Front Line Troop Morale Varies, Study Says

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

So, you believe that I don't have a clue about basic training. I went through infantry basic training at Fort Dix, NJ. Basic training is a program that every enlisted man and woman have to go through.
But, thank you for confirming that you never served in the military nor in a combat zone. But, I do know the drill sergeants temperment very well as I still remember all of my drill sergeants. And later on in my military career I have seen a few drill sergeants relieved from duty and busted down in rank for commiting inappropriate behavior.
Cheers Bob

Well I'm going to respond even if you choose to cop out.

Suffice to say, your experience with your drill sergeant reinforces my argument. As for the reasonableness in your platoon, I see it as an abnomally. Not the norm in today's military.

The incident I witnessed occurred at Benning. I will take the story one step further. The individual complained both to the adjutant general's office and the batallion C.O. and was stonewalled by both.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why women are ten times more likely to be raped in the military. And when they complain, they're treated like criminals themselves.

That pretty much puts a lid on your rebuttal. You can go on and on with your specious denials, but the evidence for overly-aggressive behaviour cannot be dismissed merely because it makes you unhappy to hear it.

As to what I might do in a combat situation, I have something called a moral spine. There are certain things I won't do, even if a loaded gun is pointed at my head. And I have had that experience.

"cheers"

First off I don't COP out on anything. It seems that you disregarded on the cases where NCOs and Enlisted mambers were held accountable and busted down in rank along with being thrown out of the militry service I provided in my orther posts.

I believe that I have been upfront with my military service and experiences. I always get suspiscious when an individual talks in vague language, as it seems all too often that they have something to hide.

So, if you have served in the military, please tell me about your background. I won't attack you as I don't attack veterans and their service in the military.

I believe that some of the current murders that have taken place at Fort Bragg and Camp Lejune actually support your opinions here.

But, you don't have all the information that supports what you're claiming here. And you seem to be lumping everything all together.

As for sexual assault on military women, I may know more about that than you. I have treated males and females with sexual trauma. In my first job with dept of VA, we had about 10-11 male veterans who were sexually assaulted in Vietnam. And there were 265 reported cases of sexual assault on women during Desert Shield/Storm.

But, than we have many mores cases of sexual assault taking place here in the US by civilian personal. It happens more often on college campuses, yet it gets covered up as the colleges don't want to see their student enrollments going down in the toilet.

Cheers

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

As for sexual assault on military women, I may know more about that than you. I have treated males and females with sexual trauma. In my first job with dept of VA, we had about 10-11 male veterans who were sexually assaulted in Vietnam. And there were 265 reported cases of sexual assault on women during Desert Shield/Storm.
Cheers

Correstion: that should have been "365" cases of sexual assault during Desert Shiel/Storm.

And all the military training and combat exposure doesn't contribute to that kind of behavior. That behavior was already within the guilty individuals before they came into the military service.

Cheers

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

First off I don't COP out on anything.

I believe that some of the current murders that have taken place at Fort Bragg and Camp Lejune actually support your opinions here.

But, than we have many mores cases of sexual assault taking place here in the US by civilian personal. It happens more often on college campuses, yet it gets covered up...
Cheers

So you decided to come back.

Just because the Army occasionally takes punitive action against a handful of offenders doesn't mean such vigilance is routine throughout the system. How many soldiers went to prison over My Lai?

You won't quite admit it, but your accounts continue to support my belief that the mental environment is psychotic and contributes to abberational behaviur.

Here's some additional food for thought:

A Washington Post article published in March 2006 stated that in 2005, military commanders took punitive action against 274 offenders, out of 1,474 alleged assailants, and 104 of these punitive actions were merely administrative sanctions or discharges. Only 79 were court-martialed, and 91 alleged assailants received non-judicial penalties.

http://www.now.org/issues/military/082906sexu...

And then there is the long history of U.S. soldiers raping civilian women wherever they've been stationed around the world. Take the ugly history of U.S. GIs in Okinawa. In Kin Town alone, where 21,000 Marines are stationed: A 12-year-old schoolgirl was abducted and raped by three U.S. soldiers in September 1995. Four months earlier, a 24-year-old woman was beaten to death with a hammer by a U.S. soldier. In 1993, a soldier raped an Okinawan woman, then escaped while in the custody of U.S. military police. In 1985, a 40-year-old woman was abducted and raped by two soldiers. In 1975, two junior high school students going for a swim at the beach were stoned until they lost consciousness and were then raped by a Marine. The year before, a 17-year-old woman was gang-raped by U.S. soldiers. And during the Vietnam War, 17 women were murdered by military personnel who were on R&R leave in Okinawa.

http://revcom.us/a/firstvol/886/rape.htm

An eyewitness female detainee at Abu Ghraib, who identified herself as ‘Noor’, told Al-Jazeera that ‘U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison raped women and, in many occasions, forced them to strip naked in public’. She admitted seeing ‘many female detainees got pregnant’. Iraqi lawyer Iman Khamas, of International Occupation Watch Centre, said; "One former detainee had recounted the alleged rape of her cell mate in Abu Ghraib." "[The detainee] had been raped 17 times in one day", said Khamas.

The U.S. Army report on Iraqi prisoners abuse by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba (the Taguba Report) confirmed these accounts, including ‘Noor's’ account and said that U.S. guards sexually abused female detainees at Abu Ghraib. The report found "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" constituting "systematic and illegal abuse of [Iraqi] detainees" at Abu Ghraib.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HAS505A.htm...

"Cheers"

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

<quoted text>
Correstion: that should have been "365" cases of sexual assault during Desert Shiel/Storm.
And all the military training and combat exposure doesn't contribute to that kind of behavior. That behavior was already within the guilty individuals before they came into the military service.
Cheers

I disagree. Yes, some individuals come into the service with psychopathic tendencies. But I've seen the system turn young men from normal individuals into thugs within hours.

When you have psychotic brutes in charge who through fear and intimidation decide what is normal and what isn't, it creates a fertile ground for reshaping the values of impressionable young men.

If nothing else, many succumb to the influence just out of survival instinct. Anyone perceived to bring heat down on the platoon becomes a target for vicious reprisal, even if the offense is trivial or non-existant. Because the harassment is just that bad.

I'll further emphasize that besides using such methods to instill rigid discipline, it also creates a mindset willing to lash out in a violent, mindless sort of fashion.

As I perceive it, the root of the problem is a culture which systematically appoints people of bad character to positions of authority in the first place. It cannot be honestly said that the Army is unaware of the likelihood of what will statistically follow given the conditions they create. When evil becomes the norm, you produce people who embrace it.

Although Army leadership would have you believe otherwise.

"Cheers"

Well, once again I see that you're not willing to show what your military background was or if you were in the military. I find that interesting as I haven't met a veteran who wasn't willing to admit that they served in our armed forces and have shared some of their experiences.

I'm not attacking you here Bob. I do understand your concerns and frustrations that many people are experiencing along with sharing throughout the US. Everywhere I go, I always try encouraging veterans and citizens in contacting their political representatives with their concerns. The main problem within society in this country, is that most people cannot be bothered in taking the the time for doing that. Until that actually takes place, we're not going to see any real changes.

I won't ask you if you have done this Bob. But, I will encourage you to do so, if you haven't already done that.

Everywhere I've worked in the US, I have conducted presentations for veteran organizations on VA services, SC for disabilities, military related physical & mental health, and how veterans can advocate for themselves.

I have met some veterans who have learned by writing to the representatives is a great tool for helping themselves, rather than allowing their anger to take over.

Cheers

What I do in coming and going from this forum is my business and my personal right. Just as you have the same entitlements Bob.

Since you haven't shared your background, I'll share mine, than maybe you'll be more open to share yours.

I was born in the Army in Berlin, Germany and came to this country at the age of 4 yrs. My father did 21 years in the Army. We were stationed in three places there in Germany and than at Fort Devins, MA, and Fort Belvoir, VA. I spent my teenage years in central New Hampshire.

All of my male teachers and male neighbors were veterans of WWII and the Korean war. After high school I went into the Army and came out after 23 years of service. I served in Vietnam (1st Aviation Brigade) and Desert Shield/Storm (3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment).

I served three tours in Germany with Signal Corps, 8th Infantry Division, and 1st Armored Division. I served in the 2nd Infantry Division in South Korea.

Stateside assignments had me at Fort Bliss, TX, Fort Bragg, NC, Fort Greely, AL, Fort Hood, TX, Fort Iwirn, CA, Fort Knox, KY, Fort Lewis, WA, and Fort Stewart, GA, along with Eglin AFB and Robins Warner AFB, GA.

I've been on M60A1, M60A3, and M1A1 HA battle tanks along with being a Squadron Operations NCO qand Training NCO for a regiment/brigade.

That experience has alowed me to interact with men & woem from every state of the US and about 70% of the cultural diversity along with many cultures from around the world.

My acedemic background is in sociology, psychology, and social service, which has enabled me in working in 3 Vet Centers, 5 CBOCs 1 clinic, and 1 hospital in the Dept of VA. That experience has allowed me to interact with 11 other hospitals, various other Vet centers and 6 regional boards along with a lot of SO's in order to help my clients.

All of that experience has helped me in understanding society in general and in being able to help help my clients currently. So, I don't see life as being B&W.

I read the newspaper and I watch the national news along with spending several thousand hours in reading professional information and researching empirical information inorder to continue improving myself and trying to provide better client services.

The one thing that I have learned at a young age is that the news media doesn't report any issue objectively. They sure as hell didn't report the Vietnam War in an objective manner. And they're not doing so today on the two war zones.

Cheers Bob

My respoNse to your Post #24:
You have to realize Bob, that the military is a sub-culture of society in the US and that it represents all of society within its membership.
I totally agree with you that there are many problems within its structure just as there are within US society today. But, you cannot compare what goes on in the combat zone with that in civilian society. Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not saying that everything that's happening there in Iraq is good.
As for what happened at My Lai, I and many other Vietnam veterans totally agree with you. Collin Powell who was the division S-3 at that time tried to cover it up.
He also lied to a Senate commitee about the chemical munitions in the bunkers that were blown up there in Iraq during Desert Storm. That was proven as one of the Army engineers had a video camera with him and he filmed the containers with their US chemical markings and that film was shown on TV in 2006 or 2007. Many of our vet organizations and veterans raised hell about that with our congressmen and senators.
Relating to you 1,474 cases Bob, the problem there is that neither of us know all the details involved. Every state has those same probelms. As I treated clients (M & F) for sexual asault, it boils my blood everytime I hear another case reported.
Are you aware of the survey that was taken from the male cadets a few years ago up at the Air Force Acedmy in Colorao Springs, CO? The majority of the male cadets stated that women have no place in the military. And most of those idiots have mothers, sisters, and girl friends/wives.
Again, have you contacted your political representatives and urged your friends in doing the same here? I do every chance I get.
Oh Yes! I remember all too well the event of the twelve year old girl being raped by the three Marines in Okinawa. I wrote to the Marine Corps Combatant and the Marine Corps Command Sergeant Major. I also wrote the President and my congressmen and senators. And if I remenber correctly, the American Legion, DAV, and VFW along with other veterans organizations raised a stink about that with those in Washington, DC.
For your own information Bob, it was ust announced that a female soldier has gone missing from Fort Bliss here in El Paso. That now brings Camp Lejune, Fort Bragg and Fort Bliss up un the national news coverage.
So, I have kocked out some more letters to Monday's outgoing mail delivery.
Cheers

My response to your Post #25:

Ah, you sat back and took a breath, than wrote. Good summary of thoughts Bob. I'm smiling with you here Bob. I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you Bob.

Remember that the military is a sub-culture of US society in general. Take that and realize that any problems we have currently in US society, we also have in the military. That also relates to the leadership and the legal system within the military.

In reality of sociologial and psychological behavior, anyone can be perdisposed in going the wrong way or the good way. It's their choice in what direction they take. No one has ever stated that choices in life are easy. And I refer to your previous statement about your own moral convictions Bob.

Our own history in this country supports that in the way we dealt with the slavery of African Americans and the Native Americans along with the incarceration of US German, Italtian, and Japanese citizens during WWII.

Look at how many people just jumped onto the band wagon during the protesting of the Vietnam War. I read accounts from many of those people who later admitted that they really didn't know the whole story and since than have regretted their behavior.

There's a lot that needs to be changed here in the US and in the military, but until we citizens and veterans get proactively involved, nothing is going to change.

Just as I have to be very accurate in assessing and or diagnosing an individual in healthcare, I also do the same for our troops there in the two war zones. I refuse to judge any man or woman in the military without all the facts in place first.

Remember that during Vietnam and again with these two war zones, that the Washington, DC idiots are coaching and comamnding from their livingrooms. We have very few veterans there in the Congress and Senate today. There was one senator or congressman who recently returned from serving in Iraq. That man is a real leader in my eyes.

Cheers Bob

My Opinion El Paso TX,

I did my share of letter-writing to Congress years ago and look back on it as a pointless exercise. Part of the problem is that too many of them are too deferential to the system, let alone having any grasp of the aberrational sub-culture.

It's my belief that part of any solution must be to have monitors at both the military academies and recruit training centers. These people would have the general task of keeping watch over the most vulnerable. Equally important, they would have the power to arbitrarily weed out anyone (and I mean anyone) perceived as lacking in good character.

In this manner, decent individuals would be protected and the malevolent sent packing.

This highlights my fundamental belief that you cannot change the character of an institution unless you change the character of the people within it.

bob53 wrote:

My Opinion El Paso TX,
1. I did my share of letter-writing to Congress years ago and look back on it as a pointless exercise. Part of the problem is that too many of them are too deferential to the system, let alone having any grasp of the aberrational sub-culture.
2. It's my belief that part of any solution must be to have monitors at both the military academies and recruit training centers. These people would have the general task of keeping watch over the most vulnerable. Equally important, they would have the power to arbitrarily weed out anyone (and I mean anyone) perceived as lacking in good character.
3. In this manner, decent individuals would be protected and the malevolent sent packing.
This highlights my fundamental belief that you cannot change the character of an institution unless you change the character of the people within it.

1. I agree. The only way this can work is when many more people get involved and raise some hell. If only a few people write, than the politicians just sit back and worry about minor BS issus.

2. From a book I read where the writer took 4-5 years in researching showed that every time we had a war, the standards for entry were dropped and than raised after the war's finish.

Clinton severely reduced the military and Bush didn't have the sense to increase it before going to war. That put pressure on the recruiters in getting more into the services without any standards, much less any reliable screenings.

But, I continue meeting very good soldiers here at Fort Bliss who have returned from the wars and continue redeploying back there.

One major problem that I've seen is that commander continue redepolying troops back to the wars after the military doctors have stated that the troops are not fit for combat due to mental health issues.

I had recieved orders for recruiting duty and I told the Army what they could do with that. I got sent back for my third tour of duty in Germany. Brooke my heart as I'm from Germany and my wife is from England.

If the service change how they treat recruiters and their careers, than maybe more good NCOs will be willing to do that job.

Oh well Bob, we can only hope that things will change for the better. But, don't hold your breath on that.

Cheers

It will take a motivated president with a sympathetic view to get anything done.

How can a president increase or decrease a military which is dependent on volunteers, not conscripts?

bob53 wrote:

1. It will take a motivated president with a sympathetic view to get anything done.
2. How can a president increase or decrease a military which is dependent on volunteers, not conscripts?

1. I don't believe that a president needs to have a sympathetic view Bob. But, I do agree that he/she need to be motivated.

2. By using their brain before entering into a war. And by allowing the military commanders in doing their jobs, rather than arm chair micro managing from Washington, DC.

Cheers Bob

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

<quoted text>
1. I don't believe that a president needs to have a sympathetic view Bob. But, I do agree that he/she need to be motivated.
2. By using their brain before entering into a war. And by allowing the military commanders in doing their jobs, rather than arm chair micro managing from Washington, DC.
Cheers Bob

While I'm sometimes critical of those at the top, in principal, you always heed the advice of professionals.

But we digress. It is the malicious subculture which is at issue. That problem is rooted at the very top where those in command perpetuate it.

The subculture must be replaced by one of stoic professionalism and the malevolent element weeded out.

oh boyie

bob53 wrote:

<quoted text>
While I'm sometimes critical of those at the top, in principal, you always heed the advice of professionals.
But we digress. It is the malicious subculture which is at issue. That problem is rooted at the very top where those in command perpetuate it.
The subculture must be replaced by one of stoic professionalism and the malevolent element weeded out.

Very Good points.

Cheers