LDS won't be forced

Meanwhile, the LDS church will force it's position on those who are not LDS.

Interesting.

Utah and the LDS church just plain sucks!

I suppose ultimately we have to ask ourselves as a family, is insanity an acceptable position to allow individuals to take?

The Human family is slowly waking up to the reality of our position in the Cosmos. What we are finding does not match any patriarchal religion! What we are beginning to confirm is that this is an egalitarian Cosmos that is patiently waiting with open arms for us here on Earth to come to the understanding of this simple truth, the intelligent LOVE that is the substrate of all that exists.

Freedom of religion can not include any religious expression that is counter to the health of the whole planet!

A good example of the danger of false religion in action can be studied here:

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm

The Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex, of which the Later Day Saints are a major player, is in danger of disrupting the whole life process on this planet and has to be stopped!

Here is a simple process for dismantling this evil edifice:

http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/07...

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

I suppose ultimately we have to ask ourselves as a family, is insanity an acceptable position to allow individuals to take?
The Human family is slowly waking up to the reality of our position in the Cosmos. What we are finding does not match any patriarchal religion! What we are beginning to confirm is that this is an egalitarian Cosmos that is patiently waiting with open arms for us here on Earth to come to the understanding of this simple truth, the intelligent LOVE that is the substrate of all that exists.

Freedom of religion can not include any religious expression that is counter to the health of the whole planet!
A good example of the danger of false religion in action can be studied here:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm
The Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex, of which the Later Day Saints are a major player, is in danger of disrupting the whole life process on this planet and has to be stopped!
Here is a simple process for dismantling this evil edifice:
http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/07...

EVERYONE! EVERYONE! ATTENTION! Listen to Smurf's revelations! He understands the Mormon past and he understands the present Mormon future and their secret designs upon us all! According to Smurf and his revelations given to him by his god, All Mormons all over this planet have a secret agenda to fulfill that a bunch of Mormon men failed to do over 150 years ago and, that was to go from wiping out a wagon train of people to wiping out a nation of people and subduing it with their religious doctrine so they could set up a theocracy!
SO BE WELL WARNED BY THE ALL KNOWING SMURF! THE MORMONS ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER! THEY WILL FINISH WHAT THE MORMON MEN OF THE MMM INCIDENT DID NOT GET TO FINISH! SMURF HAS WARNED YOU!

No Surprise, I don't need revelations to show me the insanity in the organization of the Latter Day Saints.

Your ad hominem attacks just lend weight to my observations.

You really should consider waking up to who you are. It really is much more pleasant to know that you are really LOVED!

For those who are interested, here is a simple meditation that has worked very well for me:

http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/06...

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

No Surprise, I don't need revelations to show me the insanity in the organization of the Latter Day Saints.
Your ad hominem attacks just lend weight to my observations.
You really should consider waking up to who you are. It really is much more pleasant to know that you are really LOVED!
For those who are interested, here is a simple meditation that has worked very well for me:
http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/06...

Smurf, I know who and what I am and I am happy with that. Outside of that, I worry more about what a growing socialist government calling itself a democracy and what it is going to do to my country then a religion that is despised by most on this planet any day. We have a socialistic president that is governing the private sector and as of yet, there is no evidence his government is going to release their hold on it. To get us out of debt he has put us in debt to the sum of trillions of dollars and believes if his government owns a portion of the private sector, all will be well and fine. And in contrast you run around these threads worrying about a theocracy take over that in all likelihood would not take place and if it did, your looking at a hundred to maybe two to three hundred years down the road for even it to be noticeable if it did even begin to happen?

No Surprise wrote:

<quoted text>
EVERYONE! EVERYONE! ATTENTION! Listen to Smurf's revelations! He understands the Mormon past and he understands the present Mormon future and their secret designs upon us all! According to Smurf and his revelations given to him by his god, All Mormons all over this planet have a secret agenda to fulfill that a bunch of Mormon men failed to do over 150 years ago and, that was to go from wiping out a wagon train of people to wiping out a nation of people and subduing it with their religious doctrine so they could set up a theocracy!
SO BE WELL WARNED BY THE ALL KNOWING SMURF! THE MORMONS ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER! THEY WILL FINISH WHAT THE MORMON MEN OF THE MMM INCIDENT DID NOT GET TO FINISH! SMURF HAS WARNED YOU!

Thanks for the warning but we are already well aware of the mormons plot to replace democracy with theocracy and the necessary precautions are underway.

The State of Utah is fourth in the nation for same-sex families and we are spying at close range.

Tim said "Homof@scist attacks on the LDS are very similar to Hitler's first attacks on Jews."

Actually it is quite the opposite.

The LDS is attacking a group of people that do not deserve to be attacked. They are doing it in a vain attempt to control a world that does not match their religion.

Science has shown us what gay people have been trying to say for centuries. Being gay is something you are born with!

This is against the teachings of the church.

So rather than admit they made a horrible mistake which led to the deaths of many, including mormon children, who committed suicide because they thought they had no where to turn to, the Church attacks science and homosexuals claiming it's God's will.

If you study what Hitler did, you will find adefinite parallel in what the LDS is attempting to pull off.

They have formed alliances with other churches to strengthen the position that they are trying to achieve. The only respect they have for the churches they have formed alliances with is based on usefulness to their cause. Very much like Hitler who formed alliances based on falsehoods.

They have been worming themselves into government since the inception of this insane personality cult. Check out the mormon involvement in Homeland Security, The FBI, THe CIA, study their political track record, and then try to make an informed decision based on evidence.

To give you some indication of how harmful the teachings of this organization are look into this:

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm

Thank-you for not allowing us to join your religious cult.Most bars are straight bars,with free admission,that's why straight people have such a high rate of alcoholism.

Someone seems to keep flagging everything they disagree with as spam. Perhaps this person fails to grasp the concept of an open forum for sharing ideas and has a misunderstanding of the word spam used on topix. Contrary to what this person probably believes, Spam does not mean chopped pork here!

Oh, Well, it's just a little picture next to my post that hopefully will let people know that what I have to say strikes a chord painful enough for someone to label it spam which indicates that I am doing something right :)

It's ironic that the people who brought us prop h(8) in California and are busy doing the same in other states would whine about being Forced :)

What insane hypocrites!!!!!

Tim wrote:

Homof@scist attacks on the LDS are very similar to Hitler's first attacks on Jews.
Stop the HRC!

Tim,

comparing one's opponents to Hitler and the Nazis is merely inflammatory, and shuts down any kind of dialogue. It is better, in my view, to point out what the gaystapo are actually doing.

FWIW.

Regards,
Pahoran

Spider wrote:

<quoted text>
Thanks for the warning but we are already well aware of the mormons plot to replace democracy with theocracy and the necessary precautions are underway.

That's right. The Mormons are out to get you. Those black helicopters you see following you? They're ours. Got your tinfoil hat? If not, there are some good websites where you can get some really fashionable ones.

This kind of conspiracy theory is utter nonsense, and entirely worthy of ridicule.

Spider wrote:

The State of Utah is fourth in the nation for same-sex families and we are spying at close range.

Yes, I'm aware that the gaystapo are busily targeting their political opponents for retribution.

Regards,
Pahoran

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

I suppose ultimately we have to ask ourselves as a family, is insanity an acceptable position to allow individuals to take?

Let's analyse this for a moment.

When you say "insanity," you don't mean anything like "mental illness" or "abnormal psychology." You mean "a belief system I don't like."

So, with that in mind, let us translate your question again:

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

I suppose ultimately we have to ask ourselves as a family, is a belief system I don't like an acceptable position to allow individuals to take?

With that cleared up, let us look at the key verb in that question.

"Allow."

In any plausibly free society, "allowing" anyone to believe things any self-appointed -- or even government-appointed -- censor did not like could never be a question; it would be a *duty*.

But not in Smurf's weird world.

Contrast this to Joseph Smith's teaching, which he not only taught, but followed all of his life:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may."

Joseph Smith was a better man than Smurfie.

Regards,
Pahoran

Pahoran said "When you say "insanity," you don't mean anything like "mental illness" or "abnormal psychology." You mean "a belief system I don't like."

No, I mean insanity. Your belief system led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the needless persecution of a innocent minority despite scientists telling you they were born that way.(Not to mention the gays themselves) Your stubborn insanity actually caused the well documented suicide of some of your own memebers, innocent children, let to their own destruction by the INSANITY of your church.

Yes, that's what I meant, INSANITY.

Here is some of your insanity that you refuse to take responsibility for :

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftri...

A group that still holds a madman like Brigham Young in reverence after this horror really needs to be watched carefully.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Pahoran said "When you say "insanity," you don't mean anything like "mental illness" or "abnormal psychology." You mean "a belief system I don't like."
No, I mean insanity.

Yes, you mean "insanity" *according to your private redefinition*.

Which private redefinition you are not honest enough to admit.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Your belief system led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre

That is an utterly inconscionable lie. No credible historian believes it, and no honest person asserts it.

Which is entirely sufficient to explain why you do.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

and the needless persecution of a innocent minority despite scientists telling you they were born that way.

Prop 8 was not "needless persecution" and the opinions of scientists -- even if they were conclusively proven -- are irrelevant to the question there at issue.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

(Not to mention the gays themselves) Your stubborn insanity actually caused the well documented suicide of some of your own memebers, innocent children, let to their own destruction by the INSANITY of your church.

Another lie.

Yes, there are tear-jerking anecdotes circulating as cynical manipulators exploit tragic events for political purposes. But there is not a single piece of statistical evidence *anywhere* to show that homosexuals in LDS families are more likely to commit suicide than they are anywhere else.

Your accusation is false, and it returns to you.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Yes, that's what I meant, INSANITY.

Yes, that's what you meant. A belief system you don't like.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Here is some of your insanity that you refuse to take responsibility for :

You really need to get your scholarship up to date. The definitive work on the massacre can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/Massacre-Mountain-Meado...

I know you aren't interested in the truth, but only in finding mud to sling at the Church of Jesus Christ; but those who are interested in the truth will want to know about it.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

A group that still holds a madman like Brigham Young in reverence after this horror really needs to be watched carefully.

From the Smurf lexicon: "Madman (n) someone who is insane enough to believe something Smurf disdains."

The fact is that Brigham had nothing to do with the massacre. And he was a vastly better man than you can ever hope to be. He did not demonise his enemies with vicious hate propaganda.

Regards,
Pahoran

Pahoran said "
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Your belief system led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre

That is an utterly inconscionable lie. No credible historian believes it, and no honest person asserts it."

Well, as most people feel, I feel that being called a liar is mean.

But Hey! You are a mormon after all :)

for those who don't know what to make of the hateful accusations of the mormons here is a website that explains a lot:

http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

This is why they have no respect for the importance of truth as most people do and quickly attack anyone who points out the insanity in their organization in such vile ways.

Here is another account of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the obvious guilt of Brigham Young in encouraging blood atonement be carried out:

http://1857massacre.com/MMM/Brigham_Youngs_In...

WE all need to get informed and get involved.

I have noticed that the LDS has a lot of counterfeit sites passing themselves off as neutral so one has to explore many different sites to get an accurate overview. I was slowed considerably till I learned that they are not limited by the constraints of impeccable honesty that is a part of true christian behavior.

As you study the massacre and the churches denial in the face of evidence it becomes clear that this one incident is too revealing of their true nature for them to deal with it in any rational and honest manner without admitting the total failure of their hideous doctrine of blood atonement to contribute anything positive to the human experience.

You will come to find that based on the evidence we have that this crime is a crime of the church led by Brigham Young, who is still revered as a prophet, not a few deranged individuals or a bunch of indians as Brigham young said when he lied to the state department.

Where is Flipper and Lassie when we need them?

Tim wrote:

Homof@scist attacks on the LDS are very similar to Hitler's first attacks on Jews.
Stop the HRC!

No, in contradistinction to the Moron Churchcult, we haven't tried for pogroms on the magic underpants, dead Jew baptizing freeeks.

Yet.

I gather the only way to demonstrate to them what bigotry is would be to pass laws saying Morons can't marry someone of the opposite sex and can't adopt.

Amen.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Pahoran said "
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
Your belief system led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre
That is an utterly inconscionable lie. No credible historian believes it, and no honest person asserts it."
Well, as most people feel, I feel that being called a liar is mean.
But Hey! You are a mormon after all :)

Well, as thoughtful people realise, demonising an entire population group and their belief system is far more "mean" than questioning the veracity of the accusation.

But hey! You are an anti-Mormon after all. ;)

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

for those who don't know what to make of the hateful accusations of the mormons here is a website that explains a lot:

Spam snipped.

Honest debaters don't need to resort to poisoning the well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_we...

However, you rely upon it completely. In fact, you would be lost without it.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

Here is another account of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the obvious guilt of Brigham Young in encouraging blood atonement be carried out:
http://1857massacre.com/MMM/Brigham_Youngs_In...

Here is a representative snippet from this hate site:

"BRIGHAM YOUNG, ordered the Massacre.
The LDS Church has knowingly sponsored, endorsed, and forever immortalized this butcher into history."

And this is what you want to palm off on the ignorant as responsible historiography?

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

I have noticed that the LDS has a lot of counterfeit sites passing themselves off as neutral so one has to explore many different sites to get an accurate overview.

Translation from Smurfese into English:

"The neutral websites don't support my fanatical hatred, so I had to keep searching until I found some that did."

CALL FOR REFERENCES, Smurf: You have accused the Church of running "counterfeit sites passing themselves off as neutral." So, please prove your accusation.

Because I don't think you can.

Your accusation is FALSE, Smurf.

And another *deliberate, intentional attempt to poison the well*.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

As you study the massacre and the churches denial in the face of evidence it becomes clear that this one incident is too revealing of their true nature for them to deal with it in any rational and honest manner without admitting the total failure of their hideous doctrine of blood atonement to contribute anything positive to the human experience.

As you study the massacre with an *open* mind, you will find two facts:

1) It is a stark, horrible,*singular* event that stands out as it does *precisely because* there is nothing else like it in LDS history. That is because it is *not* the product of LDS life and teaching, but of unique conditions that prevailed at that particular place, in the summer and autumn of 1857, and at *no other time*.

2) Notwithstanding this undeniable fact, evil people have, almost from the day after the massacre, sought to exploit it for demagogical purposes. Such people are not obviously less evil than the massacre perpetrators themselves, since their actions are premeditated, and have also led to actual bloodshed.

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

You will come to find that based on the evidence we have that this crime is a crime of the church led by Brigham Young, who is still revered as a prophet, not a few deranged individuals or a bunch of indians as Brigham young said when he lied to the state department.

The *real* evidence shows that the massacre was entirely a local operation.

And note, please, that Smurf does not, because he cannot, rely upon you to reach the conclusion he wants you to reach without first poisoning the well (see link, above) and then loading the dice.

Does that suggest that he is not secure in that conclusion?

Why yes; it does.

Regards,
Pahoran

Pahoran wrote:

<quoted text>Well, as thoughtful people realise, demonising an entire population group and their belief system is far more "mean" than questioning the veracity of the accusation.

Funny this is coming from a Mormon Churchcult person. Openly, explicitly racist until the 1970s. Sexist in the past and present. Homophobic. Guilty of anti Semitism in these bizarre baptisms of dead Jews. Sick.

With the help of these religious freeks in CA, it has been determined that the populace of the US may deprive any minority of equal rights by a ballot proposition, as happened with Prop. 8.

This was literally the argument set forth by Ken Starr in defending Prop. 8, and if it stands it's pretty clearly only a matter of time before fundamentalist Christians and Catholics and Jews and secular people in the US consider likewise limiting the rights of Moron Churchcult members. It's called what goes around comes around. Amen.