the reactions at the campaign events we protested. Participants were quite hostile and inexplicably rude, even when we never talked to them.

Other Occupiers were more confrontational. Many who support our cause are put-off by mic checks, bongo drums, glitter bombs, and other disruptions. Personally, I don't think I'd be comfortable participating in some of those events. But I agree with you that the movement has got to ruffle feathers to get noticed. As long as glitter in the hair is the worst indignity anyone suffers, Occupiers will continue to have my support.

Gay And Proud wrote:

<quoted text>
Those who don't stand up to speak out against the homophobic leaders are complicit when they show support by their silent participation in the church.

The average parishioner who supports marriage equality isn't going to join act up and protest their bishop and church policy during every church service.

There's smart protesting, and there's counter-productive protesting. I have a feeling protesting churches during worship services is counter-productive and risks giving back many of the gains we've made with the average parishioner.

snyper wrote:

They really need to leave the churches alone.

Maybe they will, when the churches start leaving US alone. If they'd knock of the homophobia, they'd have nothing to worry about.

WeTheSheeple wrote:

<quoted text>
The average parishioner who supports marriage equality isn't going to join act up and protest their bishop and church policy during every church service.
There's smart protesting, and there's counter-productive protesting. I have a feeling protesting churches during worship services is counter-productive and risks giving back many of the gains we've made with the average parishioner.

There's nothing wrong with protesting the church--from a respectful distance--during services. Disrupting the services is another matter.

On the other hand, if you knew that the preacher was giving a sermon on the evils of homosexuality, an interruption might be warranted. For instance, if the Roman Catholic Bishop had ordered all the churches to collect signatures and money for overturning marriage equality that week...

WeTheSheeple wrote:

<quoted text>
The church is, but we need to remember at least half of all catholics are NOT hateful to gays. In fact most polls show anywhere from 50%-60% of catholics support marriage equality; only Jews support marriage equality at a higher percentage (75%).
My point is that IF we're going to protest the church, then we need to make sure we're protesting the church and not necessarily the parishoners. It is largely the heirarchy of bishops that are driving the anti-gay rhetoric coming from the catholic church.

I understand and I'm glad you show compassion for them. I, too, know many Catholics who are pro-gay rights.

Good, informative post and I thank you.

Gay And Proud wrote:

<quoted text>
Those who don't stand up to speak out against the homophobic leaders are complicit when they show support by their silent participation in the church.

You're correct - it makes them look like they tolerate homophobia. I'm straight, but I'll take a stand against discrimination, no matter what type it is.

Sherlayne wrote:

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You're correct - it makes them look like they tolerate homophobia. I'm straight, but I'll take a stand against discrimination, no matter what type it is.

When people participate in a church that preaches homophobia, and don't speak up against the homophobia, it does look to outsiders like they support it. And the church leaders will assume that they have the parishoners' approval too.

Speaking up when confronted with injustice is the right thing to do for many reasons.

nhjeff wrote:

<quoted text>
There's nothing wrong with protesting the church--from a respectful distance--during services. Disrupting the services is another matter.
On the other hand, if you knew that the preacher was giving a sermon on the evils of homosexuality, an interruption might be warranted. For instance, if the Roman Catholic Bishop had ordered all the churches to collect signatures and money for overturning marriage equality that week...

I just think the downside of such a protest is much more significant than any upside we'd get from it. There are so many other ways to shed light on the hypocrisy and hate coming from the catholic & evangelical pulpits without appearing to be attacking their religion.

Like I said, all it will take is one ugly incident at a church service to undo all the progress we've made in reaching those moderate parishioners.

WeTheSheeple wrote:

<quoted text>
I just think the downside of such a protest is much more significant than any upside we'd get from it. There are so many other ways to shed light on the hypocrisy and hate coming from the catholic & evangelical pulpits without appearing to be attacking their religion.
Like I said, all it will take is one ugly incident at a church service to undo all the progress we've made in reaching those moderate parishioners.

So why is it okay for church groups to come protest our community centers and pride parades, but it's not okay for us to protest the heart of their evil operations?

All change advocates need to keep in mind the trade-off between pissing people off and being ignored. Occupy certainly pissed people off. But we're having a conversation that we couldn't get started through other means. It's not like they came up with their ideas all on their own.