Some try to limit our personal faith to a private world

Great letter

A church should not be used as a place to vote and prayer should not be in the state house. The legislator is there to conduct business, not worship. That's what Sundays in church are for. How about we just switch things around? We can use the state house for voting and the church for praying. That almost makes to much sense though.

You talk about "Some try to limit our personal faith to a private world" as not being fair or right - what about when your personal faith limits another's private world. Where and how do you draw a line between what people believe and what is right?

The problem is not with prayer, it is with the appearance of a government establishing a state religion. When the Government prays before sessions, it appears that they are supporting the establishment of religion. This is not in the best interests of a free society - though God knows the short bus crowd in the legislature need all the help they can get, be it from divine intervention or a simple course on economics.

Say What wrote:

You talk about "Some try to limit our personal faith to a private world" as not being fair or right - what about when your personal faith limits another's private world. Where and how do you draw a line between what people believe and what is right?

It is a one way street. I can tell you what to do but you can not tell me what to do. Don't you see I am always right and you are always wrong. There is no live and let live around here anymore!

"We are more than honored to welcome Carmel voters (while providing utilities and building maintenance) in order to provide a critical service to our community."

Not a bad trade off for being tax exempt.

Let's see. If I'm invited to give a talk at your church on a topic that we both agree on but then at the end of my talk I present an idea that I know is diametrically opposed to your beliefs. Will I be invited back again? Will future speakers be ask to limit their talks to agreed on topics? Probably. Churches do not encourage a free exchange of conflicting ideas. They are not like universities. Having a pastor give a sectarian prayer to open the legislature is like an atheist debunking the Bible in church. Atheists don't do that because it would be rude, religionists should be as polite.

Colaxais wrote:

The problem is not with prayer, it is with the appearance of a government establishing a state religion. When the Government prays before sessions, it appears that they are supporting the establishment of religion. This is not in the best interests of a free society - though God knows the short bus crowd in the legislature need all the help they can get, be it from divine intervention or a simple course on economics.

That's the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard. Just because a legislator prays or there is prayer in the opening of a session of Congress does not mean we are taking any steps towards state religion. This is just one more excuse to misuse the whole separation of church and state argument.

Secular wrote:

Let's see. If I'm invited to give a talk at your church on a topic that we both agree on but then at the end of my talk I present an idea that I know is diametrically opposed to your beliefs. Will I be invited back again? Will future speakers be ask to limit their talks to agreed on topics? Probably. Churches do not encourage a free exchange of conflicting ideas. They are not like universities. Having a pastor give a sectarian prayer to open the legislature is like an atheist debunking the Bible in church. Atheists don't do that because it would be rude, religionists should be as polite.

Why are atheists so threatened by prayer? It's not like anyone is asking you to believe in Jesus or forcing you to pray. It's just words and an expression of one's faith in someone other than self. Maybe other people should try it ... you know, believing in a higher power rather than making themselves little gods - because that is what you are doing when you reject God. You essentially tell the world, "I am god" and that you are not beholden to anyone but yourself.

This pastor and others like him just dont get it. Unless they can do whatever they want wherever they want and proclaim (or imply...just as bad) that all who disagree with them are going to hell, they won't be happy.

The sad thing for them is the need they have to be this way is a result of their subconscious doubts about their beliefs. They're insecure in the religion they try to force on the rest of us.

Ironic huh?

"Why are atheists so threatened by prayer? It's not like anyone is asking you to believe in Jesus or forcing you to pray. It's just words and an expression of one's faith in someone other than self. Maybe other people should try it ... you know, believing in a higher power rather than making themselves little gods - because that is what you are doing when you reject God. You essentially tell the world, "I am god" and that you are not beholden to anyone but yourself. "

--Actually, you ARE in effect asking us to believe in your faith, and that's the problem. As a Jew, if I were a legislator, and a pastor opened up the Session with a prayer 'in Jesus' name' I would bloody damn well be offended.

Faith is a deeply personal and individual thing; there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with faith, but mixing it with government is a bad idea; we've seen that in history over and over and over again.

I wish it were otherwise, but it's time to accept the fact that prayer useless if you believe in an omniscient God who has known everything that was going to happen since the beginning of time. If you pray for a sick relative, for example, then God has already known since the beginning of time whether that relative would get better or not and he can't "change his mind" without making what he knew at the beginning of time wrong, and conceding that he is not omniscient. The logic is indisputable.

Transparent wrote:

<quoted text>
You essentially tell the world, "I am god" and that you are not beholden to anyone but yourself.

Imagine that, personal responsibilty.

You know, other countries begin governing seesions with prayers. Like Iran.

You wanted your church to be used as a polling place. We do not want our government offices used as a churc.

I couldn't care less if legislators pray their a**es off before a legislative session starts. It's when they hit the podium, thus taking on their role as:

Public official;
Representing *everyone* in their district/county/state/whatever ;
Performing public business;
Being paid by public money;
Using public time purportedly to be doing public work,...

...and take up the time with their prayer that I damn well object.

Why do the ones who are most determined to pray on the podium (Bosma) see such a difference between that and praying in private? Is it something to do with the prayer itself - its meaning or effectiveness (alleged) or validity? It doesn't seem so. As far as I understand it, prayer is prayer is prayer, as long as it's sincere, and anybody's god is expected to respond the same in any case. Even the Christians' own texts urge them to pray in their own closet (whatever the exact words) and to be suspicious of those who flaunt their prayer in public.

So what's so important about having the prayer on the podium? It's more visible to everyone else. It's more of a show. It's more of a histrionic spectacle put on to solidify their constituency's opinion of the pray-er as pious and sharing the voters' faith. It's a political show. It has nothing to do with the sincerity of the prayer, and everything about base politics. Does it really make you happy, those who want to have your prayers on the podium?

I can has prayer rug in statehouse now?

Jason wrote:

I couldn't care less if legislators pray their a**es off before a legislative session starts. It's when they hit the podium, thus taking on their role as:
Public official;
Representing *everyone* in their district/county/state/whatever ;
Performing public business;
Being paid by public money;
Using public time purportedly to be doing public work,...
...and take up the time with their prayer that I damn well object.
Why do the ones who are most determined to pray on the podium (Bosma) see such a difference between that and praying in private? Is it something to do with the prayer itself - its meaning or effectiveness (alleged) or validity? It doesn't seem so. As far as I understand it, prayer is prayer is prayer, as long as it's sincere, and anybody's god is expected to respond the same in any case. Even the Christians' own texts urge them to pray in their own closet (whatever the exact words) and to be suspicious of those who flaunt their prayer in public.
So what's so important about having the prayer on the podium? It's more visible to everyone else. It's more of a show. It's more of a histrionic spectacle put on to solidify their constituency's opinion of the pray-er as pious and sharing the voters' faith. It's a political show. It has nothing to do with the sincerity of the prayer, and everything about base politics. Does it really make you happy, those who want to have your prayers on the podium?

I don't know Chet Berry, but he seems to agree with Brian Bosma that making a shameless public display of faith is what God desires of him (oh, and he thinks it makes him look really good to his constituents, too). Pathetic and anything but spiritual...

madmonkey wrote:

I can has prayer rug in statehouse now?

I think you can!:) Pray loudly and proudly!

My polling place was in a church's building too. For some reason they changed it from the school, right next door, where elections have been held for years. I saw it as the continued break down of our system. I was dismayed but not at all surprised.

I doubt very seriously that I could identify Chet as a follower of Christ unless he wears a label. Tell me Chet, do you have a real job too, or do you tap the collection plate for your paycheck?

News Flash Chet: Intolerant or narrow-minded convictions are predictably labeled as intolerant or narrow-minded because they are intolerant or narrow-minded. Perhaps you could spend some time worrying about your own shortcomings. Once you get your house in order we can discuss your desire to rearrange mine. Beam. Eye. Mote. Judge not. Any of this stuff ring a bell?

Legislative bodies across the land pray before every session, legal or not. Ours brags about it, loudly demanding their right to do so. Still they all pass the most shamefully corrupt laws imaginable.

If prayer works just what are they praying for?