Where was she killed?

joejam wrote:

I just wonder if she was taken out, alive ...in the suitcase. Why bring her back to the basement dead? Why not drop her off in the woods. Going around a home carrying a suitcase would look real suspicious at that time of nite. But then again, I guess carrying a suitcase wouldn't look as suspicious as carrying a dead child or a "stunned one"

You are right - if she was taken out and killed, it would have been far safer to drop her in the wilderness that surrounds Boulder.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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What tends to happen in murder cases is that any real evidence is forgotten and it then becomes a discussion of opinions, rather like discussing something like religion or politics.

Hopefully, we haven't allowed that to happen.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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There is no real evidence JonBenet was murdered in the basement. A possible, and unproven, urine stain in the basement hall, as proof, is very weak evidence.

There is more than that - evidence the garrote was made there, for example... and NO evidence suggesting she was killed elsewhere.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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Lou Smit has said publicly in the past that he believes the murderer may have left the crime scene through the butler pantry door. Why is it so impossible for the murderer not to have gained entry in the first place to the Ramsey house by the butler pantry door, or another door, particularly if he had a key? In my opinion, that�s the way the murderer came, and went, to the murder scene.

Absolutely possible. I know Frank Coffman broke into the house after the murder - jimmied a lock on the butler's dood. if he could do it, anyone could.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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I agree that there probably wouldn�t have been blood spatter if there had been no laceration to JonBenet�s head. I�m still surprised that there doesn�t seem to have been any blood from her nose, or ears, or any tufts of hair, or anything else to indicate she was murdered in the basement. The evidence indicates JonBenet put up a strong fight. There was no sign of a struggle in the basement.

Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you - the fact is, she didn't bleed from her head wound, nose or mouth. As for signs of struggle inthe basement -- the killer was an adult, the child a 45 pound child. Between the stun gun injury and the fact her struggle was mostly to get the ligature from her neck -- how much of a struggle do you really think there was? She was a BABY!

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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Murder victims are often found at a different place to where they were murdered.
It�s plausible that JonBenet was abducted out of the Ramsey house and taken to a secret pedophile party.

Plausable as in a theory, I suppose. But there is NO evidence to support the theory. I admit that 10 years ago some might have been keeping secrets but.... after all this time I don't think anyone really believes NOTHING would have leaked if there was a huge pedophile ring with parties and numerous child victims who would be adults now.

jameson _ justwatching wrote:

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You are right - if she was taken out and killed, it would have been far safer to drop her in the wilderness that surrounds Boulder.

i agree completely with this... Would be unthinkable that someone would take the chance on coming back into the house a second time and getting caught.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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You may well be correct about when Judith Phillips and Tom Miller married. I was always under the impression that they were living together at the time of JonBenet's murder. I may be wrong about that.
There was some gossip once that Judith was having some kind of affair with the National Enquirer journalist, I think called South, at the time of the Stephen Miles case in 1998. All this fast style of life is a bit too much for me to have a thorough grasp of at times.
I think that story by one of Tom Miller's angry clients is still on the internet somewhere. I'm pretty sure it mentions Spade being stabbed by Tom Miller.
I think it was Mame who posted it on Jameson's website a couple of months ago. The trouble is Jameson has gone and deleted masses of postings from her public forum and that particular posting seems to have gone with the rest. I'll try searching for it myself. I have seen it on the internet before. It may still be there somewhere.

Judith was still married when the murder took place but her marriage had been in trouble for quite a while and it didn't survive long after the murder.

I also heard she took up with tabloid reporter John South - heard it from a reliable source. But South wasn't serious. That didn't last - and her marriage sure didn't.

She was living with Miller when Miller's personal diary was taken by search warrant. No secret -- and they were not married.(She sets such a good example for her kids. No wonder certain people didn't want her hanging around their kids!)

I never heard that Miller stabbed anyone - I think you have that comnfused with the Gardiner/Elowsky story.

I did hear Miller and Phillips were heavy drinkers. Didn't hear anything about violent tendencies.
Do know they are not credible witnesses in the Ramsey story -- her story changed, she jumped the fence for the wrong reasons -- and he -- he was hired by Darnat and... they both sold their souls as far as I am concerned.

OK, really need to get ready for a big Thanksgiving. Turning off the computer now.

Hope everyone has a great holiday -- I intend to!

jameson _ justwatching wrote:

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Burke Ramsey and Fleet and Daphne White were all interviewed. They gave NO indication that they had ever been part of such parties.
Nancy had issues and opinions -- but it takes more when investigating a murder -- it takes EVIDENCE.

Nobody has ever suggested that Burke Ramsey was ever involved in a secret pedophile party where Chris Wolf may have been performing some of his exotic dancing. I'm not suggesting any Ramsey was involved either, or had any knowledge about what was going on.

Fleet White was lying through his teeth.

Daphne White might have been in moral danger in the past. I agree with Jameson that there is no evidence Daphne had any knowledge in relation to the JonBenet murder.

Nancy Krebs was told by her mother that JonBenet was murdered by a Fleet White at a secret night pedophile party in 1996. Nancy Krebs' mother and niece were there at the time. It wasn't the Whites' Xmas day kids party with the Ramseys, as Jameson so stubbornly still believes.

Nancy Krebs knew Fleet White. Fleet White admits that fact. Nancy would know if she had been raped by Fleet White, and his father, in the past. Jameson is accusing Nancy Krebs of lying about that fact, which I don't think is right judgment by Jameson.

I agree with Jameson and Lou Smit that you follow the evidence. You go by the evidence in the Ramsey case. There is no evidence JonBenet was murdered in the basement. That theory is complete guesswork and speculation, and assumption.

I agree JonBenet did die of strangulation. You can't just then say that must have been done in the basement becuse there was a pretty little paintbrush handle attached to the garrote. You can't just say the murderer would never have taken her out of the house because of the risk involved. The whole JonBenet murder was a calculated risk.

People who have knowledge in relation to a crime don't always provide information to the police. They don't want to be witnesses, they don't want to be disbelieved and discredited, like Nancy Krebs was, and they don't want to end up dead like Helgoth. There is no money in it for them to provide information to the police about the Ramsey case.

I agree the JonBenet murder taking place in the basement is a plausible theory. It could have happened that way. I think there is no real forensic evidence to back up that theory.

Personally I don't think the Ramsey case can ever be solved until somebody thoroughly and properly investigates the secret pedophile party theory. As long as everybody thinks JonBenet was murdered in the basement, and the intruder gained entry by the basement window, the Ramsey case will never be solved.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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You may well be correct about when Judith Phillips and Tom Miller married. I was always under the impression that they were living together at the time of JonBenet's murder. I may be wrong about that.
There was some gossip once that Judith was having some kind of affair with the National Enquirer journalist, I think called South, at the time of the Stephen Miles case in 1998. All this fast style of life is a bit too much for me to have a thorough grasp of at times.
I think that story by one of Tom Miller's angry clients is still on the internet somewhere. I'm pretty sure it mentions Spade being stabbed by Tom Miller.
I think it was Mame who posted it on Jameson's website a couple of months ago. The trouble is Jameson has gone and deleted masses of postings from her public forum and that particular posting seems to have gone with the rest. I'll try searching for it myself. I have seen it on the internet before. It may still be there somewhere.

No, I didn't ever post this information on Webbsleuths as I've never heard it before.

jameson _ justwatching wrote:

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You are right - if she was taken out and killed, it would have been far safer to drop her in the wilderness that surrounds Boulder.

And wilderness was a mere few blocks away at Chautauqua Park and other wilderness areas very close.

Nancy Drew wrote:

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No, I didn't ever post this information on Webbsleuths as I've never heard it before.

I hope I'm not dreaming about this Tom Miller stabbing Tal Jones incident. I can't now find any reference to it on the internet. It may have vanished because it was all a bit too hot.

There seems to have been an angry client of Tom Miller's who posted his complaints about Tom Miller on the internet. He mentioned Tom Miller overcharging some clients, and that sort of thing, and said that Tom Miller stabbed Tal Jones once. I accept that's not evidence that it happened.

I seem to remember this angry client said he had spent a few months in prison on what he says was for political reasons. He seemed to have used Tom Miller as his lawyer and wasn't at all satisfied with Tom Miller's legal advice.

I don't like it when Ramsey case relevant information suddenly vanishes from the internet. Keith Andrews was somebody who thought JonBenet had been abducted out of the house. His website has vanished as well.

I wish now I had copied and filed that information when it was on the internet.

I think I saved some info on Keith Andrews I'll post for you tomorrow.

Henrietta, here is a link to Keith Andrews site. He no longer has his Ramsey page active...at least I can't find it. I do have his theory saved although I suppose you remember it.

http://detectiveandrews.tripod.com/

I remember posting some quite long extracts of the Keith Andrew, Ramsey case theory, on Purgatory forum and on Jameson's forum a few years ago.

I think my postings on Jameson's forum about the matter have now all been deleted. There may still be some on Purgatory forum. I couldn't find them when I attempted to the last time I looked.

I don't think Keith Andrews ever mentioned anything about a secret Christmas night pedophile party.

The thing that interested me about the Keith Andrews theory was that he beleved JonBenet was murdered at Fleet White's old rental house. Keith Andrews did mention something about JonBenet hairs and fibers, and a connection there with the Ramsey back garden. I'm not sure that has ever been verified, but it interested me at the time.

Jameson has said in the past that there were inaccuracies in what Keith Andrews wrote. I don't think that what he wrote was entirely scientifically correct or factually correct.

If my memory serves me correctly I think the posting about the possible stabbing of Tal Jones by Tom Miller may have been put up by Margoo on Jameson's public forum a couple of months ago. I hope I'm not upsetting Margoo by saying that. I may be wrong about that. There were great discussions going on about Stephen Singular at the time. Much of that has recently been deleted.

I have found a couple of websites where angry clients seem to be complaining about Tom Miller. Those websites seem to be a bit of a jumble. I haven't found the quote about the stabbing of Tal Jones which I'm interested in yet:

http://www.docslaw.com/

Another seemingly angry client of Boulder lawyer, and Ramsey case character Tom Miller:

http://www.felonyforgiveness.com/

jameson _ justwatching wrote:

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OK, really need to get ready for a big Thanksgiving. Turning off the computer now.
Hope everyone has a great holiday -- I intend to!

Thank you...:0) Happy Thanksgiving to you too Jameson.....:0)

Could somebody post a link to the purgatory site.... Please...

Or maybe just some hints on how to find it.... I found something, but it was a bit freaky and I couldn't find any posters I recognized.....:0(

Thank you...:0)

Autumn wrote:

Could somebody post a link to the purgatory site.... Please...
Or maybe just some hints on how to find it.... I found something, but it was a bit freaky and I couldn't find any posters I recognized.....:0(
Thank you...:0)

If you type in:

Ken Polzin

into Google you come up with a whole list of Ramsey case related sites. Purgatory forum is included.

I've got a feeling you might have to join the Purgatory forum in order to read the postings. It's not terribly complicated, or difficult. It's no more difficult than joining Topix forum.

Purgatory forum has gone rather quiet in the past year or so. There only seem to be a few posters active at the moment. It was very busy at the time of that Scott Peterson case. When that was decided a lot of posters seemed to vanish.

Jayelles and Eagle seem to post there quite frequently. You may know them from other JonBenet forums.

The host and moderator Keebu used to post a lot on Purgatory forum but for some reason she hasn't posted there for about a year.

Purgatory is part of Delphi forums. There seems to be hundreds of other Delphi forums covering every topic under the sun, including politics. I suppose you could post on those Delphi forums as well if you were interested.

I'm sorry if the theory that JonBenet may not have been murdered in the Ramsey basement sounds certifiably lunatic.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that JonBenet may have been murdered in the basement. It's just I would like Jameson, and Lou Smit, and the Boulder police, to list me ten good reasons why they KNOW she was murdered in the basement.

If somebody comes on the internet and says that Steve Thomas, and the narcotics cop William Ivory in the MacDonald case, knew exactly what happened in the murders they dealt with, I would have my doubts and very little confidence in what they said.

When Steve Thomas says he has a 'hypothetical scenario' that Patsy murdered JonBenet during a rage in the Ramsey bathroom I'm almost tempted to laugh. When Jameson, or even Lou Smit, say that it's obvious that JonBenet was murdered in the basement because that's where the body was found I'm skeptical.

I want some real proof, and hard documentary evidence. Not a lot of waffle about urine stains and spiders webs.

I feel at the moment the Ramsey case may never be solved. I think if there was a secret pedophile party where JonBenet was murdered then it will be covered up. It's politically embarrassing. There could be people from Lockheed Martin, and doctors and lawyers, who don't want any bad publicity. I think any police who may get too close may be taken off the case.

The simplest way of covering it up is to say JonBenet was murdered in the Ramsey basement and there was no secret pedophile party, and trying to accuse the innocent Ramseys.

I think if JonBenet had been taken out of the house there might have been little clues if she had brushed against hedges, or trees, as she was being abducted.

That branch of forensic science is not unknown, although there is a shortage of specialists in Britian and America. In New Zealand the sort of mud, or plant, life found on a murder victim, or on a suspect's shoes and clothes, has often been used to convict murderers.

This is part of a forensic science article about the matter, on the internet, with regard to the OJ Simpson case from www.crimeandclues.com :

"In spite of all the television coverage and media attention, both the prosecution and defense missed one potentially valuable piece of evidence--forensic pollen evidence that might have been attached to the defendant's clothing. Had the clothing that Simpson supposedly wore on the night of the crime been examined, it might have contained certain types of pollen that the prosecution could have used to link the suspect to the scene of the crime. If the examination revealed no pollen, that evidence could have been used by the defense to argue that the defendant was not at the scene of the crime.

Testimony during the Simpson trial suggested that the person, or persons, who committed the double murder may have hidden in bushes in front of the Simpson home waiting for the victims. If this assumption is correct, it is possible that pollen from the flowers on the bushes, or pollen that may have fallen from the flowers onto the bushes' leaves might have brushed off on the assailant's clothing. If that occurred, then it would have left a "pollen fingerprint" on the person's clothing that could have linked the killer to the crime scene."

I doubt Lou Smit would rule out the possibility that JonBenet was killed elsewhere...he is not so narrow in his investigative style to rule it out. I don't think he has ever said it was not a possibility.

I know for sure Smit has not shared every possibility as to how this murder took place.

Nancy Drew wrote:

I doubt Lou Smit would rule out the possibility that JonBenet was killed elsewhere...he is not so narrow in his investigative style to rule it out. I don't think he has ever said it was not a possibility.
I know for sure Smit has not shared every possibility as to how this murder took place.

I could be wrong but since he is such a good friend of Jameson, I'll bet he has shared about everything he knows concerning this case with her; plus he, I feel certain, has shared everything he knows with Michael Tracey since they worked together on these documentaries. Just my opinion, of course.

Patricia, I can guarantee you that's not the case.

Henrietta McPhee wrote:

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If you type in:
Ken Polzin
into Google you come up with a whole list of Ramsey case related sites. Purgatory forum is included.
I've got a feeling you might have to join the Purgatory forum in order to read the postings. It's not terribly complicated, or difficult. It's no more difficult than joining Topix forum.
Purgatory forum has gone rather quiet in the past year or so. There only seem to be a few posters active at the moment. It was very busy at the time of that Scott Peterson case. When that was decided a lot of posters seemed to vanish.
Jayelles and Eagle seem to post there quite frequently. You may know them from other JonBenet forums.
The host and moderator Keebu used to post a lot on Purgatory forum but for some reason she hasn't posted there for about a year.
Purgatory is part of Delphi forums. There seems to be hundreds of other Delphi forums covering every topic under the sun, including politics. I suppose you could post on those Delphi forums as well if you were interested.

Thank you Henrietta...:0)