The one thing I can't figure out

Why were her arms up? It is so pointless but may be relevant. Even if she was in rigor and moved how did they get there in the first place? Why wrap her up only to leave the arms out? Was this staging to have the BP see her bound wrists in case they found her first? Was she dragged arms first into the cellar to avoid dna and fiber transfer? There was dirt on the soles of her feet so maybe she was dragged. We know she probably never stood in the wine cellar that night and her feet might have been exposed if she was dragged.

p.s. Please don't start with the suspension theories.

JimmyWells wrote:

Why were her arms up? It is so pointless but may be relevant. Even if she was in rigor and moved how did they get there in the first place? Why wrap her up only to leave the arms out? Was this staging to have the BP see her bound wrists in case they found her first? Was she dragged arms first into the cellar to avoid dna and fiber transfer? There was dirt on the soles of her feet so maybe she was dragged. We know she probably never stood in the wine cellar that night and her feet might have been exposed if she was dragged.
p.s. Please don't start with the suspension theories.

Are there any movies, from that time, that show a kidnapping victim with hands bound above the head? It seems the stager was pulling lines from kidnapping movies...maybe he or she had this image in their brain.

There was no staging for police. Everything that was done was done by Patsy for Patsy. The body was posed with the cords. The raised arms are a gesture of praise. It is no coincidence that the three sisters gathered, raised there arms and chanted Psalms together.

JimmyWells wrote:

p.s. Please don't start with the suspension theories.

Please provide evidence Burke was involved.

If the stick on the neck ligature is pulled up behind the head and placed into a holder and the wrist ligature placed over the same holder, or the stick itself if it is put into a hole, the arms will be raised to the exact position they were found in.

BrotherMoon wrote:

If the stick on the neck ligature is pulled up behind the head and placed into a holder and the wrist ligature placed over the same holder, or the stick itself if it is put into a hole, the arms will be raised to the exact position they were found in.

Are you saying, then, that she remained in that hanging position until rigor mortis set in?

Kolar again, shows that hanging is not consistent with the evidence in this case. Jimmy the whole topic of her arms over her head, that mystery, is one of the first threads I made on this case in 2000. It's still a mystery. Kolar probably knows, he didn't have the room in a 500 page book to synopsize a 60,000 page case file.

learnin wrote:

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Are you saying, then, that she remained in that hanging position until rigor mortis set in?

That is not possible according to the lividity.

Legal__Eagle wrote:

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That is not possible according to the lividity.

I agree. So, if she was hung up at any time, she was taken down before rigor mortis set in and, thus, her arms wouldn't have stayed in position over her head.

learnin wrote:

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I agree. So, if she was hung up at any time, she was taken down before rigor mortis set in and, thus, her arms wouldn't have stayed in position over her head.

and there'd be bruises because she'd have naturally struggled, and the cord would imbed into her wrists. If she was hung up, her arms would be straight, not bent at the elbows like she was found.

For learnin, at what point does that massive head would start gushing blood outside her body? Could they have actually changed her sweater and not disturbed that head wound? Patsy told 2 stories about what JonBenet was wearing when she said she put her to bed, first, 12/26/96, she told cops that JonBenet had on a red turtleneck sweater, then in her interview with the cops on 4/30/96, she said she was in the white sweater w/the star, which she was found on. One possible reason her arms were over her head is they put them tht way in changing her sweater. But how could they do that without the head wound they don't know she has bleeding. It has been filling with blood according to Kolar for the entire 90 minutes after she received the head blow, until she finally died.

candy wrote:

For learnin, at what point does that massive head would start gushing blood outside her body? Could they have actually changed her sweater and not disturbed that head wound? Patsy told 2 stories about what JonBenet was wearing when she said she put her to bed, first, 12/26/96, she told cops that JonBenet had on a red turtleneck sweater, then in her interview with the cops on 4/30/96, she said she was in the white sweater w/the star, which she was found on. One possible reason her arms were over her head is they put them tht way in changing her sweater. But how could they do that without the head wound they don't know she has bleeding. It has been filling with blood according to Kolar for the entire 90 minutes after she received the head blow, until she finally died.

Getting a little out of my expertise here, Candy. But. If the scalp is intact, and it was, then, there will be no bleeding on outside of the body from the scalp. If the auditory canal is intact, then, there will be no bleeding out from the ear. If the sinus cavities are intact, then, there will be no bleeding out from the nose.

So, moving her head around would not have caused any bleeding out if those above mentioned things weren't compromised by fracture into the ear canal, sinuses or scalp laceration. Some have raised objections about capillaries breaking in her ear canal and she could have bled, etc. Anything is possible, I suppose, but the point is that the hemorrhage would not be a result of the skull fracture unless that fracture extended into one of the areas I have mentioned.

When Kolar talks about JBR bleeding for 90 minutes, he is talking about the subarachnoid region. This region is comprised of veins which surround the brain between the skull and the brain. These veins drain the brain's used up blood and return it to the heart to be pumped into the lungs to be oxygenated again. In a skull fracture, or significant head trauma, these veins will slowly ooze blood. Now, in a closed head wound, this blood will leak out slowly in the limited space between the skull and brain and cause a subdural hematoma. As you can imagine, this increases pressure on the brain because there is very little space in the cranium. People, with closed head trauma, who develop subdural bleeding, present with a worsening headache because of the pressure. This is why the surgeon will drill holes into the skull to relieve this pressure. If they do not, the brain can swell and, as in the case of JBR, start to squeeze out the opening where the spine enters thereby shutting down vital components such as breathing, etc.

In JBR's case, her skull was cracked and some of the blood would have oozed out of the skull and into the scalp which covers the skull. In other words, some of the pressure would have been released but not all. When they removed the scalp, they could see hemorrhage along the inside of the scalp. There was also hemorrhage (blood) inside the skull.

But. As long as the scalp and ear canal and sinuses were intact, no blood would have gushed out of Jonbenet.

Thanks so much for that detailed explanation learnin. I greatly appreciate it.

realTopaz wrote:

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and there'd be bruises because she'd have naturally struggled, and the cord would imbed into her wrists. If she was hung up, her arms would be straight, not bent at the elbows like she was found.

Did you not see the bruises on the neck?

The wrist cords suspended only the arms.

The neck ligature suspended the body, get it?

The wrist ligature was placed over whatever held the neck ligature handle thus raising the arms, get it?

learnin wrote:

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Are you saying, then, that she remained in that hanging position until rigor mortis set in?

No. Did you read where I did say that?

I said the arms were raised by the wrist ligature to make a gesture of praise. The body was taken down and placed in the small room. The arms remained raised for whatever reason.

candy wrote:

It has been filling with blood according to Kolar for the entire 90 minutes after she received the head blow,

And there is one of the probably many distortions that will undo this book and the man.

There is a lot of embarrassment headed Kolar's way.

BrotherMoon wrote:

There is a lot of embarrassment headed Kolar's way.

On this you are very wrong BM

BrotherMoon wrote:

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No. Did you read where I did say that?
I said the arms were raised by the wrist ligature to make a gesture of praise. The body was taken down and placed in the small room. The arms remained raised for whatever reason.

So, the arms raised above the head, in rigor mortis, is not evidence that she was suspended, and posed.

IMO, correct.

learnin wrote:

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So, the arms raised above the head, in rigor mortis, is not evidence that she was suspended, and posed.