Battle over religion in public square: Round 1

Mr Pulliam confuses the issue and sets up a false dichotomy. To my knowledge, the ACLU has never advocated "cleansing" the public square of religion. No court has ever made a ruling that would prevent a private citizen from praying in the Statehouse. However, in his capacity as a representative of the state government, the Speaker of the House should not make prayer part of the agenda, which amounts to government endorsment of a specific religion. Remember, enforcing the separation of Church and State is ultimately for the protection of religion.

John wrote:

Mr Pulliam confuses the issue and sets up a false dichotomy. To my knowledge, the ACLU has never advocated "cleansing" the public square of religion. No court has ever made a ruling that would prevent a private citizen from praying in the Statehouse. However, in his capacity as a representative of the state government, the Speaker of the House should not make prayer part of the agenda, which amounts to government endorsment of a specific religion. Remember, enforcing the separation of Church and State is ultimately for the protection of religion.

What a bunch of nonsense. You need a lesson in history and the law. Congress has started each day with prayer from day one. Virtually every state legislature, including Indiana, has started its sessions with a prayer. They started off each day at the Constitutional Convention with a prayer. They quoted at length from scripture during the sessions. The first Congress that passed the First Amendment, including the Establishment Clause, started its day with a prayer.

The notion that a legislature starting its day with a prayer is violating the Establishment Clause is a bunch of malarky. The history and law is not on your side. And let's not even get into your twisting of the word "establishment" to have a different meaning that its plain meaning and the meaning intended by the Founders.

This appears to me to be an attempt to rewrite the text of the "establishment clause" through the glass of the "due process" clause. Over the past several decades, this same glass has been used to re-examine many facets of our society and government, always with good intent, less often with good effect.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked at Mr. Pulliam's flagrant misstatements and generalities, but I am. I see no evidence that the ACLU has ever made any attempts to "make the public square barren with respect to religious faith." I would argue the contrary - the ACLU protects each religion's right to express itself in its own way. The argument at hand is not prayer in the statehouse – it is sectarian prayer in public.

I would also take issue with Pulliam’s statement that “Clearly, the authors of the Constitution would not object to prayer in the name of Jesus.” While most were Christian and this would have been their method of prayer, America was founded on religious tolerance, not Christian doctrine. A few Google searches will net numerous quotes from the Founding Fathers about upholding religious neutrality and tolerance. George Washington even thanked the Jewish community for reminding him that plurality was more important than unanimity.

The Constitution is not wrong. It upholds the rights of everyone, especially those in the minority. We don’t need an amendment to outlaw public prayer. What we need is a good old fashioned dose of common sense, decency, and respect for others.

Thank God there is still someone sensible on board the Star Editorial Board. Thank you. It is brave for you to put your ideas out there for the Atheists to rip and tear. Why are the Atheists so bent on removing every aspect of Christianity from the public square? Why are they so vehemenent against something they say does not exist?

Boomer wrote:

Thank God there is still someone sensible on board the Star Editorial Board. Thank you. It is brave for you to put your ideas out there for the Atheists to rip and tear. Why are the Atheists so bent on removing every aspect of Christianity from the public square? Why are they so vehemenent against something they say does not exist?

Rsbbi Speigel might be surprised to hear himself called an atheist!

The way America has prayed for the past 200+ years, must continue unchanged. It's what made this country great and, if the ACLU'S agenda to remove it from public life is defeated, will continue to keep it great

John wrote:

<quoted text>
Rsbbi Speigel might be surprised to hear himself called an atheist!

Been called a lot of things - first time for atheist!

In reply to R. Pulliam’s battle Over Religion in the Public Square: Round 1. In an effort to secure a consensus after five weeks of futile deliberation during the Continental Congress’ Constitutional Convention, 1787, Benjamin Franklin motioned to bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations. Up until that time, none of their deliberations were opened or closed with prayer. Franklin’s motion was soundly voted down!

The founding fathers clearly did not want prayer muddling in state affairs, even during those critical and dangerous times. What makes Pulliam and Bosma wiser and more intelligent than our countries esteemed founding fathers?

So, when is the ACLU going to sue the airport for installing foot baths?

Saying a prayer in the statehouse has nothing to do with the first amendment, nor does erecting religious monuments in the square. The Indiana legislature is not trying to pass a law stating that all citizens must pray to the invisible man Hey~zoos. And that my friends, is what the establishment clause in the 1st amendment is all about.

Until Indiana state legislature establishes a state religion, the ACLU should stop the frivolous lawsuits & wasting taxpayer dollars defending against this petty secular whining.

Politicians who demand their time to pray when being paid by my tax dollars do not love prayer for its own sake, but they love it because it gives them an opportunity of making themselves noticed.
A truly sincere prayer is like that described in Matthew 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”(New American Standard Bible ©1995)
Enough said.

June Holt wrote:

Politicians who demand their time to pray when being paid by my tax dollars do not love prayer for its own sake, but they love it because it gives them an opportunity of making themselves noticed.
A truly sincere prayer is like that described in Matthew 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”(New American Standard Bible ©1995)
Enough said.

Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the mist of them." Mt 18:20 (New American Bible).

Politicians who request prayer, are acting on Christ Word, that He will be in their mist if they ask Him to be. However, with the spirit of the anti-christ, now pervading society, they may need to organize a private prayer service of Christian politicians, to meet before the public meeting, and ask Jesus' presents at the meeting. This private meeting could be formalized and as the politicians enter the meeting, as a group, after their private prayer meeting, they would be not only a greater witness to Jesus, then praying before the public assembly, but they will also insure Jesus' blessing on the meeting.

Christians must adapt to the new society and find new ways to keep Jesus in the public forum.

June Holt wrote:

Politicians who demand their time to pray when being paid by my tax dollars do not love prayer for its own sake, but they love it because it gives them an opportunity of making themselves noticed.
A truly sincere prayer is like that described in Matthew 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”(New American Standard Bible ©1995)
Enough said.

Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the mist of them." Mt 18:20 (New American Bible).

Politicians who request prayer, are acting on Christ Word, that He will be in their mist if they ask Him to be. However, with the spirit of the anti-christ, now pervading society, they may need to organize a private prayer service of Christian politicians, to meet before the public meeting, and ask Jesus' presents at the meeting. This private meeting could be formalized and as the politicians enter the meeting, as a group, after their private prayer meeting, they would be not only a greater witness to Jesus, then praying before the public assembly, but they will also insure Jesus' blessing on the meeting.

Christians must adapt to the new society and find new ways to keep their Jesus in the public forum.

FYI, Mr. Pulliam, but the foundations of representative democracy were not monarchist Hebrews or Imperialist Christians. They were Pagan Greeks and Romans. After them, Christians killed democracy for a thousand years.

God bless you, Mr. Pulliam! You have spoken the truth, and the truth has made quite a few people angry! That doesn't make your words any less truthful. Keep up the good work!

John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

John Adams:
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Quincy Adams:
“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence:
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”–Constitutional Convention of 1787

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said,“I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

Patrick Henry:

"This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”[May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Thomas Jefferson:

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”(excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)[Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings,(New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]