Hate-crimes bill threatened with Bush veto

Full story: CNN

The White House has threatened to veto a bill passed by the House of Representatives on Thursday that expands hate-crime laws to include attacks based on sexual orientation or gender.

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Since: Dec 06

Atlanta, GA

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#2070
Jun 17, 2007
 
HaHa, nice try jag-off. Read my latest. It is for you and your partner. The "how" that you asked for is in there, since you are apparently lacking the mental capacity to solve a simple multistep problem.
It was nice how you threw in a bunch of nonsense stats, not even closely related to our topic, and tried to make yourself sound believable.
Oh, are you a Sociologist too? Fuc|<ing hysterical.
Blake MacLeod wrote:
<quoted text>
And this supports your statement that whites are far more likely to be the victims of hate crimes - how? Nice try though. The "population adjustment" works when dealing with "projected" numbers. In the case of FBI statistics, we are dealing with the actual number of reported crimes. No matter how one "plays" with the numbers - the actual numbers stay the same. This same "adjustment" was used by Hitler to claim that while Jews made up 1% of the population, they were responsible for about 80% of the crime. Then again with the Rightwing religious groups to manipulate the figures on sexual asssaults against children. While law enforcement agencies and mental health workers state that at least 90% of such assaults, religious extremists using this mathmatical formula declared that since homosexuals account for 1-2% percent of the population ( a percentage much lower than accepted by any other organization) it meant that they were responsible for 33% of sexaul assaults on children. It doesn't work that way. If aan actual number of crimes are committed and an actual amount of those crimes are by a certain group ... the numbers don't change. Makes for very good propaganda though.
Jesse_B_Simple

United States

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#2071
Jun 17, 2007
 
Two Sense wrote:
All I asked for was a simple clarification..
You stated in Full "Its too bad that what you like, and possibly identify, is a figment of someone's imagination! A disingenuous one at that, which is more deluded than truthful! "
I did not understand what you meant by "and possibly identify" or "is a figment of someone's imagination"
I simply made a comment regarding a Joke that someone said that I found humorous.. I wasn't sure what you comments were to exactly mean so I asked you to clarify.. That's All =)
Well, you didn't specify what needed clarification. Perhaps, you were in agreement with the sarcasm and identified with the sentiment.

“Dream a little dream with me”

Since: Dec 06

Peoria, Arizona

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#2072
Jun 17, 2007
 
Ex-Mississippian wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you are a sociologist, here is why: Please folow through to the end or else you will miss something else.
# of hate crimes committed by whites(according to the FBI report we have used) 4635 -found by multiplying the total # of crimes 7649 by .606, the percentage committed by whites.
# of hate crimes committed by blacks(again the FBI report) 1507 same method-7649x.197
# of whites in the country: 211,460,626
# of blacks in the country: 34,658,190
Now, lets find out the ratio of how many people out of each race committed a hate crime.
Whites: 211,460,626 people/4635 hate crimes=45,623. So out of this we can say the 1/45,623 white people committed a hate crime, or 1 hate crime per every 45,623 white people.
Blacks: 34,658,190 people/1506 hate crimes=23,013.
Out of these numbers we can say that 1/23,013 blacks committed a hate crime, or 1 hate crime out of every 23,013 black people.
Therefore, whites are about half as likely to commit a hate crime that blacks or to turn it around, blacks committed hate crimes(based upon the FBI report for that year) at the rate of 1.98/1.
So to sum up, if blacks are more likely to commit a hate crime than whites at a rate of 1.98/1, then it is logical to say that based upon these numbers, or an a per cap basis, whites are more likely to be victims of hate crimes.
Again, yes whites commit more as a total but they make up 75% of the population.
This is not that hard to understand. I know it is a touchy subject these days to call people out based on their race, and though it sounds like it I am not attacking black people here. One can't realistically call out the whole black race because 1/23000 commits a hate crime, but we are talking likelyhood and the numbers speak for themselves.
Sociologist, huh? Most likely a student who took a Sociology class, maybe a Bachelors in Sociology, but no PhD which would make you a Sociolog"ist."
THIS POST IS FOR BLAKE MACLEOD AS WELL
<quoted text>
1 - You err, yet again. Three times, statistically.

2 - Master's in sociology, published, and been doing so for well over a decade. You want me to get a doctorate, fine -- two months and I'm done. Been focused on living a life.

3 - Let's look at your base assumption that really screws you up: that whites are more likely to be the victim.

Read the report. Most of the hate crimes committed by black people aren't based on race.

Most of those by white people are.

Hmmmm....

As for the three mistakes you made, go through your post again -- and I'm not Blake's partner.

My ex and my children are local, and my BF is in TN.

“)O( Brightest Blessings”

Since: Mar 07

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#2073
Jun 18, 2007
 
Jesse_B_Simple wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, you didn't specify what needed clarification. Perhaps, you were in agreement with the sarcasm and identified with the sentiment.
I did, thank you for noticing.

“)O( Brightest Blessings”

Since: Mar 07

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#2074
Jun 22, 2007
 
Seems kind of quiet on here now
JIM

Chicago, IL

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#2075
Sep 1, 2007
 
THE HATE CRIMES BILL IS NAMED AFTER MATTHEW SHEPARD.

MATTHEW SHAPARD HUNG AROUND SLEASY BARS, WAS HIV+, ADDICTED TO DRUGS AND A NON-STOP DRUG USER. HE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS STUPID AND NOT FROM BEING GAY.

END OF STORY.
Will

Rockville, MD

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#2076
Sep 5, 2007
 
JIM wrote:
THE HATE CRIMES BILL IS NAMED AFTER MATTHEW SHEPARD.
MATTHEW SHAPARD HUNG AROUND SLEASY BARS, WAS HIV+, ADDICTED TO DRUGS AND A NON-STOP DRUG USER. HE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS STUPID AND NOT FROM BEING GAY.
END OF STORY.
Is there any indication that the "Matthew Shepard" Bill could have enough votes in the Senate to avoid a filibuster or that the Bill could have enough votes in the House and Senate to override a Bush veto?

What would possibly cause Bush NOT to veto the Bill, even if it should pass the House and Senate?
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2078
Sep 8, 2007
 
JIM wrote:
THE HATE CRIMES BILL IS NAMED AFTER MATTHEW SHEPARD.
MATTHEW SHAPARD HUNG AROUND SLEASY BARS, WAS HIV+, ADDICTED TO DRUGS AND A NON-STOP DRUG USER. HE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS STUPID AND NOT FROM BEING GAY.
END OF STORY.
YOu sound lke you don't know anything about what really happened to Matthew Shephard. The man was murdered, nearly crucified for being gay by isolated, ignorant, hate-ridden white trash. He didn't die, he was killed, plain and simple.

Don't lie!

“GO Back to Sleep”

Since: Aug 07

savannah ga

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#2079
Sep 8, 2007
 
"HATE CRIMES" now theres another example of some politcally correct bullshit......you dont commit crimes of violence because your a happy well rounded person,trying to spread your love.......another way of distorting our joke of a legal system..........
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2080
Sep 8, 2007
 
Baruch Ben Yosef wrote:
"HATE CRIMES" now theres another example of some politcally correct bullshit......you dont commit crimes of violence because your a happy well rounded person,trying to spread your love.......another way of distorting our joke of a legal system..........
It's not really PC to me.

Crimes are motivated by factors and hate is one of them. You can hate all you want, but to commit a crime because you simply hate someone should land you in jail.

After looking at some of the other legals systems in the world, I'd say our's is quite good: having a right to an attorney, a right to remain silent, a right to refuse search and seizure, and being judged by a jury of your peers. I'll take it.

“GO Back to Sleep”

Since: Aug 07

savannah ga

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#2083
Sep 8, 2007
 
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not really PC to me.
Crimes are motivated by factors and hate is one of them. You can hate all you want, but to commit a crime because you simply hate someone should land you in jail.
After looking at some of the other legals systems in the world, I'd say our's is quite good: having a right to an attorney, a right to remain silent, a right to refuse search and seizure, and being judged by a jury of your peers. I'll take it.
I works in theory but until you have been on the otherside and watch it fail time and again its hard to understand how flawed and pathetic it is.It not about truth...prejudice carries more weight.One can have as much justice as one is able to afford and/or pay for.....our jails are human storeage bins for the poor and uneducated. You can twist any crime into a hate crime..its a blanket term.Violent crimes will be put in jail or prison anyway....if you can lable it a hate crime you can get more media attention and fanfare........the spin machine can make it more heinous than it seems...it seels and thats what counts.....
Bill R

Lebanon, OR

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#2084
Sep 8, 2007
 
I can agree with "hate crime" prosecution and
conviction IF it can be proven beyound a reasonable
doubt that the intent of the crime was not simply
against an individual, but against a "community"
of people intending to intimidate or alter their
ability to exist and function normally as
citizens.

That would not be easy to do in most cases, but
that is how it should be. It would need to
demonstrate INTENT, which would mean the testimony
of those who overheard or were present when the
criminal stated it was his desire to do, or
perhaps have made the mistake of putting his
intentions into writing. I do not think it is
truly possible to otherwise prove ... beyond a
reasonable doubt ... what a person was thinking
prior to the commission of a crime.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2085
Sep 8, 2007
 
Tom wrote:
A guy beats the crap out of me and steals my money. Should he get off easier than a guy that beats up a homosexual and takes his money. Of cousrse not. Freedom and justice for ALL. Not freedom and more for justice for homosexuals.
Well it IS justice for you. If you got beat for being straight by a group of hate-ridden gays, then the same scales of justice would apply.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2087
Sep 8, 2007
 
Beckie wrote:
<quoted text>
The same scale wouldny apply. The gays would say he said we were going too hell, the white guy would get charged with hate speech. I wouldnt want no special deal anyway.
Its going to just make a big judical mess. Its already a mess. Its going to expesive to prosecute lawyers are expensive. Assult is assult, murder is murder. It dont matter if they did it because of money, they enjoy gettin a thrill power trip, or he dont like me becuse we are white, black, gay, whatever.
Murder is murder is murder, but to what degree? The law is not that simple and should not be in a civilized society. It has been proven over and over again and again that the facts of a case MUST be brought to light. If a gay man is murdered, then I want to know the details--ALL OF THEM. Was it an actual hate crime? Was it drug related? Was it a crime of passion and who committed the crime. As someone who has served on two juries, I must tell you how important all of this is.

Hate crime laws, like drunk driving laws, are in place to protect people. They are in place to ensure justice and administer the right punishment for crimes committed.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2088
Sep 8, 2007
 
Baruch Ben Yosef wrote:
<quoted text>I works in theory but until you have been on the otherside and watch it fail time and again its hard to understand how flawed and pathetic it is.It not about truth...prejudice carries more weight.One can have as much justice as one is able to afford and/or pay for.....our jails are human storeage bins for the poor and uneducated. You can twist any crime into a hate crime..its a blanket term.Violent crimes will be put in jail or prison anyway....if you can lable it a hate crime you can get more media attention and fanfare........the spin machine can make it more heinous than it seems...it seels and thats what counts.....
No, you cannot twist any crime into a hate crime. That's why investigators and police like to look at EVIDENCE. Not all violent crimes result in people being incarcerated. If that were the case, then domestic violence wouldn't be such a big deal. Hate crimes DO result in incarceration, and that is the point: to keep people motivated by murderous hate away from society. What angers some people is that hurting someone for being gay, black, Catholic, or whatever is a guaranteed ticket to prison once it is obvious that hate motivated the crime.

I have never heard of anyone getting away with just labeling something a hate crime as you say.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

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#2089
Sep 8, 2007
 
Bill R wrote:
I can agree with "hate crime" prosecution and
conviction IF it can be proven beyound a reasonable
doubt that the intent of the crime was not simply
against an individual, but against a "community"
of people intending to intimidate or alter their
ability to exist and function normally as
citizens.
That would not be easy to do in most cases, but
that is how it should be. It would need to
demonstrate INTENT, which would mean the testimony
of those who overheard or were present when the
criminal stated it was his desire to do, or
perhaps have made the mistake of putting his
intentions into writing. I do not think it is
truly possible to otherwise prove ... beyond a
reasonable doubt ... what a person was thinking
prior to the commission of a crime.
It is possible to prove what motivates a hate crime.

If I have posters in my room of black revolutionaries who killed white police officers in the 70's and books written by former Black Panters lying around, if my friends and acquaintences all know me for bad mouthing white people, if my employer has had to counsel me for being racist against white people, if my computer reveals that I build and design anti-white websites, then one day I get arrested for assaulting a white man for no reason and yelling racist epithets at him in the process?

Uhhh .. yeah. I'd say that's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that I would be guilty of a hate crime.
Dust Storm

United States

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#2091
Sep 8, 2007
 
Beckie wrote:
Your full of crap. Murdering for hate, for money, drug related, for the fun thrill of it, these are in the same criminal catagory and should be treated the same. Murder in a state of Passion or accidenial are diffrent. It is that simple. They already got it figured out. Nothing new under the sun here. The homosexuals just want their own little special deal. I dont have nothing to do with justice. In fact it steps into injustice.
I totally agree...What a waste of time this is to appease a special interest group for some imaginary victory. I.E. Two people get in an argument. One is gay but the other doesnt know it. The Gay one dies. Surely its a hate crime. NOT! A mugger robs someone who is gay. Doesnt know them, but its surely because they were gay? Its stupid! An obviously gay man makes a remark to a straight man about his clothing. The straight man fires back. Three gay men proceed to beat up the straight man. Who committed the hate crime? These issues have already come up with hate crime legislations. There are different degrees of murder which already incorporate. Assault is assault regardless of the reason. This act only inspires greater division and problems and lines the pockets of attornies and ruins lives. A crime is a crime. Your race, gender or religion doesnt matter.
Bill R

Lebanon, OR

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#2092
Sep 8, 2007
 
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
It is possible to prove what motivates a hate crime.
If I have posters in my room of black revolutionaries who killed white police officers in the 70's and books written by former Black Panters lying around, if my friends and acquaintences all know me for bad mouthing white people, if my employer has had to counsel me for being racist against white people, if my computer reveals that I build and design anti-white websites, then one day I get arrested for assaulting a white man for no reason and yelling racist epithets at him in the process?
Uhhh .. yeah. I'd say that's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that I would be guilty of a hate crime.
While agree with your logic, the issue is not
that simple. It is not against the law to hate
... blacks, Jews, gays, and those etc. people)
... so it would be necessary to convince a jury
of 12 people that there is sufficient evidence
to link those things you mention to a specific
crime.

For example, if I am a straight guy in a gay
bar who gets into an argument and kills a gay
guy, that is not necessarily a hate crime even
if I have said things or have a poster on my
wall that is anti-gay. On the other hand, if
I simply walked into a gay bar and began shoot-
ing indiscriminately or if I threw a molotov
cocktail thru the window, these might quite
easily be accepted as a hate crime with very
little in the way of supporting evidence.

Since: Dec 06

Warrenville, IL

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#2093
Sep 8, 2007
 
Why do we need another law that discriminates against the hetrosexual white male. Is murder any diferent for a gay than it is for a normal person? dead is dead. what motivates the abuser or killer is irrelevant except to try to segrigate teh masses even more.Just like affirmative action. equal does not mean you are now better than someone else because you are black,female,gay or anything else. Whenever preferential treetment is granted one party the others are discriminated against.

“GO Back to Sleep”

Since: Aug 07

savannah ga

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#2094
Sep 8, 2007
 
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you cannot twist any crime into a hate crime. That's why investigators and police like to look at EVIDENCE. Not all violent crimes result in people being incarcerated. If that were the case, then domestic violence wouldn't be such a big deal. Hate crimes DO result in incarceration, and that is the point: to keep people motivated by murderous hate away from society. What angers some people is that hurting someone for being gay, black, Catholic, or whatever is a guaranteed ticket to prison once it is obvious that hate motivated the crime.
I have never heard of anyone getting away with just labeling something a hate crime as you say.
I hear what your saying and in perfect world or should I a text book situation yes your right,but your talking about cops and our kangaroo court justice system....they opperate unchecked they're free to crucify at will no facts needed.It's like the GESTOPPO or the secret police in natzi Germany.It just depends on what kind of witch hunt they are on at the time.Right now were having our war "TERROR" and the sham of the century "THE WAR ON DRUGS".....EVERY BODYS GOT TO HAVE WAR....AMERICANS LOVE WAR OR at least the idea of it.I prefer peace and love but that doesn't sell anymore or does it?.....

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