Transgendered Catholic Decries Episcopal Actions at GenCon

This has the workings of a good cat fight. Keep us posted.

Listen to the Word wrote:

This has the workings of a good cat fight. Keep us posted.

"...good cat fight...?

Is that how you view your participation in these threads?

She fails to see, it seems, that the discomfort cisgender Christians feel when they are confronted with the existence of a transsexual person is based on ignorance, aversion and fear, on transphobia. She then excuses the transphobia by advocating the repression of a trans person's religious calling in service to its existence! I cannot agree. If people are uncomfortable with trans people and these trans people are called to ministerial service then it behooves those who are uncomfortable to educate themselves and modify their erroneous beliefs.

God created all of us. God created some people to be transsexual. Some of the people who were created transsexual receive a calling from God to become ministers. Why should these trans people refuse the call to make others less uncomfortable? That would be a perversion of priorities, in my opinion.

Emelye Waldherr wrote:

God created some people to be transsexual. Some of the people who were created transsexual receive a calling from God to become ministers. Why should these trans people refuse the call to make others less uncomfortable? That would be a perversion of priorities, in my opinion.

This precisely states the difference of opinion.

God did not "create" people to be transexual any more than he "creates" a child to have a birth defect such as anancephole.

God created the biology that produces humans, and we are co-creators with God to produce offspring. Sometimes, due to the fall of man, the biology goes awry and the result is less than perfect people.

These people are not as God intended. He did not "create" them that way. they have been born with a cross that they have to bear.

paul b wrote:

<quoted text>
This precisely states the difference of opinion.
God did not "create" people to be transexual any more than he "creates" a child to have a birth defect such as anancephole.
God created the biology that produces humans, and we are co-creators with God to produce offspring. Sometimes, due to the fall of man, the biology goes awry and the result is less than perfect people.
These people are not as God intended. He did not "create" them that way. they have been born with a cross that they have to bear.

God made EVERY ONE the way they are for a reason. I know, my son has CP, is deaf and mute but is the closest thing to God there is.

Every one who encounters him feels God and God's love.

You have no faith in the will of God.....

MiddleWay wrote:

<quoted text>
God made EVERY ONE the way they are for a reason. I know, my son has CP, is deaf and mute but is the closest thing to God there is.
Every one who encounters him feels God and God's love.
You have no faith in the will of God.....

No, I have a different view on how God works in our lives. I do not believe that our life is a chess game with God moving the pieces around. WE have free will.

My first son was born with a neural tube defect and died when he was three. Was this God's plan? No, of course not. He created the biology, and it worked the way it did. Neural tube defects are caused by a lack of folic acid, not God's hand.

It might be comforting to believe that God has a hand in everything that happens to you, but that's not true. You have free will, and you interact with people that have free will.

The world is not perfect because we are fallen. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

paul b wrote:

<quoted text>
No, I have a different view on how God works in our lives. I do not believe that our life is a chess game with God moving the pieces around. WE have free will.
My first son was born with a neural tube defect and died when he was three. Was this God's plan? No, of course not. He created the biology, and it worked the way it did. Neural tube defects are caused by a lack of folic acid, not God's hand.
It might be comforting to believe that God has a hand in everything that happens to you, but that's not true. You have free will, and you interact with people that have free will.
The world is not perfect because we are fallen. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

That's a shame, I see God's creation as perfect, made in the very image and likeness of God.

I see God's will as perfect, not necessarily as we can understand it at this point, but perfect nonetheless.

Not always easy, not all happy fluffy feelings but perfect as all things work for the Will of God.

Did Jesus restore us with God or not?

We're either new creation, as Jesus says or he is a liar.

I think he was telling the truth.

Yep, we have free will but God in His perfection can even use that........

Middle Way, either we have free will or we do not.

A drunk driver runs a stop sign and kills a mother of three children. Was that God's will?

No, it was a person exercising their free will to drink too much and get behind the wheel. Because, to say that is God's will is to say that God wanted that mother dead and the drunk driver in jail for manslaughter/murder. That makes no sense at all.

Ys, God is all powerful. Absolutely. BUT, He has put the laws of biology, etc, into place, and lets them work the way He intended.

And, Romans 8.28 says "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose." It says that God can bring good out of any situation, not that he is the Ultimate Chessmaster, making all the moves.

paul b wrote:

<quoted text>
This precisely states the difference of opinion.
God did not "create" people to be transexual any more than he "creates" a child to have a birth defect such as anancephole.
God created the biology that produces humans, and we are co-creators with God to produce offspring. Sometimes, due to the fall of man, the biology goes awry and the result is less than perfect people.
These people are not as God intended. He did not "create" them that way. they have been born with a cross that they have to bear.

I'd like you to clarify, if you would, your point is that people who are born with a condition that you have judged to be imperfect (using original sin as a justification, of course) should just allow themselves to be relegated to the backwaters and not pursue the calling they receive simply to allow "normal" people the privilege of not being discomfited? It seems to me that God created a system in which a great deal of variation is a good thing, even if we humans may not like or agree with that idea, and that the discomfort is not the responsibility of the person with the "defect."

Your idea that trans people are simply born with a birth defect that is their cross to bear, when brought to its logical conclusion, would mean that any and all accommodations that "normal" people make for those who were disabled at birth are wrong, that the disabled should just bear the cross they were given. That environmental, surgical and pharmaceutical correctives for such conditions are inappropriate since they somehow artificially relieve people of the crosses they were given to bear. Correct me if I'm mistaken here but I suspect that you haven't completely considered your statements.

Emelye, you have taken my post and drawn many conclusions that are not appropriate and not what I said.

You and Middle Way seem to believe that God creates people with birth defects and mental problems and diseases ON PURPOSE. I do not agree with that at all.

All human people are born with the same dignity and in the same image of God as all other people. All people should be treated with respect. Really, all of us are imperfect in some way.

As to treatment - if there is a treatment for a condition, and it lessens the burden - then, by all means, undergo the treatment if it is morally right. My point is that there are people who suffer every day. God did not intend that suffering, but that suffering can be redemptive if we join our suffering to Jesus'.

Joe DeCaro wrote:

<quoted text>
... but that image is fallen and tarnished.
How could you not notice?

So what was the point of Jesus, again?

paul b wrote:

Middle Way, either we have free will or we do not.
A drunk driver runs a stop sign and kills a mother of three children. Was that God's will?
No, it was a person exercising their free will to drink too much and get behind the wheel. Because, to say that is God's will is to say that God wanted that mother dead and the drunk driver in jail for manslaughter/murder. That makes no sense at all.
Ys, God is all powerful. Absolutely. BUT, He has put the laws of biology, etc, into place, and lets them work the way He intended.
And, Romans 8.28 says "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose." It says that God can bring good out of any situation, not that he is the Ultimate Chessmaster, making all the moves.

We make the moves, He makes them perfect.

I'll stick with my God, you can have yours.........

paul b wrote:

Emelye, you have taken my post and drawn many conclusions that are not appropriate and not what I said.
You and Middle Way seem to believe that God creates people with birth defects and mental problems and diseases ON PURPOSE. I do not agree with that at all.
All human people are born with the same dignity and in the same image of God as all other people. All people should be treated with respect. Really, all of us are imperfect in some way.
As to treatment - if there is a treatment for a condition, and it lessens the burden - then, by all means, undergo the treatment if it is morally right. My point is that there are people who suffer every day. God did not intend that suffering, but that suffering can be redemptive if we join our suffering to Jesus'.

God's will is perfect or it's not.

God can make perfection from anything, blemished or not.

Bad things happen to good people all the time. It's what we do with our experiences that gives us wisdom.

Good things happen to bad people - why?

Because God's love is perfect:

43 “You have heard that our fathers were told,‘Love your neighbor — and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 Then you will become children of your Father in heaven. For he makes his sun shine on good and bad people alike, and he sends rain to the righteous and the unrighteous alike. 46 What reward do you get if you love only those who love you? Why, even tax-collectors do that! 47 And if you are friendly only to your friends, are you doing anything out of the ordinary? Even the Goyim do that! 48 Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Middle Way, you are certainly right - we do have a different view of God.

I can love you and still disagree with you. I can love you and still tell you that you are wrong. You can still love me and tell me that I am wrong.

We are searching for the Truth. There is only one Truth.

The temporal effects of sin are evident in the world all around us. We are not perfect, only God is perfect. So, we sin. God forgives us - Christ died on the cross for those sins. But, only sinful, damaged people are in need of redemption. Then, it follows that we live in a sinful, damaged world.

paul b wrote:

Emelye, you have taken my post and drawn many conclusions that are not appropriate and not what I said.
You and Middle Way seem to believe that God creates people with birth defects and mental problems and diseases ON PURPOSE. I do not agree with that at all.
All human people are born with the same dignity and in the same image of God as all other people. All people should be treated with respect. Really, all of us are imperfect in some way.
As to treatment - if there is a treatment for a condition, and it lessens the burden - then, by all means, undergo the treatment if it is morally right. My point is that there are people who suffer every day. God did not intend that suffering, but that suffering can be redemptive if we join our suffering to Jesus'.

I see that you disavow the conclusions I drew from your post but you've not shown how they are incorrect. I still think the conclusions I drew from the sentiments you posted are spot on logical extensions of your opinions.

That said, I have to take issue with your idea about "treatment if it is morally right." How can the reduction of a person's suffering be immoral? By what standard should the treatment be judged?

Once treatment is given and the suffering is reduced or eliminated, why should the person who suffered recuse themselves from certain activities? Should they deny a calling simply because their former condition was rare, commonly misunderstood and thus makes people uncomfortable? Transsexual men and women, once they have gone through the process of a public and private gender/sex transition are much better off than they were before. They are, essentially, cured of the greatest portion of their suffering. Why should they then be relegated to the background?

Emelye Waldherr wrote:

<quoted text>
That said, I have to take issue with your idea about "treatment if it is morally right." How can the reduction of a person's suffering be immoral? By what standard should the treatment be judged?

If someone mutilates their body, that is immoral. If their "suffering" involves infertility and the "treatment" is to play God and create life in a petri dish, that is immoral.

Treat can indeed be immoral. Do you disagree?

Once treatment is given and the suffering is reduced or eliminated, why should the person who suffered recuse themselves from certain activities? Should they deny a calling simply because their former condition was rare, commonly misunderstood and thus makes people uncomfortable? Transsexual men and women, once they have gone through the process of a public and private gender/sex transition are much better off than they were before. They are, essentially, cured of the greatest portion of their suffering. Why should they then be relegated to the background?

You approach this in a very interesting way. You argue this from a purely physical point of view. Someone thinks that they were born with the wrong genitals, therefore the physical evidence is wrong and the mental evidence is correct. How very odd.

People are born with a variety of sexual or gender identity issues - intersexed, transgendered, gay, etc. This is all very messy. It is a burden to the people involved and the people who love them.

However, I don't think that you can ever "cure" these issues. As to ministry, I don't know. If you remain celibate, I don't think there is a problem.

What if you looked at it from a different point of view?

The Christian system we are in is one where a trans person needs to find an identity within a gender binary to function. I think this is what drives the need to have assignment surgery in the first place. The systems we have built as a society are just too difficult to navigate as one who fits neither/both genders either mentally or physically. The suffering and the feeling of being an outsider are intense, and that can drive compassion.

Maybe trans people are actually called, or well suited to being clergy precisely because of this suffering.

There are many variations on being trans, but maybe it is not these variations that are not working in line with God, but the structure of society.

Random thinker wrote:

What if you looked at it from a different point of view?
The Christian system we are in is one where a trans person needs to find an identity within a gender binary to function. I think this is what drives the need to have assignment surgery in the first place. The systems we have built as a society are just too difficult to navigate as one who fits neither/both genders either mentally or physically. The suffering and the feeling of being an outsider are intense, and that can drive compassion ...

... but in reality, it often drives a gay agenda that has NO compassion for opposing viewpoints.

Random thinker - you are right in a sense. We are all created with dignity. I think it's your world view that informs how you answer the questions about gender issues. If you are Christian, you do indeed think of gender as a binary, and people with gender issues are a result of the fall and the non-perfect nature of our present existence.

I suppose a humanist or secularist could view the gender identity continuum as all good (not "broken") and search for meaning in that. If it is "good" or "intended", why do people who don't fit the binary have such internal turmoil? Society? Religion?

Joe DeCaro wrote:

<quoted text>
... but in reality, it often drives a gay agenda that has NO compassion for opposing viewpoints.

I would agree with that in some cases, but not all the time. I would suggest that the double standard for acceptable behaviors is often a structure that allows for more critical judgement of trans people.

When you say 'agenda' I question that. My own agenda is to simply live my life and be happy. When I am actively excluded from this, it really isnt my agenda but an agenda of exclusion acting on me.

I can't really articulate how complex this sense of exclusion is.

I can possibly see an angle where I agree with you re: some queer folk being a bit sexually inappropriate in public and work environments. Personally, I have a hard time with this but that might just be my own personality. Is that what you mean by gay agenda? What are you thinking about when you refer to a gay agenda?