Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Cary L Nickel wrote:

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You have a tough time simply admitting you are wrong when folks call you out, don't you?
No one, and I mean no one, is being MADE to do it. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

Oh yeah, members are begging to clean toilets aren't they?

Cary L Nickel wrote:

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Just as I thought: No evidence.
Alleged random comments made to you, considering your hostility towards the Church and your penchant for misrepresentation, mean nothing.
But your continued petty insults do say a lot about you.

And just like the "coming home in the casket" quote, you are the only Mormon in the world who hasn't heard those rumors in the temple. Since you didn't obey your leaders and marry within the church, maybe you have never been in the temple. That I can believe.

Dana Robertson wrote:

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Oh yeah, members are begging to clean toilets aren't they?

If the toilet is going to be cleaned, someone does it, right?

Who do you make clean the toilet in your home? Are you above doing it yourself?

Dana Robertson wrote:

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And just like the "coming home in the casket" quote, you are the only Mormon in the world who hasn't heard those rumors in the temple. Since you didn't obey your leaders and marry within the church, maybe you have never been in the temple. That I can believe.

Again, you put words in other people's mouths based upon what YOU say they believe, and quite regardless of actual fact. That you wish to dwell on only the topics that interest you is your right, of course, but that does not mean the rest of us must place equal importance on those topics. The "coming home in a casket" quote is merely a few sentences you chose to pick from literally millions of words spoken and written by General Authorities over the century and a half of the church's existence. There is no special, overwhelming emphasis placed upon those words over any others, except by you, and only in the context that you can use them to support and display your own personal hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which you yourself believed in for over 30 years.

And you can choose to spread rumors about apparitions being seen in Holy Temples if you so choose, but again, you do so not to place any special significance upon the event, but merely to continue your relentless litany of reasons you now hate the church you were a member of for over 30 years.

Personally, I've never seen a ghost. So I don't place as much significance upon such rumors as you do.

You've already made it pretty plain that you will believe, and report, anything, however outlandish, as long at it's negative towards your former church of 30-plus years, and supports you're preconceived opinion.

And your assertion that I don't "obey" my church leaders is again patently false. It was a church leader, the Bishop, who married us.

So, once again, you speak of things you know absolutely nothing about.

Interesting your concern that I follow your interpretation of what church doctrine is...considering your open contempt for that doctrine. Isn't that ironic?

Thanks for your concern nonetheless!

Cary L Nickel wrote:

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If the toilet is going to be cleaned, someone does it, right?
Who do you make clean the toilet in your home? Are you above doing it yourself?

The toilet in my home is mine. It is part of an investment in which some day I will get a monetary return. The toilet in your ward is not yours, you will never be able to use it to get a loan, you will never be able to sell the building and get a profit. You get the joy of cleaning a toilet that others use for a corporation while the corporation takes your money, something you earned, unless you are on the government tit, and doing what they please with it without so much as a thank you. If your job told you to clean the toilets without pay, you would raise hell. But when your church refuses to pay for the janitorial services, it is making the member do it. Which is what my original point was and you continue to deny. But if you think it is an honor to clean up after others for nothing, I have some work for you.

Cary L Nickel wrote:

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Again, you put words in other people's mouths based upon what YOU say they believe, and quite regardless of actual fact.

It is a fact that I was told stories of the dead appearing to members doing their temple work. It is a fact that a common saying among members is that they would rather their kids come home in a casket then to lose their chastity. It is a fact that Mormonism taught that black skin is a curse from God. It is only in the "Book of Mormon," and "The Pearl of Great Price" along with many talks and books published by your leaders until 1978. What is amazing is that you say you have never ever heard of any of it. Do you notice your friends "Crazy" and "No Surprise" aren't chiming in to back you up on this? Why? Because even they aren't willing to tell such a big lie. They know the above is true, yet you are the only Mormon in the World who never heard it. Amazing, absolutely amazing. It is almost a miracle.

That you wish to dwell on only the topics that interest you is your right, of course, but that does not mean the rest of us must place equal importance on those topics.

So, feel free not to respond to them. No one is forcing you. I teaching those who eyes are open and not afraid to see the truth.

The "coming home in a casket" quote is merely a few sentences you chose to pick from literally millions of words spoken and written by General Authorities over the century and a half of the church's existence. There is no special, overwhelming emphasis placed upon those words over any others, except by you, and only in the context that you can use them to support and display your own personal hatred of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which you yourself believed in for over 30 years.

No, there's no special emphasis, except to scare the crap out of your children. There are very few phrases used more in the church, so to try to deny the impact is ridicules. It is also a statement that is just f**king sick and should never have been taught in the first place. But this is Mormonism, a child that would rather have dead children who are chaste, then live ones that haven't. I do hate the quote. Anybody hearing it should hate the quote and speak out against that filth from a church that is screwed up that they think it is a perfectly reasonable thing to tell a child. Again, what is next? Honor killings?

And you can choose to spread rumors about apparitions being seen in Holy Temples if you so choose, but again, you do so not to place any special significance upon the event, but merely to continue your relentless litany of reasons you now hate the church you were a member of for over 30 years.

I did so because Fair was trying to downplay those types of comments to the members. I didn't hate the church because of their ghost fairy tales, but I'm not going to stand by while people openly lie about it either.

Personally, I've never seen a ghost. So I don't place as much significance upon such rumors as you do.

Who cares what you have seen? They teach about it in the temple.

You've already made it pretty plain that you will believe, and report, anything, however outlandish, as long at it's negative towards your former church of 30-plus years, and supports you're preconceived opinion.

I refuse to let you lie about your own faith so you can sucker people into it. You don't like it? Who cares. I'm going to keep you honest whether you like it or not. People who don't know about the LDS church are going to hear the plain truth without the spin doctoring your church has learn to fabricate to cover up it's evil teachings.

The rest of your post was just more BS. No need to respond as it speaks for itself.

Cary doesn't believe in ghost, but the LDS leaders certainly do:

Halloween, 1918. The then “prophet” of the Mormon church, Joseph F. Smith, submits a “vision” of the dead he has “to the counselors in the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and the Patriarch, and by them unanimously accepted…”(Gospel Doctrine, 2:277, published by The First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1971)

Joseph F. Smith, the nephew of Mormon founder Joseph Smith, had claimed that he saw “the hosts of the dead, both small and great...an innumerable company of the spirits of the just”(Lds Doctrine & Covenants, 138:11-12)-- and these spirits were just waiting for Mormon missionaries to come their way to be redeemed.

Joseph F. Smith claimed that the Mormon “Jesus” had prepared "the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.”(D&C 138:37-38)

Joseph F. Smith was almost 80 and had recently gone through a few deaths in his family. He himself was on the last legs of his life as he wouldn’t see December of that year.

“Six weeks before President Smith died, he received an important revelation about the redemption of the dead. He…learned that faithful Saints have the opportunity to continue teaching the gospel in the world of spirits. This revelation was added to the Pearl of Great Price in 1976 and in 1979 it was transferred to the Doctrine and Covenants as section 138.”(Mormon publication: Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 107)

“The dead are not perfect without us, neither are we without them [see D&C 128:18],” claimed Joseph F. Smith, a quote published in a church-published book in 1998 (Teachings of Presidents: Joseph Smith, p. 410)

Visions of the dead popping up to this Mormon “prophet” in 1918 was nothing new.

The Mormon church officially reiterated in 2007 the Mormon claim that the ghost of Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young three years after his death. Whether it was Smith’s ghost, or a demon masquerading as such, wasn’t debated in the official Mormon church publication:

“In February 1847, nearly three years after the Prophet Joseph Smith was martyred, he appeared to President Brigham Young…”(Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 98, 2007)

One of the highest-ranking Mormon leaders in the 19th century, Lds First President/“apostle” Heber C. Kimball claimed that "Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped." (Deseret Weekly News, 53:112, Temples of the Most High, 1896, p. 345)

To be continued...

Young and Kimball apparently weren’t alone. The ‘demon/ghost’ Smith apparition appeared to the same Lds “prophet” who began to halt polygamy, Wilford Woodruff. Woodruff claimed one October day that…

”After the death of Joseph Smith I saw and conversed with him many times in my dreams in the night season…when I awoke many of the things he had told me were taken from me, I could not comprehend them. I have had many interviews with Brother Joseph until the last 15 or 20 years of my life; I have not seen him for that length of time. But during my travels in the southern country last winter I had many interviews with President Young, and with Heber C. Kimball, and Geo. A. Smith, and Jedediah M. Grant, and many others who are dead. They attended our conference, they attended our meetings. And on one occasion, I saw Brother Brigham and Brother Heber ride in carriage ahead of the carriage in which I rode when I was on my way to attend conference; and they were dressed in the most priestly robes. When we arrived at our destination I asked Prest. Young if he would preach to us. He said, "No, I have finished my testimony in the flesh I shall not talk to this people any more. But (said he) I have come to see you; I have come to watch over you, and to see what the people are doing.(Journal of Discourses, pp. 317-318 by Wilford Woodruff, Oct 10, 1880)

These occultic visitations stopped -- only to reoccur in the 1890s: Mormons claim that when they opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders." (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 102)

At times, Lds leaders recognized these spirit-entities for who they are...other times, no. For example, Heber C. Kimball described the spirits who descended upon him while serving as a missionary in Preston, England:

“We gazed upon them about an hour and a half (by Willard’s watch). We were not looking towards the window, but towards the wall. Space appeared before us, and we saw the devils coming in legions, with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us. They came towards us like armies rushing to battle They appeared to be men of full stature, possessing every form and feature of men in the flesh, who were angry and desperate; and I (Kimball) shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself, or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain. I perspired exceedingly, my clothes becoming as wet as if I had been taken out of the river. I felt excessive pain, and was in the greatest distress for sometime.(Orson F. Whitney, The Life of Heber C. Kimball, Bookcraft, Utah. 1945, pp. 130-131).

Spirit-entity manifestations to Mormons continue into the current era, as one reference to “evil spirits” haunting the Lds Brazilian Mission confirms:

"A few years ago while touring the missions of South America, I heard President William Grant Gangerter of the Brazilian Mission make some interesting comments. He reported that there had been a wave of incidents in which evil spirits were afflicting the missionaries and the Saints. At every conference the missionaries were relating experiences they were having with evil spirits. The intensity of their influence was frightening." (Come Unto Christ, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, for 1984, 1988 published 1983, 1986 p. 109)

Mormonism teaches of a very thin veil between the dead and the living:

Joseph Smith:

"The spirits...are blessed in their departure to the world of spirits. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 326)

* Lds “apostle” Parley Pratt said: "...we frequently hold communication with our departed father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter; or with the former husband or wife of our bosom..."

* Lds “prophet” Joseph F. Smith, nephew of Joseph Smith…in a book published by the highest ranking Lds hierarchy, The First Presidency:

*“Sometimes the Lord expands our vision from this point of view and this side of the veil, that we feel and seem to realize that we can look beyond the thin veil which separates us from that other sphere…the spirit world, surely those who have passed beyond can see more clearly through the veil back here to us…I believe we move and have our being in the presence of heavenly…beings. We are not separated from them…”(Gospel Doctrine, 2:215, 1971)

*“I claim that we live in their presence; they see us; they are solicitous for our welfare…”(GD, 2:216, 1971)(Original source: CR, Apr. 1916, pp. 2-4)

*“In like manner our fathers and mothers, brothers, sisters, and friends who have passed away from this earth…may have a mission given them to visit their relatives and friends upon the earth again, bringing…warning or reproof and instruction to those whom they had learned to love in the flesh. And so it is with Sister [Elizabeth H.] Cannon. She can return and visit her friends…”(GD, 2:224, Original source: Discourse @ the funeral of Elizabeth H. Cannon, JD 22:351-352]

But according to Fair, the LDS church doesn't teach that the dead has appeared to members in the temple. They are only rumors:

Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple in 1993, local Mormon families were given a packet titled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead.

Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff told followers in 1887, "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George (Journal of Discourses 19:229). Woodruff is referring to the St. George temple in southern Utah. He also stated,“I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights”(The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.160).

In his book titled Temple Manifestations, Mormon writer Joseph Heinerman lists several accounts of dead spirits visiting patrons in LDS temples.

For those of you who think, "Well, this was all yesteryear Mormonism," think again:

John Heinerman, in Temple Manifestations, pp. 101-102, Mountain Valley Publishers Manti, Utah, claims these spirits would be smiling -- or sad spirit-faced -- supposedly dependent upon whether they were being necro-baptized or not...The Lds church included this account as factual in their Lesson 34, "Joseph Smith Teaches About Baptism for the Dead" at 2004 Primary Program for children!!!(p. 197)

They teach these same kinds of "anecdotal ghost stories" as formal BYU freshman courses:
In partial answer to the question, let us review a journal entry written by Charles R. Woodbury after he had “witnessed 300 baptisms one day” in the Manti Temple: As a name was called out for baptism, a voice said to me,“This person has had the Gospel taught them and is converted and is ready for baptism.” Another name would be called out,“This person’s never heard the Gospel yet.” Another name would be called,“This person’s heard the Gospel and is not converted.” I sat there in that condition and witnessed 300 baptisms. I knew everyone of them that had accepted it and those that didn’t…25 out of the 300 weren’t ready for it. They weren’t converted and ready for the work. The rest of them, the other 275 were prepared and rejoiced that their work was being done. This is the testimony that I have to show people that the departed spirits know and appreciate when their work is done in the Temple, so they can enjoy the blessings of the Gospel (Woodbury, 1970, p. 19)(Source: p. 57 of http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Rel%20261/26... )

Here is how Mormons incorporate the dead showing up into their Sunday School lessons:

…tried to help his other family members become converted, but they rejected him and the truths he taught. Fred settled in Salt Lake City four years after joining the Church, and he served faithfully as a missionary in several different countries. He also worked as a painter in the Salt Lake Temple. In one of his final journal entries, he wrote:“Along about the 1st of March, 1893, I found myself alone in the dining room, all had gone to bed. I was sitting at the table when to my great surprize my elder brother Alfred walked in and sat down opposite me at the table and smiled. I said to him (he looked so natural):‘When did you arrive in Utah?’“He said:‘I have just come from the Spirit World, this is not my body that you see, it is lying in the tomb. I want to tell you that when you were on your mission you told me many things about the Gospel, and the hereafter, and about the Spirit World being as real and tangible as the earth…I look to you to do the work for me in the temple.… You are watched closely.… We are all looking to you as our head in this great work.(Diary of Frederick William Hurst, comp. Samuel H. and Ida Hurst [1961], 204).(Secondary Source: Lds Sunday School lesson from "Doctrine and Covenants and Church History"The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers," pp. 1-2 LDS Sunday School Lesson

http://www.thespiritofelijah.com/pdf/heartsOf...

Cary L Nickel wrote:

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You once again are incorrect. You continue to assert your erroneous assumption that the church can "make" anybody do anything. They cannot. Thus, they do not MAKE members clean the meetinghouses.
When was the last time YOU actually attended church?

God are you in deep. You are in so deep you cannot even remember when you were not in so deep.

Do you understand how absurd you sound to others?

I was a teen when Jim Jones had talked 900 plus members of his church into killing themselves. Never could understand how these people could not see that he was a false prophet. Just like I will never understand how with SO much evidence Joe Smith was a con and the LDS cannot see it.
If my grand-kids came home an said a classmate was finding buried treasure looking through a glass no one would believe it. But you LDS believe this man found tablets that are contradictory to the bible by looking through a glass and writing it down. Then MOST important when pages get stolen he cannot write them again. Red Flag!!!! Red Flag!!!!!!

Wisdom wrote:

I was a teen when Jim Jones had talked 900 plus members of his church into killing themselves. Never could understand how these people could not see that he was a false prophet. Just like I will never understand how with SO much evidence Joe Smith was a con and the LDS cannot see it.
If my grand-kids came home an said a classmate was finding buried treasure looking through a glass no one would believe it. But you LDS believe this man found tablets that are contradictory to the bible by looking through a glass and writing it down. Then MOST important when pages get stolen he cannot write them again. Red Flag!!!! Red Flag!!!!!!

When a Church requires you to give money in order to be in better standing than those you do not, that should turn on a siren in your head.

OregonSUX wrote:

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If you think there is anything factual in what you just posted you need to get some better meds.

lol...and from ignorance corner that was it folks. Why do they not let us down with their inability to say anything intelligent eh? Go-figure lol :)

Wisdom wrote:

<quoted text>mainstream Christianity does not believe we existed before we were born. Nor does mainstream Christianity believe we can become Gods.

Your correct about those two points. Mainstream Christianity, in spite of things spoken of in the Bible and other ancient Jewish writings, they have not a clue of where, when, who or why as to their existence. They do know they exist and that fact they even complicate as to why they exist. What is really sadly humorous is they have not a clue of where their going or what their suppose to do to get there. Mainstream Christianity is at odds with itself in over 10,000 different versions of itself...talk about multiple personalities :) And who said God wasn't the author of confusion? He has to be as all 10,000 of those different Christian religions claim to be the correct one!
Of being a god, of course mainstream Christianity wouldn't ever understand that if a God created us as it's sons and daughters, that would literally make us little gods and goddesses because our creator and Father is a God, the God.
See, God the creator didn't make dogs his sons and daughters. Neither did he make whales or monkeys or chimps or giraffes or eagles or mice or rats or Toucans or gophers or any other living specie his "sons and daughters". They were just called other species of all the living things he created.
But we humans, we are the ONLY specie of ALL THE CREATIONS THAT GOD MADE that he calls sons and daughters. He did that for a special reason. He did that to reveal his relationship to us and ours to him.
See, a big God created a bunch of little gods and goddesses he addressed as sons and daughters because he said he was our Father and our God. On this planet he gave us the potential to be fathers and mothers of our own sons and daughters as he created us. But of course mainstream Christianity as you pointed out misses all that information and what it means. But that is okay. The ignorant shall lead the ignorant with the scriptures. But God shall lead those that listen to what he has to say. And what he whispers to one, he will whisper to others and they will hear the same message and shall come together, amazed that they understand the same thing of the Lord without having met each other before.
But the ignorant leading the ignorant in the scriptures, that is all there shall be :)

If Mormons are Christian then Christians are Muslim. One of the first elements of Christianity was monogamy. It's like circumcision to Jewish and Muslim men. The Mormons are a cult created in the United States in the 19th century or something. No, Mormons are not Christian. It is suprising to me how little people know about Christianity in the United States. I am of European descent in the United States and Europeans have lived through over a thousand years of Christianity. People just know the basics and know how Christianity is applied. You don't mix state and religion, because you know religion. I don't think many people in the United States have evolutionized with Christianity. Mormonism is absolutely NOT Christian.

Dana Robertson wrote:

If it really happened, why couldn't Joseph Smith tell a consistent story about such a powerful experience as meeting with God and Jesus Christ face-to-face?
How many people forget their first sexual experience, even decades after the event? How many forget who they were with and what happened? If teenagers can remember details such as year, circumstance and partners involved in their first sexual experience, why couldn't Joseph Smith consistently recall his incredible First Vision?
Why did Joseph Smith's own mother, in the extensive history of her son's life, not mention Joseph ever having a vision from God and Jesus Christ, or that he was persecuted for it?
According to the official story, Joseph Smith told his mother about his first vision story. Although Lucy Mack Smith, the mother of Joseph Smith Jr., wrote a lot of details about her son during the early 1820s, in her history of Joseph's life she did not mention Joseph ever having a visitation from God and Jesus Christ. Nor does she mention any persecution.
You would think that Lucy would mention such an astounding event in her son's life. This was a bigger event than a big foot sighting; this was a visit from God and Jesus Christ! But apparently despite Joseph telling his mother, it was not significant enough for her to mention it in the extensive biography she wrote about her son.
The only element of the first vision story that Lucy mentions is religious revivals around Palmyra, yet she dates them to 1823, not 1820. Historical records of the time corroborate Lucky Mack Smith's dating of revivals in 1823 and none in Palmyra during 1820. See: http://www.irr.org/mit/fvision.html
Bottom line, it's a farce.

Actually, in all of the versions that smith wrote and or dictated someone to write of, the versions remained very consistent in the information they described. The problem is those that hate and detest and have violent emotions for Smith, they see the discrepancies as proof of well made up story and nothing more. They think that because they want to believe it's a made up story because they are so totally biased against Smith(like those so biased against Jesus)that all they wish to believe is what they think is true, thus eliminating any chance to read his story with an unbiased mind. And that is their(your)problem, not Smiths.
And why would his own mom not record the incident as if it were her own? Because it wasn't her vision. Thus the reason why she didn't have a lot to say of it. Probably the same reason why others didn't write about it as you think they should have. It wasn't their vision thus there wasn't a lot to say about it you think?

Dana Robertson wrote:

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You need another enema Cary. You love to strain on gnats and swallow camels. They can't make members clean the chapels but they are doing it anyway, OK. Someone is being made to do it. Pathetic as usual. I attended church Sunday, did you?

lol...once again you prove you know nothing of who cleans the chapel why. But your correct in saying they're doing it anyway.
So let me give you some information you have none of concerning this.
Most members that sign up for chapel duty when it's that's ward's month to clean, they don't show because of extenuating circumstances, like tending to jobs and family and other community activities. Others that sign up well, they just don't keep their word.
If a ward member has asked for help of any kind be it food and or $, the bishop asks them as repayment to help clean the chapel when it's their ward's time to clean it. Different groups are asked to take a Saturday morning during the month like the high priests, or the relief society, or the young men and women group, or the priesthood group.
Many times it'll be the bishop and his family that are there cleaning the chapel by themselves when no one shows.
But by no way or means is anyone forced into coming. If you say you will and you don't, then you don't show. Plain and simple.
Figures you'd bend something out of context you know nothing about. Nice job :)

summeroflanning wrote:

If Mormons are Christian then Christians are Muslim. One of the first elements of Christianity was monogamy.

Bzzzzzzz...wrong answer! The guest gets no prize but a recommendation to read Genesis, where polygamous marriages are happening more often then any monogamous marriage. And let's not mention Abraham and his wives or David and his wives or Solomon and his wives or an ancient Mosaic law allowing Israelite/Hebrew/Jewish men to have four wives least he burst a brain cell in disbelief!