Of bedbugs, mites, and APIS MELLIFICA

Iqbal wrote:

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You are really dumb!!!

This from the monkey worshiper who thinks that the Earth used to be flat?

Seriously, how do they stick those dots on? With a nail gun? You act like you've been lobotomized.

Nuggin wrote:

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This from the monkey worshiper who thinks that the Earth used to be flat?
Seriously, how do they stick those dots on? With a nail gun? You act like you've been lobotomized.

The expression of prejudice and ignorance and knowledgeable discussion of the subject at hand are two different things. You display both your lack of knowledge and your abusive nature.

C Redd wrote:

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The expression of prejudice and ignorance and knowledgeable discussion of the subject at hand are two different things. You display both your lack of knowledge and your abusive nature.

I love the fact that you come down on me and not on him for his similar remarks. How terrifically unbiased of you.

Of course, I would expect nothing less given that you are here defending "magic" as an acceptable treatment for illness.

You have no foundation in reality. As such, I discount your criticisms out of hand.

C Redd wrote:

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The expression of prejudice and ignorance and knowledgeable discussion of the subject at hand are two different things. You display both your lack of knowledge and your abusive nature.

Knowledgable discussion eh?

That's what you think you and Iqbal are doing?

Stunning display of lack of self knowledge, go look in the mirror girly.

Nuggin wrote:

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This is why this conversation is useless.
You lack the basic education necessary to understand the answers to the questions you have.
If they had schools in your "country", they might teach you and the other untouchables some basics about science.
But alas, since the British left, you've reverted back to monkey worshiping flea ridden filthy mongrels.
So, I'll try and make this as simple as possible.
No matter how many cows you pray to, your magic water will never actually be anything other than a fantasy.

There is a saying in hindi, when translated into English means: " throwing stones in filth is not advisable - filth stains you".

I forgot the saying and threw a stone at you!

Good bye.

Iqbal wrote:

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There is a saying in hindi, when translated into English means: " throwing stones in filth is not advisable - filth stains you".

How can you possibly tell? From what we've seen, your entire country is filth from head to toe.

Nuggin wrote:

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How can you possibly tell? From what we've seen, your entire country is filth from head to toe.

You should Google the reports on the atheletes village for the 2010 Commonwealth Games.

Nuggin -- You aren't too bright, are you? You use a lot of bad language here. If you don't like homeopathy why are you even in this forum? Are you an MD? Do you work for MDs? You are really rude and very uninformed, and my guess is that you have never tried homeopathy at all.

I realize that you think you know it all, so I'm happy to burst your ego-inflated bubble.

Nobel Scientist Discovers Scientific Basis of Homeopathy

A NOBEL laureate who discovered the link between HIV and AIDS has suggested there could be a firm scientific foundation for homeopathy.

French virologist Luc Montagnier stunned his colleagues at a prestigious international conference when he presented a new method for detecting viral infections that bore close parallels to the basic tenets of homeopathy.

Although fellow Nobel prize winners -- who view homeopathy as quackery -- were left openly shaking their heads, Montagnier's comments were rapidly embraced by homeopaths eager for greater credibility.

Montagnier told the conference last week that solutions containing the DNA of pathogenic bacteria and viruses, including HIV, "could emit low frequency radio waves" that induced surrounding water molecules to become arranged into "nanostructures". These water molecules, he said, could also emit radio waves.

He suggested water could retain such properties even after the original solutions were massively diluted, to the point where the original DNA had effectively vanished. In this way, he suggested, water could retain the "memory" of substances with which it had been in contact -- and doctors could use the emissions to detect disease.

To a lay person this may sound tenuous. For a scientist it is highly provocative in its similarity to the principles said to underpin homeopathy.

Homeopathic medicines work on the principle that a toxic substance taken in minute amounts will cure the same symptoms that it would cause if it were taken in large amounts.

Scientists completely reject this, claiming there is no evidence to show that water can retain or transmit information and that homeopathic treatments have never been proven in full clinical trials.

Montagnier's claims come at a particularly sensitive time, with the British Medical Association last week calling for the National Health Service to stop spending pound stg. 4 million ($7.2m) a year on homeopathy.

The growing concern of doctors is linked to homeopathy's rising popularity. Users of homeopathy include the Queen and David Beckham.

Montagnier was awarded the Nobel prize in 2008 for research carried out in the 1980s that confirmed the link between HIV and AIDS. The breakthrough opened the way to new treatments that have extended the lives of millions of people.

Last week, he was speaking at the Lindau Nobel laureate meeting in Germany where 60 Nobel prize winners had gathered, along with 700 other scientists, to discuss the latest breakthroughs in medicine, chemistry and physics.

Cristal Sumner, of the British Homeopathic Association, said Montagnier's work gave homeopathy "a true scientific ethos".

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-s...

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/...

Luc Montagnier
This all brings me to the contemporary example that triggered this article – the story of Luc Montagnier. He was the 2008 Nobel Prize in Medicine along with Harald zur Hausen and Francoise Barre-Sinoussi – Hausen for his discover of the human papilloma virus, and the other two jointly for their discovery of HIV. Montagnier’s work on HIV is impressive and he deserved the Nobel Prize for his work. But his later work makes me wonder if he is more of a gifted and lucky technician than a true scientific thinker.
Recently Montagnier has published a paper in which he claims that diluting the DNA of pathogenic (and only pathogenic) bacteria results in the creation of nanostructures in the solvent that retain the radiowave emitted by DNA. These radiowave memories can then result in the reconstitution of the originating bacteria or virus.
Here is the abstract from his paper, Electromagnetic signals are produced by aqueous nanostructures derived from bacterial DNA sequences:
A novel property of DNA is described: the capacity of some bacterial DNA sequences to induce electromagnetic waves at high aqueous dilutions. It appears to be a resonance phenomenon triggered by the ambient electromagnetic background of very low frequency waves. The genomic DNA of most pathogenic bacteria contains sequences which are able to generate such signals. This opens the way to the development of highly sensitive detection system for chronic bacterial infections in human and animal diseases.
Wow – DNA producing electromagnetic waves, which can be remembered by water interacting with background EM noise. He then adds the rather incredible notion that these signals can result in the formation of the bacteria or virus from which the DNA derives (by interacting with other cells). Montagnier is not making one incredible leap here, he is making several all at once. That is usually a sign that a researcher is getting erroneous results, and rather than consider a flaw in their experiment protocol they start jumping through logical hoops in order to explain their impossible results.
This article sums up the pathological science well:
The reasoning Montagnier used to reach his conclusions seemed identical to that used by those who study homeopathy. Obvious and simple explanations have to be skipped in order to pursue obscure ones, things that haven’t been demonstrated have to be assumed, and findings that have been subjected to repeated testing have to be ignored. It’s hard to describe the work as anything other than crackpot.
That’s right – this is homeopathic nonsense applied to DNA.
Le Canard Noir of Quackometer fame also points out that Montagnier assumes that only pathogenic (to humans) bacteria possess this property. But there is no theoretical reason that only some bacteria would have such a property, and that they would somehow know if they were pathogenic or not to humans. I would add, that this can only make sense if this property is what determined that the bacteria were pathogenic in the first place. But this flies in the face of a great deal of research which tells us why some bacteria are pathogenic and others are not – it has to do with their specific biological properties. I would further add that some bacteria are friendly at some times, but then can turn pathogenic at others.

Continued:

Conclusion
Scientific achievement, while admirable, is no guarantee that one’s later work will be valid. This phenomenon is not limited to Nobel Prize winners – many scientists, after a mainstream and successful career in science, have turned to crankery in their later years. History has not been kind to such scientists.
The lessons here are many. The first is never to trust the authority of a single individual. A broad consensus of opinion should be compelling, and it is progressively less likely that may scientists (especially if they are coming from different perspectives) would all make the same mistakes. But individuals are quirky.
Past performance is also no guarantee. There has been speculation, in fact, as to why it is observed that older scientists sometimes jump off the deep end. Are they losing some of their faculties? Are they afraid that their legacy is inadequate and they are looking to punctuate their career with a dramatic discovery? Or perhaps they feel they have paid their dues with mainstream science and now wish to pursue their true passion? Then there are those who have been so successful that perhaps they feel they can turn their scientific eye to any question, even one far outside their specialty, and outperform the experts in that field.
From one perspective it is always a bit sad to see a respected scientist squander their legacy by delving into nonsense. In many cases they become more infamous for their crankery than famous for their legitimate contributions. But on the other hand, such episodes are constant reminders of the human condition and the need for a little humility (even among the best of us) in light of the awesome complexity of the universe we hope to understand.

Nuggin, you are a twit. What pharmaceutical hired you to nip in the bud this discussion on homeopathy anyway? Why don't you just disappear you idiotical puppet tool.

Izzica wrote:

Nuggin, you are a twit. What pharmaceutical hired you to nip in the bud this discussion on homeopathy anyway? Why don't you just disappear you idiotical puppet tool.

First of all, this thread has been dead for how long? The post before yours is from March.

Second, no I don't work for a pharma company. Not all educated people work for pharma companies.

Third, have you even considered how retarded you sound thinking that people who disagree with your "magic" are some how working for a business? Seriously? You think a company would pay someone to post on a thread that being read by what? 3 people? maybe 5, tops. Please.

Fourth, what SPECIFICALLY did I post that you disagree with? Do you have a specific objection? Can you back it up scientifically? Do you even KNOW the principles involved in homeopathy?

Nuggin, your language really does show your education. Do you know where your country is headed? And, do you know which country is being talked about as the next economic super-power? I guess you are still living in the 18th century.
Here's an interesting exercise for you:

Find out the number of engineers and doctors produced per year in the country you abused and then compare that number to your country's. No wonder your president came out asking for jobs

And if your racist self allows you, try to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India...

Just a piece of advice: keep your comments focused on the topic of discussion. You see, that will save us time.

Vishal wrote:

Nuggin, your language really does show your education. Do you know where your country is headed? And, do you know which country is being talked about as the next economic super-power? I guess you are still living in the 18th century.
Here's an interesting exercise for you:
Find out the number of engineers and doctors produced per year in the country you abused and then compare that number to your country's. No wonder your president came out asking for jobs
And if your racist self allows you, try to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India...
Just a piece of advice: keep your comments focused on the topic of discussion. You see, that will save us time.

I'll go slow, see if you can follow along.

There are A LOT of people in India. There are a lot of highly educated engineers and medical professionals. Fantastic.

However there are a lot more uneducated non-engineers, non-medical professionals. And those people are clinging to "magic" as if it were really something.

America is not immune to this either. Hell, Americans are BUYING the homeopathy crap you guys are claiming is real medicine.

The problem SPECIFICALLY is that posters like Iqal are referencing "Indian studies" which are unpublished, unreproducable, and make claims which violate the laws of basic chemistry and biology.

And when I call him on it, his excuse is that "we know better in India".

Well, apparently not.

It's water.

A water molecule can not hold "information" from a larger molecule. It can not transfer that "information" from one molecule to another.

The claimed mechanisms and the observable methodology of homeopathy render it an impossibility.

To claim otherwise is to be foolish.

You really don't get it do you. Did I mention homeopathy anywhere in my post? I don't care about your stand against homeopathy. In fact, I respect your viewpoint.

My only objection was to your ill-informed tirade against an entire country and its people. A country which is considered the birthplace of science and technology.

I hope you understand now.

Vishal wrote:

You really don't get it do you. Did I mention homeopathy anywhere in my post? I don't care about your stand against homeopathy. In fact, I respect your viewpoint.
My only objection was to your ill-informed tirade against an entire country and its people. A country which is considered the birthplace of science and technology.
I hope you understand now.

Well, if you are the birthplace of science and technology, why is it considered lucky to have a cow shit in your kitchen?

Why do you have a resident population of lepers?

It's not enough to be the birthplace of something, you have to continue to use it.

India has some good things about it, but sanitation is not one of them.

When was the last time you visited India?
I guess you are still feeding your brain with garbage from your local media?

Now I see why everyone abandoned this post. Good bye.

Vishal wrote:

When was the last time you visited India?
I guess you are still feeding your brain with garbage from your local media?
Now I see why everyone abandoned this post. Good bye.

I notice you are posting from Ohio. Exactly what part of India is Ohio?

If India is so fantastic, why did you abandon it for what anyone would consider a "middle state" in all senses of the word.