Church hosts fair trade boutique

Henry wrote:

One more thing about Fair Trade. Retailers in this country are always anxious to tell you how much people in producing countries are getting for their products and how much better they're paid than in other models.
If you want a cheap jolly, ask your local Fair Trade retailer what their markup is on these products when they sell them to you, and watch them squirm around and evade the question :)

By the way, my original point was that when it comes to actual numbers, transparency seems to fade away rather quickly with the Fair Traders, at least at the consumer end of the business. Perhaps the church will be different. So again, what is the end markup from retailer to end user, and how does it compare with the markup from producer to middleman? And how does this compare with traditional trade models? Is some component of Fair Trade retailers' work really given back, or are they getting the same markup values as everyone else?

Please, no feel-good answers. I've heard that stuff too many times to count. Actual facts would be appreciated.

Henry wrote:

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By the way, my original point was that when it comes to actual numbers, transparency seems to fade away rather quickly with the Fair Traders, at least at the consumer end of the business. Perhaps the church will be different. So again, what is the end markup from retailer to end user, and how does it compare with the markup from producer to middleman? And how does this compare with traditional trade models? Is some component of Fair Trade retailers' work really given back, or are they getting the same markup values as everyone else?
Please, no feel-good answers. I've heard that stuff too many times to count. Actual facts would be appreciated.

Ask a car salesman, jeweler, furniture store owner or grocer what their costs are and they're gonna squirm out of the answer or lie. That's business. If a customer knows the margins they're better able to negotiate a price. If you think an item costs too much ask for a lower price or don't buy it. Expecting a company to be transparent of their margins is lunacy.

lost soul wrote:

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Ask a car salesman, jeweler, furniture store owner or grocer what their costs are and they're gonna squirm out of the answer or lie. That's business. If a customer knows the margins they're better able to negotiate a price. If you think an item costs too much ask for a lower price or don't buy it. Expecting a company to be transparent of their margins is lunacy.

Of course you're right. But this isn't a car dealership, jewelry store or grocery. It's not a company either. It's a church, insinuating to the public that they're operating these businesses as non-profits. This is a big selling point for them. I'd like them to prove their claims. More importantly, I want their supposed transparency to extend to explaining to me in detail where my money is going when I buy their products. Is that so much to ask?

Note that they became quite silent the moment the questions got tough. I hope they're just doing research to give us some answers.

Wow! What a strange thing that some people seem so bitter about something that seems so beautiful.
Trade As One and Vintage Faith Church are putting energy and time into making a difference for good in the world, and yet some of you are condemning and questioning their motives. As Jesus said "let you who is without sin cast the first stone" - I hope those criticizing these wonderful efforts that they are making can say they are also striving to make a difference in the world as well and not just typing critical and harsh comments from their laptops at home.
Thank you Vintage Faith Church and The Abbey and Trade As One for what you are doing and may God bless these wonderful efforts.

its amazing how henry seems to know everyone's motives at vf, the abbey, and the fair trade botique. especially since he's obviously done his homework instead of writing continuous productive threads on this webpage. you're on to something buddy. go henry!

"i am personally excited that a this company exists and that a church is addressing our spending habits."

Why should a "church" be concerned with our spending habits? I thought the bibles are suppose to excite you.

Thank you Trade As One wrote:

Wow! What a strange thing that some people seem so bitter about something that seems so beautiful.
Trade As One and Vintage Faith Church are putting energy and time into making a difference for good in the world, and yet some of you are condemning and questioning their motives. As Jesus said "let you who is without sin cast the first stone" - I hope those criticizing these wonderful efforts that they are making can say they are also striving to make a difference in the world as well and not just typing critical and harsh comments from their laptops at home.
Thank you Vintage Faith Church and The Abbey and Trade As One for what you are doing and may God bless these wonderful efforts.

And may the IRS make you pay your fair share of taxes or throw all you beautiful people in prison.

for henry:
http://tradeasone.com/faq/

rocky wrote:

for henry:
http://tradeasone.com/faq/

Thanks for that. I missed it in my first glance at their site. It's helpful, although still somewhat vague. The real questions are what they consider a "fair wage" for producers and how this compares to less fair wages received by their counterparts outside the Fair Trade system, as well as the split in margins through the delivery chain. I didn't go back to the Fair Trade site to determine if it has more information on this. Trade As One does seem to essentially acknowledge that their business metrics closely parallel those of traditional models.

It's not "bitter" to ask for fiscal probity from organizations claiming to spend my money to do good for others. When I'm being told that my money is going to a "good cause", it's reasonable to ask exactly how much is getting to the root and how it's getting there. Many of the products on the site are readily available at local retailers like New Leaf, who carry large overheads and sell them at similar prices, which begs the question, how are the proceeds being spent by Trade As One and Vintage Faith? And how does it especially benefit our community to buy these products from a church and an online retailer instead of businesses such as New Leaf that have considerably more invested here?

No, I don't work at New Leaf or any other business in town.

My original point was that there is some question as to the appropriateness of a church engaging in so much commercial activity. We've seen so much of this from so many churches over the years, and it almost always seems to end badly. Whether it's Falwell, Swaggart and Bakker with their fundamentalist mega-churches or the new wave of Eco-churches saving the planet, religious organizations' aggressive pursuit of money is unseemly at best and dangerous folly at worst. This intimate involvement of the clergy in money-making enterprises is unsettling and should give one pause for thought.

I hope it's different this time.

Roberta wrote:

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I personally know that the Abbey does pay sales tax, property taxes, business license and have health inspections.
Why is it when churches do good things there is always so much negativitiy?!

Because the church is vilified within liberal secular society! The church has rules concerning morality, behavior and shunning perverted behavior as set forth by the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. Whereas, the secular liberals want guilt free activity and no rules specific to morality. They don't want the moral church telling them what is acceptable behavior. Although it appears as with most dictatorial socialists, the only rules they choose to be inforced are those set by the socialist political spectrum. Liberal Socialists only approve of State mandated behavior when set forth by Liberal Socialists! Hence, the Leftist Indoctrination that has infested the current education system! The church is bad, government leftist socialism is good!

Henry wrote:

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Of course you're right. But this isn't a car dealership, jewelry store or grocery. It's not a company either. It's a church, insinuating to the public that they're operating these businesses as non-profits. This is a big selling point for them. I'd like them to prove their claims. More importantly, I want their supposed transparency to extend to explaining to me in detail where my money is going when I buy their products. Is that so much to ask?
Note that they became quite silent the moment the questions got tough. I hope they're just doing research to give us some answers.

Apparently you, like many other secular liberals have no concept of the church, and its non profit status as applicable to the IRS codes. Churches are allowed to sell items for a profit as the money is used to maintain the church, its property and the many service programs it provides to those less fortunate. Read the tax code relative to religious non-profits before you make outlandish and ignorant statements!

Hey Henry, I'm the founder of Trade as One. This subject has obviously generated a lot of passion. These sorts of online forums are sometimes not great at generating constructive dialog though so if you'd like to meet up in Santa Cruz to chat some time, drop me a note at info@tradeasone.com. Would love to meet you and listen to your perspective some more.

Peace

Nathan

Sam wrote:

"i am personally excited that a this company exists and that a church is addressing our spending habits."
Why should a "church" be concerned with our spending habits? I thought the bibles are suppose to excite you.

great, thoughtful question... jesus spoke a lot about money during his ministry (more than almost any other subject) and indicates that how we spend our money is directly connected to what we value/where our heart is. as people who are trying to live like Jesus and model his teachings (and though we will never, ever be perfect at that, we are trying) we want encourage people (and continue to challenge ourselves) to consider how and why we spend money (or dont spend money) in light of what Jesus valued.

I want to commend how Christians and people from the church are responding here with kindness, wanting to talk and with intelligent responses. Thank you!!!

Henry,

I am personally involved with the organizing of the boutique at Vintage Faith and can honestly answer your questions regarding for-profit concerns. In absolutely no way is Vintage Faith Church receiving any of the revenue earned from the boutique. VFC is simply creating a space and partnership for Trade As One to fulfill their purpose of helping people in need around the world, which is a shared purpose of Vintage Faith. Again, VFC receives nothing from Trade As One for hosting a boutique.

I'm glad that you are a thinking citizen and have questions that are relevant. I'm also glad that you're interested in Fair Trade whether it's at Peet's or Lulu's or SCRC, or where ever. If you have concerns as to Trade As One's pricings please check out their website. tradeasone.com

i noticed the website was already posted by someone else. i apologize for the redundancy

Hi there Henry and others who have concerns about Vintage Faith, the Abbey, and the upcoming Trade As One event we are hosting,

Thanks for your thoughts and questions, as we as a church always want to be open to peoples' concerns and even critique of our mission. We long for healthy and constructive conversation with the community, and ultimately want to demonstrate the love of Jesus in innovative and winsome ways. In regard to the Abbey and sales tax, the Abbey pays sales tax on all items sold even though it is a creative ministry expression of the church and recognized by both the IRS and the City of Santa Cruz as a ministry. When the Abbey is able to generate enough income to cover its costs, moneys that come in will be sent out to further the ministry efforts of Vintage Faith to some of the poorest people in our world. One example is a ministry we currently partner with located in Lira, Uganda which provides fresh water springs to villages where people have died due to unsanitary drinking water. For more info, please visit www.pathministries.net - the directors are Bob and Carol Higgins. There are also taxes paid on items sold at the Trade As One Boutique. You can get more information from Nathan George who is the founder of that ministry. info@tradeasone.com

Vintage Faith and The Abbey work with the City to ensure that all permits and codes are being followed, including inspections from health, fire, building, planning, etc. as we long to ensure the safety and well being of every visitor, and hope they sense God's love permeating the entire space.

The Abbey also provides a venue for artists and musicians in Santa Cruz to showcase their talent, as we long for artists to be supported, validated, and given a venue to express creativity. The Church was once known in our world as a center for art, creativity, and beauty, and we long to be part of the movement that is re-embracing the arts and a theology of beauty as we believe every person is made in the image of the Ultimate Artist and Creator.

Though made up of broken people, we as the church hope more than anything else to be agents of love and healing in our world and the Abbey and Trade as One are expressions of that desire. I hope you have a chance to come by the Boutique this Sunday and read stories of women who have come out of the sex trade because they were given a job through organizations like Trade As One.

Please feel free to address any further questions to me at josh@vintagechurch.org

Peace,

Josh

Ben wrote:

Henry,
I am personally involved with the organizing of the boutique at Vintage Faith and can honestly answer your questions regarding for-profit concerns. In absolutely no way is Vintage Faith Church receiving any of the revenue earned from the boutique. VFC is simply creating a space and partnership for Trade As One to fulfill their purpose of helping people in need around the world, which is a shared purpose of Vintage Faith. Again, VFC receives nothing from Trade As One for hosting a boutique.
I'm glad that you are a thinking citizen and have questions that are relevant. I'm also glad that you're interested in Fair Trade whether it's at Peet's or Lulu's or SCRC, or where ever. If you have concerns as to Trade As One's pricings please check out their website. tradeasone.com

Thanks for this straightforward answer. I'm glad to hear that no revenues are going to VF from this event. Surprised too. As for Trade As One and VF, I want to be clear that I do not share the malicious sentiments of some people here. I'm not questioning the legality of your operations, nor whether you're operating in compliance with tax codes and such. I take that as a given.

To those folks interested in engaging me in person, I'm not really anxious to do so, although the offer is appreciated. I'm satisfied with expressing my reservations and allowing you to answer them in this forum, and more importantly, with the clients who actually come to purchase from you.

I am still very uncomfortable with the concept of conducting commerce in the context of a religious organization, and while this boutique sounds less commercial in nature than does the coffeehouse, I will likely still not participate. Meeting with you in person will not change that. However, in light of the information you've provided and my subsequent research, I think the tone of some of my earlier comments was unduly harsh, and I'll retract that now. I still have reservations about the details of the business model, but I'll leave it to your actual customers to educate themselves and consider the impact they're having when they spend money with you.

I wish all of you well in your venture.

Incidentally, to the poster who called me a secular liberal, I haven't willingly missed church in thirty years. And I suspect that VF is considerably more liberal than the church to which I belong. Thanks anyway.