Suspect- Michael Helgoth

Michael Helgoth, another Boulder resident apparently shot himself the day after the DA announced that they were closing in on JonBenet's killer. Boots matching the footprint as well as a stun gun and cap with the initials "SBTC" were found at his apartment. The possibility that he had been shot by someone else who feared being caught was explored by the police but no arrests were made.

John Kenady approached the Boulder Police to tell them about someone he thought might have been involved in the Ramsey killing. It was this man, Michael Helgoth, who helped run a car salvage yard in Boulder. Helgoth had committed suicide, it was believed, just hours after Alex Hunter’s press conference. According to Kenady and others, he had been violent and bizarre.

John Kenady: He liked shooting guns. He had a little crotch pocket, so he’d reach down and grab it and he’d point the pistol right at your head and just shoot off the side of it and then if he just missed a tenth of a second, you’d have a bullet in you. It was kinda unnerving.

Helgoth friend: I was actually scared, I was standing behind him when the bullets were flying by my head. He would shoot the cats in the back

John Kenady: He thought that was great sport. He had a fun time with that because he could kill. I think he liked to. Something that he enjoyed quite well and he ended up getting kittens from the junkyard there and picking them up and wrenching their neck ...just killing them with his bare hands.

Narrator: It was not only violence against animals that excited Helgoth.

John Kenady: We were walking along headed toward the house and he just casually comes up and says “I wonder what it would be like to crack a human skull”, you know I looked at him and I thought “Woah, I don’t want to have this conversation” and just laughed it off.

Narrator: Helgoth left no suicide note. After his death, Kenady was asked to go through his possessions. It was while doing this that he began to think Helgoth might have been involved in the killing of JonBenét.

John Kenady: Alex Hunter, where he makes the finger-wagging speech on the 13th and then Michael dies on the very next day?...

DA Alex Hunter: Soon, there will be no one on the list ...

John Kenady: Seems a little suspicious to me.

Narrator: But it was more than Alex Hunter’s press conference that led Kenady to suspect Helgoth.

John Kenady: Mike was pretty happy around late November about him and a partner making a killer deal and they were each gonna make fifty or sixty thousand.

Narrator: The ransom note left at the Ramsey home demanded a curious $118,000, close to the amount Helgoth had said he and his unknown partner would make. No ransom was paid.

John Kenady: And then Christmas goes..comes and then he’s really depressed and there’s no money. And then he said that he wanted to crack a human skull and then she received a crack on her skull and I felt obligated to go to the police department and tell them what I knew.

Narrator: Three months after the murder of JonBenét Ramsey, the Boulder Police were told that this man, Michael Helgoth, might have been involved. They ignored the information, but a new team of detectives appointed last year, have taken it seriously. They’ve discovered Helgoth had an infatuation with young girls. A girlfriend says that he actually collected Barbie dolls. She eventually had to take out a restraining order on him to protect her daughter. She had come home unexpectedly one evening and found her on his bed. He was in bed naked. He said he couldn’t trust himself with her daughter.

Ollie Gray: I think this is very relevant to our case. We’re looking at a potential paedophile. This has all the characteristics of sexual deviation. The age bracket of the child was within two years of the one we were investigating and I felt that it should go further.

Narrator: Detectives found out something else about Helgoth that caught their attention. It was among his videos. What they contained, they say, is significant. They found not only a lot of violent scenes like this (film clip of lone gunman shooting at crowds of young people), but numerous images of children including this one from the Disney family film ‘The Santa Clause’ showing a little girl being awoken by Father Christmas on Christmas Eve. JonBenét was awoken by someone on Christmas Night.

John San Augustine: In a lot of these types of investigations you see that these criminals hide their activity within media. What they’ll do is, they’ll play a movie and then somewhere in the middle of the movie, they will put their piece of their criminal activity within that video and when you look at the Helgoth video, you know, here you have a movie that’s playing along and then all of a sudden you have news coverage of an unsolved murder here in Colorado (News 4 news clip).

Narrator: The news story that Helgoth had kept, told of the abduction and murder of a five year old girl. It occurred near Boulder three years before JonBenét’s killing. It too remains unsolved.

Narrator: These detectives do not see Helgoth as the actual killer, in fact, DNA samples taken at a post mortem show that he was not. But they think he may have been involved. One reason is that they’ve always believed it likely that more than one person was in the Ramsey home that night. The footprints suggest this as do the number of objects taken in and out of the house. These include a rope, stun gun, cord and duct tape. It would have been difficult for just one person to have done everything that was done that night. And the ransom note also suggests that more than one person was involved. It says,“We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction”. It warns about the “two gentlemen watching over your daughter”. Throughout, it refers to the kidnappers in the plural. The new team of detectives think Helgoth may well have been involved as an accomplice of an even more deadly killer. One who later murdered him to stop him talking after Alex Hunter’s unnerving press conference.

In trying to identify a potential killer, they came up with an important clue. In the months before the murder, up to a dozen houses near the Ramseys’ were broken into at night. There was a curious pattern to these burglaries. Little or nothing was taken. Detectives believe they were carried out simply for the thrill of stalking others at night. The break-ins stopped abruptly after the murder. The Boulder Police did not link them to the murder, but the new investigators believe they might be the key to everything because Helgoth too used to stalk people at night. It happened to John Kenady.

John Kenady: I was working on a car late one evening in my garage. I kind of get the feeling there’s something out there and went right up to the window to look. I looked, and it was real quiet and I don’t see anything. I look again and all I could see were a pair of eyes coming out of the black. I don’t know why I figure well this could be Michael, so I said “Is that you Mike? And he goes “Yeah” and I said “Well how long you been out there?” and he goes “Long enough” and ... he’s gone. I thought it was kinda strange.

Narrator: Helgoth used to stalk people at night dressed in black ninja clothing. When looking for his possible killer, detectives looked for a violent associate who shared his interest in martial arts and young girls. They immediately came up with one. A close associate who has since disappeared. A man who frightens those around him.
John Kenady: He threatened to cut one of his girlfriend’s ears off. His ex-wife -- he tried to kill her. They were only married probably five or six days.
Narrator: Helgoth’s associate lived in this trailer park near the car salvage yard. The makers of this programme know his name, but have decided to withhold it, because he has not been charged with any offence. But the more that has been discovered about him, the more he fits the profile of a stalker and a killer.
Second Man: He was very methodical. He wanted everything down to the last detail. He ... didn’t want anybody else to have any control. If he didn’t feel like he was controlling a situation, he would lash out.
John Kenady: Martial arts, he liked those throwing knives, he was into ninja, he was into the dark clothing, he always wore a black t-shirt, black pants, black boots...
Narrator: Helgoth’s associate was convicted following a stabbing here on the trailer park. Witnesses were too frightened to give evidence but court documents summarised his criminal record as “violence -- history of sexual assault”. They also reveal that he was a convicted paedophile. He was imprisoned in the 1980s for a sexual assault on a child. It is believed that he may have worked in the Ramsey home, shortly before the family moved in. Unidentified animal hairs were found in the cellar where JonBenét’s body was left. The hairs were of two colours. Helgoth’s associate raised wolf dogs whose hairs exactly match those colours. Helgoth had bought two of these dogs.

lol

Autopsy results showed evidence that JonBenet may have been subdued with a stun gun, and then eventually killed with an intricately tied device known as a garrot.

The current investigation also focuses on the possibility of two intruders, because of two very clear, and different, boot prints in the room where JonBenet was found. And, there's another clue investigators are interested in: a rope found in the bedroom next to JonBenet's.

What's more, detectives are now seriously investigating a lead that was ignored years earlier: a report of an unknown blue van spotted outside the Ramsey house the night before and the day after JonBenet was murdered.

After a murder investigation that went nowhere, the answer to the question, "Who killed JonBenet," is likely in the Denver police department crime lab.

"I believe the technology of today makes it extraordinarily difficult for a killer not to leave his calling card," says police forensic specialist Greg LaBerge, referring to the suspect's complete DNA profile.

He believes he has the DNA for the man he suspects is the killer of JonBenet Ramsey: "It would be very, very helpful to the investigation to have that DNA matched to an individual."

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.
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48 Hours has learned that the DA's office is using this DNA profile to investigate several suspects in the case.

One of those suspects came to light in a most dramatic way. It was early in 1997, when Alex Hunter, then Boulder district attorney, made a startling announcement: "I want to say something to the person or persons that took this baby from us. The list of suspects narrows. Soon, there will be no one on the list but you."

Those words were written by the FBI as part of a strategy to put the killer and any accomplices under pressure. That strategy may have worked. But just two days later, the Boulder Sheriff's Department discovered a man by the name of Michael Helgoth, dead in his home, an apparent suicide.

Did he have anything to do with JonBenet's murder? "We were walking along at the end of the day, just as calm as can be. He just casually comes up and says,'I wonder what it'd be like to crack a human skull,'" says John Kenady, who worked with Helgoth at an auto salvage yard outside of Boulder. "And I looked at him and I thought,'Whoa, I don't want to have this conversation.'"

Just a few months before JonBenet's murder, Kenady says he noticed a change in Helgoth's attitude: "Mike was pretty happy around late November, about him and a partner making a killer deal, and they were each gonna make $50,000 or $60,000."

Kenady didn't think anything of it, until he read in newspapers about the ransom note found at the Ramsey home that demanded a curious $118,000. It was close to the amount Helgoth had said he and his unknown partner would make -– and it was a ransom that was never paid to anyone.

"Then Christmas goes -- comes. And then he's really depressed. And there's no money. And then he said that he wanted to crack a human skull," says Kenady. "And then, she received a crack in her skull. I felt obligated to go to the police department and tell them what I knew."

Gray says Kenady "provided a very relevant piece of information that should have been a priority lead for the Boulder police department." Kenady says he called 10-20 times, but got no response: "No one would call me back."

"I got the distinct feeling that they had absolutely no interest in anything that took them away from the theory that John and Patsy Ramsey killed their daughter," says Gray, even though he and San Augustin were convinced Helgoth was worth a closer look.

"His friends say that he owns several stun guns, that he was a gun nut," adds Gray. "And supposedly through the sources that we talked to, that he used to break into people's houses just for the thrill of doing it."

The stun gun is important because Gray and San Augustin believe, from examining autopsy photos, that JonBenet was incapacitated with one at some point during her attack.

"In that time frame, 1995-95 time frame, the only stun gun that had a laser sight on it was Air Taser," says Gray, who adds that he believes this was the same type of stun gun used on JonBenet.

San Augustin adds that the high-tech boots, which they later took into possession, were originally ignored by investigators in Helgoth's home. But they were later discovered by Kenady and passed on to Gray and San Augustin.

San Augustin showed 48 Hours the underside of Helgoth's boot. "On the left is the high tech impression that was made in the area where JonBenet's body was found," says San Augustin. "There's no reason for Helgoth's boot to be in the Ramsey home where JonBenet's body was found."

The investigators turned the boots over to the Boulder police, who now claim their investigation showed they were the wrong size for a match. But they have yet to be turned over to the district attorney for further analysis.

The private detectives in their investigation also uncovered a number of Helgoth's personal video tapes that they say the sheriff's office ignored. San Augustin says they found one piece of video that included coverage of an unsolved murder in Colorado.

But what was even more disturbing were videotapes of Helgoth and one of his girlfriend's children. "The ex-girlfriend and he had a major argument over supposedly her coming home and finding the daughter in the bedroom, and he was in bed under covers and she was on the covers," says Gray. "They had a big fight and there were temporary restraining orders issued."

Most surprising of all, however, was the nature of Helgoth's suicide. Investigators initially said he died from a bullet to his head. But in fact, Gray says, the fatal shot was nowhere near his head.

"The gun was found on Michael's right and he's right-handed," says Gray. "The bullet hole is on Michael's left and it goes across the body from left to right."

"It became really odd to us that he would then take the gun and bring it around and then try and shoot himself," adds San Augustin. "It doesn't make sense why you would have somebody commit suicide in that manner."

The investigators were left with only one conclusion. Someone killed Helgoth. Why?

"If he's one of two people involved in a major, major-major death of a small girl, what's the best way to eliminate an -- you know, the word getting out that you had any involvement in it?" asks Gray. "You eliminate your partner."
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Was Helgoth involved in JonBenet's murder -- and was he killed by a partner for what he knew? In the Ramsey ransom note, there was the mention of "two gentleman who are watching over your daughter."

"If you look at the case real close, you'll see that quite possibly there was more than one person involved," says San Augustin.

But there is one thing investigators are sure of: Helgoth's DNA does not match the DNA profile sitting in the Denver crime lab.

"Investigators must be careful not to put all the weight in the investigation on the DNA because the DNA, as important as it is, could be misleading them, depending on who it matches or who it doesn't match," says LaBerge.

It could mean that if Helgoth was involved, he wasn't alone. And the person who sexually assaulted and killed JonBenet is still out there.

"There's a Dance West school where the victim of the assault in our case, the one that we investigated, and the Ramsey girl, both attended," says Peterson, who now believes Jon Benet was first targeted at that dance studio because of what happened to his client, just nine months after JonBenet was murdered.

Like JonBenet, she took lessons at Dance West. And like JonBenet, another girl, who is identified as "Amy," was attacked and sexually assaulted at night in her own bedroom on Sept. 14, 1997.

That night, Amy's father was out of town. After catching a movie, Amy and her mother returned home late. What they didn't know when they entered the house was that there was already an intruder inside.

Amy's father, who asked that his identity be obscured, agreed to talk about what happened that night: "My feeling is he got into the house while they were out and hid inside the house, so he would have been in there for perhaps four to six hours, hiding."

Before going to bed, Amy's mother turned on the burglar alarm. Around midnight, Amy woke up to find a man standing over her bed, his hand over her mouth. "She remembered the intruder addressing her by her name," says Peterson. "He said,'I know who you are.' He repeated those things a few times, apparently.'I'll knock you out. Shut up.'"

Peterson says Amy's mother heard whispering, and proceeded through the doorway, and saw a person, who just brushed her aside and quickly made his escape by jumping out a second-floor window.

"He was like a ghost," recalls Amy's father. "We couldn't figure out where he came from, or where he went."

By the time the Boulder police arrived, the man was long gone. Because the intruder had gotten in and out of the house so easily, Amy's father began to think this wasn't the first time he had done something like this.

"The first thing that occurred to us was that it was the parallel to the Ramsey case because it was exactly the same situation," says Amy's father, who even told the Boulder police about the Dance West studio connection to the Ramsey case. "I think someone, somewhere, drew a bead on her. Obviously had us under surveillance that we were not aware of."

The studio has since gone out of business and been torn down, but photos show that there was a balcony overlooking the dance floor where parents and anyone else could come in and watch the children.

But Amy's dad says that when he told the police detectives about the information he had, "they were completely uninterested in it."

"They were very frustrated," says Peterson. "It was difficult to get them to do anything much less, you know, beyond taking a report."

But not only did the Boulder police dismiss any link to the Ramsey case, they didn't even bother to use the mother's eyewitness description to make a composite sketch. That's when Amy's family hired Peterson. What he has uncovered in his investigation may not only solve Amy's case, but also help lead to the capture of JonBenet's killer.

"This person is someone with a huge ego, someone who views himself as bold," says Peterson, who believes there are too many parallels between Amy's case and JonBenet's murder.

Both JonBenet and Amy were sexually assaulted by an intruder at night in their homes -- within nine months of each other. Fiber evidence shows that JonBenet's attacker may have been wearing black, as was the man who attacked Amy. And there's the fact that both girls took lessons at the Dance West studio.

Michael Helgoth was not involved in the murder he was my moms boyfriend at the time and they think he might of known something or the person who did it and the killed him it was not a sucide i dont believe because the gun was placed on the left side of him but he was right handed!

Amber wrote:

Michael Helgoth was not involved in the murder he was my moms boyfriend at the time and they think he might of known something or the person who did it and the killed him it was not a sucide i dont believe because the gun was placed on the left side of him but he was right handed!

Hi Amber. I think you are right. I think Helgoth might have known something. I think it is very odd that neither his guardians or his biological parents asked for a review of his death in light of the expert opinions. Why wouldn't they want the killer caught? Doesn't anyone care? Can you ask you mother if Helgoth had an interest in Hitler or nazi memorabelia like Gigax made.
I am also hearing from a reliable source that (contrary to forum gossip) Helgoth's DNA was NOT tested against the Ramsey profile. How can this be??? And since he was cremated this would be difficult to check at this point. Thank you for your input Amber.

Biz wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi Amber. I think you are right. I think Helgoth might have known something. I think it is very odd that neither his guardians or his biological parents asked for a review of his death in light of the expert opinions. Why wouldn't they want the killer caught? Doesn't anyone care? Can you ask you mother if Helgoth had an interest in Hitler or nazi memorabelia like Gigax made.
I am also hearing from a reliable source that (contrary to forum gossip) Helgoth's DNA was NOT tested against the Ramsey profile. How can this be??? And since he was cremated this would be difficult to check at this point. Thank you for your input Amber.

Well biz, maybe your sources aren't as reliable as you think. I just watched the Ramsey telethon hosted by Aphrodite Jones when they showed how disappointed they all were that Helgoth's DNA was not a match.

I guess they'll have to wait until someone else dies with nobody in the family who cares to point the finger at.

Capricorn wrote:

<quoted text>
Well biz, maybe your sources aren't as reliable as you think. I just watched the Ramsey telethon hosted by Aphrodite Jones when they showed how disappointed they all were that Helgoth's DNA was not a match.
I guess they'll have to wait until someone else dies with nobody in the family who cares to point the finger at.

The IDIs have always liked dead suspects. ;)
Biz has been told Helgoth's DNA was tested and didn't match a dozen times or more. Chances are she will be back next week and say it all over again. Just like she will bring up the Gigax name even though articles have been posted for her where the police said he was never a suspect. You are wasting your energy Cappy.

Capricorn wrote:

<quoted text>
Well biz, maybe your sources aren't as reliable as you think. I just watched the Ramsey telethon hosted by Aphrodite Jones when they showed how disappointed they all were that Helgoth's DNA was not a match.
I guess they'll have to wait until someone else dies with nobody in the family who cares to point the finger at.

So do RDIs.

Legal__Eagle wrote:

<quoted text>
The IDIs have always liked dead suspects. ;)
Biz has been told Helgoth's DNA was tested and didn't match a dozen times or more. Chances are she will be back next week and say it all over again. Just like she will bring up the Gigax name even though articles have been posted for her where the police said he was never a suspect. You are wasting your energy Cappy.

So do RDIs; the DNA didn't match the Ramseys, either.

deb wrote:

<quoted text>
So do RDIs; the DNA didn't match the Ramseys, either.

True, but as an RDI, as with most RDI's, the DNA is not as significant as the IDI's portray it. The fact that Helgoth's DNA didn't match doesn't mean as much to me, as well as any other NON match as it does to many IDIs who throw out "DNA" whenever the Ramsey name is mentioned. It can't be both ways. EIther the DNA is "all that" or it isn't. If it is everything the IDI claim it to be, then Helgoth is eliminated, as is Karr, FW, Santa, LHP, and all the other names that continue to be mentioned. Unless of course, the new TWO intruder/s theory is the new intruder theory.

The IDIs have placed all their eggs in the DNA basket and I'm just pointing that out to biz and the other IDI posters who like to excuse the Ramseys because of the DNA but nobody else

DETROIT wrote:

Narrator: Helgoth may well have been involved as an accomplice of an even more deadly killer. One who later murdered him to stop him talking after Alex Hunter’s unnerving press conference.
In trying to identify a potential killer, they came up with an important clue. In the months before the murder, up to a dozen houses near the Ramseys’ were broken into at night. There was a curious pattern to these burglaries. Little or nothing was taken. Detectives believe they were carried out simply for the thrill of stalking others at night. The break-ins stopped abruptly after the murder. The Boulder Police did not link them to the murder, but the new investigators believe they might be the key to everything because Helgoth too used to stalk people at night. It happened to John Kenady.
John Kenady: I was working on a car late one evening in my garage. I kind of get the feeling there’s something out there and went right up to the window to look. I looked, and it was real quiet and I don’t see anything. I look again and all I could see were a pair of eyes coming out of the black. I don’t know why I figure well this could be Michael, so I said “Is that you Mike? And he goes “Yeah” and I said “Well how long you been out there?” and he goes “Long enough” and ... he’s gone. I thought it was kinda strange.
Narrator: Helgoth used to stalk people at night dressed in black ninja clothing. When looking for his possible killer, detectives looked for a violent associate who shared his interest in martial arts and young girls. They immediately came up with one. A close associate who has since disappeared. A man who frightens those around him.
John Kenady: He threatened to cut one of his girlfriend’s ears off. His ex-wife -- he tried to kill her. They were only married probably five or six days.
Narrator: Helgoth’s associate lived in this trailer park near the car salvage yard. The makers of this programme know his name, but have decided to withhold it, because he has not been charged with any offence. But the more that has been discovered about him, the more he fits the profile of a stalker and a killer.
Second Man: He was very methodical. He wanted everything down to the last detail. He ... didn’t want anybody else to have any control. If he didn’t feel like he was controlling a situation, he would lash out.
John Kenady: Martial arts, he liked those throwing knives, he was into ninja, he was into the dark clothing, he always wore a black t-shirt, black pants, black boots...
Narrator: Helgoth’s associate was convicted following a stabbing here on the trailer park. Witnesses were too frightened to give evidence but court documents summarised his criminal record as “violence -- history of sexual assault”. They also reveal that he was a convicted paedophile. He was imprisoned in the 1980s for a sexual assault on a child. It is believed that he may have worked in the Ramsey home, shortly before the family moved in. Unidentified animal hairs were found in the cellar where JonBenét’s body was left. The hairs were of two colours. Helgoth’s associate raised wolf dogs whose hairs exactly match those colours. Helgoth had bought two of these dogs.

Interesting. Are there pictures of Helgoth? Who is his 'associate'? Why have we heard so little about these characters from the media?

msdefied wrote:

<quoted text>
Interesting. Are there pictures of Helgoth? Who is his 'associate'? Why have we heard so little about these characters from the media?

Anyone who knows anything about the JBR murder has heard of Michael Helgoth. Mainly because he had stun guns as was possibly used on JBR and because of the hat found at his murder which had SBTC which matched the JBR ransom note ending SBTC Victory.

Capricorn wrote:

<quoted text>
Well biz, maybe your sources aren't as reliable as you think. I just watched the Ramsey telethon hosted by Aphrodite Jones when they showed how disappointed they all were that Helgoth's DNA was not a match.
I guess they'll have to wait until someone else dies with nobody in the family who cares to point the finger at.

This is what everyone was told but I am still trying to see why this source says it was not done. It doesn't make sense to me. However I do not trust the Boulder PD. They could have lied.

Legal__Eagle wrote:

<quoted text>
The IDIs have always liked dead suspects. ;)
Biz has been told Helgoth's DNA was tested and didn't match a dozen times or more. Chances are she will be back next week and say it all over again. Just like she will bring up the Gigax name even though articles have been posted for her where the police said he was never a suspect. You are wasting your energy Cappy.

Gigax's DNA was never tested either. He offered receipts from years later to show he was not in Boulder that night. Who keeps receipts for years? He could have gotten them from a friend who saved receipts for business purposes.
Personally I think Helgoth of framed and killed, possibly by the real killer of JBR.
But to be fair, even profilers say there is a good chance the killer is dead so Helgoth should have been thoroughly ruled out. I thought he had been. Now I am hearing otherwise. It doesn't make sense. I agree. But I am curious as to why it is being questioned.

Biz wrote:

<quoted text>
Gigax's DNA was never tested either. He offered receipts from years later to show he was not in Boulder that night. Who keeps receipts for years? He could have gotten them from a friend who saved receipts for business purposes.
Personally I think Helgoth of framed and killed, possibly by the real killer of JBR.
But to be fair, even profilers say there is a good chance the killer is dead so Helgoth should have been thoroughly ruled out. I thought he had been. Now I am hearing otherwise. It doesn't make sense. I agree. But I am curious as to why it is being questioned.

My DNA and your DNA wasn't tested either. Why? Because we aren't suspects and neither was Gigax. Just because a name gets thrown out under the bus by Michael Tracey, doesn't mean that they have to spend taxpayer money for everyone whose name is mentioned. First you have to be a suspect. There are a lot of bad guys out there whose DNA wasn't tested because they aren't suspects in this case

The only people who haven't ruled out Helgoth, Gigax et al are the internet posters and RST, who will hang on to any name that isn't Ramsey.