Growing Up In a 12-Step Home

Headhunter 300M wrote:

Your counselor is down-right dangerous. You're right, she has no right to demand adherence to her religion.
I take it this is court mandated? I would speak to your attorney (even if it were a court appointed one) or any other officer you have to report to and insist your 1st Amendment rights be respected. There are alternatives to AA. This counselor wouldn't be in business if thye courts weren't forcing people on her. She's incompotent and not interested in learning anything new or even helpful.

The most interesting things about these classes is that the other people (such as chatting with you here) actually help you more than the counseling. You learn certain things about biology (alot of it is AA tainted info from the 20s)-but overall for me its the others who are in the same boat.

The counselor is 100% AA and hasnt drank since she was 18! Now-where that is admirable-I find it odd when she wants to talk about bars or social circles that I used to frequent much too often. She has no practical experience. I am not detracting from her power to stay sober since 18 though.

Basically its grin and bare it.

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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Part of the cultish nature. Of course you have to break some ties if you're really quitting, but I'll decide for myself who those need to be. No, they take it a step further because they only want you to associate with believers.

Yes-I have broken some ties-but those were completely based on using one substance or another like the neighbor you used to hang with. I will never forget at one of my first AA meetings where the guy told me I had to never hang with any of my old friends again. I was pissed at the very thought that this stranger would somehow fill in for friends I have had for 20+ years. Not happening.

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I've seen it happen...even when the significant other was being supportive. Before long their seen as a "normie".

LOL-have heard the term "normie" and now I know its an inside term. They always chuckle when they say it.

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Visualization is huge...how we percieve ourselves. AA teaches one to see themselves as worthless without the cult, and drills in the belief that one is always diseased.
Picture yourself not smelling like tobacco smoke (it stinks, you don't know how badly until it's out of your system), being able to breathe deeply, running a marathon, etc. and it will help motivate you to quit.
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I have recently began hitting the gymn again. I used to be very serious about it. Running very much makes you want to quit smoking. I notice after I am done working out how badly my clothes smell if I had smoked in them. So-I obviously smell like smokes more than I care to admit-and I used to hate the smell. Ironic.

Visualizing I think can help put you in a different place as well as meditating.

Kind of. The worst part (and the moment I got up and walked out) was when it came back around for him to talk, and mentioned it was under warranty and would be replaced!

LOL - oh yes-well it was under warranty but that is precisely the type of crap I dont need filling my brain at an AA meeting. Its amazing how much garbage is in those classes. Only very very extremely rarely do you find someone with an interesting take.

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I wouldn't go so far as to say it's typical for them to blame every misfortune on past drinking, but they definitley credit "Higher Power" and AA for everything good and blame themselves for everything bad...keeping them mentally enslaved.

YES-the bad things are your fault-and the good things are AA/counselors credit.

At every session they ask us our experience with the program. I always say you get out of it what you want-and the fact that after a DUI (my case) and the dark place it puts you -court etc-being told over and over how worthless you are-a charles manson would look like an angel if he told you something positive.

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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Yeah, despite our best efforts, if you're told you're a piece of sh*t enough you start to believe it. Sometimes helps to read some motivational books, not based on quackery but the type of stuff salesman read. Also helps to spend time on the hobbies that you're good at.

I am reading a book on positive thinking right now. Really-its more about what we teach ourselves isnt it. I have also kept my hobbies-one of which is music/playing live. I havent mentioned this in counseling because I didnt want them to tell me I had to quit. Plus-I guarantee I would have been judged and treated differently.

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The biggest motivation to quit should be to stop getting into legal (and family) trouble...but if someone sees themselves as being the vistim of a disease, they won't take the personal responsibility that is needed.

I agree! Seeing it not as a personal choice but comparing it to cancer where you absolutely have no choice-well then why not drink an entire fifth every time one presents itself.

My motivation was legal trouble-and the fact that as a single guy I was spending too much money/time in the bars. That is something I was already gaining control of when I got into trouble. I was on my own personal drive to drink less-go out less-meet girls that drank very little or not at all. Of course-I didnt meet them in bars...LOL

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I long for the day that a group of blood-thirsty lawyers grow the balls to jump all over this.

You know whats interesting-is AA is a way for the courts to drop the ball in someone elses court (no pun intended). Basically-its like shovelling off the kids and saying "you watch them-"

I guarantee that AA has lobbyists-etc who love pushing these new laws into place. Its a very socialistic environment to be "babysat" because of a personal choice you made.

I wouldnt mind seeing a class action lawsuit against AA for peddling its religious cult under the guise of "recovery".

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No one is going to do the quitting for them. Everytime someone drinks, they have made a choice to do so. That is not powerless. They might be confused about the motives, or are weak in the face of temptation, but that is not "powerless".

The motives-IE for me was stress etc-are the most important thing to search out in my opinion. The class/AA deals very little with this. I grade it an F on this very subject. They deal more with the "your worthless/powerless" ploy than actual reconditioning of your mental state.

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That was often part of it for me, but it was also programmed in me that it was who I was.
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Some, about half of problem drinkers can return to moderate controlled drinking. If you're healthy and no longer avoiding your problems, than hey, enjoy.

Well-I went for a long time before having even a sip-I was convinced that I would then go buy bottles/crack-heroin-because that was what they told me. I drank a few beers-had a headache the next day-and realized I really didnt care for it as much as I figured I would! I dont frequent bars-and I dont drink at home. Its usually at a bbq or camping. I have found that a special occasion for positive reasons its fine. If I am down-its not time to drink.

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No, that's why sponsorship and the whole scene is destructive. If you think you need to have your life controlled for you by a bunch of control freaks and predators, then your problems run much deeper than alcohol addiction!

I know why I drank-and I am sure you did too

I dont know about you-sometimes when someone tells me not to do something I do it more to rebel. Its a problem I have. Its gotten me into plenty of trouble.

the bottom line is I would rather see myself for the positives and acknowledge and work on the negatives! We really gain alot more by attempting to become the best person we can.

These classes have taken their tolls as I said. The negative reinforcement of class/AA is really damaging. So much so-that as soon as I can afford it I am going to get a non-AA counselor and begin an entirely different type of real healing.

Thanks for the posts-I really appreciate chatting with you!

roche wrote:

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The most interesting things about these classes is that the other people (such as chatting with you here) actually help you more than the counseling. You learn certain things about biology (alot of it is AA tainted info from the 20s)-but overall for me its the others who are in the same boat.
The counselor is 100% AA and hasnt drank since she was 18! Now-where that is admirable-I find it odd when she wants to talk about bars or social circles that I used to frequent much too often. She has no practical experience. I am not detracting from her power to stay sober since 18 though.
Basically its grin and bare it.

She was sober at 18, was she? Um...that it still a teenager...a naive, impressionable teenager. She could have been railroaded into treatment after some typical teenage rebellion and getting caught drinking with her friends a couple of times. Then it was drilled in her that she was diseased and powerless...now she's spreading it to others.
And, yes, she's still stuck in the misinformation from the 20's and 30's...like I said earlier, the first 164 pages of the Big Book are considered sacred text not to be updated or improved EVER.
She's a quack and needs to be stopped...she is hurting people.

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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She was sober at 18, was she? Um...that it still a teenager...a naive, impressionable teenager. She could have been railroaded into treatment after some typical teenage rebellion and getting caught drinking with her friends a couple of times. Then it was drilled in her that she was diseased and powerless...now she's spreading it to others.
And, yes, she's still stuck in the misinformation from the 20's and 30's...like I said earlier, the first 164 pages of the Big Book are considered sacred text not to be updated or improved EVER.
She's a quack and needs to be stopped...she is hurting people.

That was my take when she tells her story. Basically it was standard experimentation/ rebellion of a teenager. She probably had gone out-maybe partied and got a little crazy with a boy-next day hangover, guilt, parents upset-and decided she must have a major problem.

She has no idea what the people who are stuck in it as adults really deal with. She mainly knows AA and that she has to push it. That of course-is why she got the job.

We did have a counselor for a brief time who was a former drug user/alcoholic who didnt push the AA platform. It was a breath of fresh air to have a class with this guy. He dealt with your internal issues! He wanted to know about YOU-about YOUR feelings! Of course he was transferred quickly to deal with anger management. Amazingly-alot of those people are required to attend AA as well.

roche wrote:

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That was my take when she tells her story. Basically it was standard experimentation/ rebellion of a teenager. She probably had gone out-maybe partied and got a little crazy with a boy-next day hangover, guilt, parents upset-and decided she must have a major problem.
She has no idea what the people who are stuck in it as adults really deal with. She mainly knows AA and that she has to push it. That of course-is why she got the job.
We did have a counselor for a brief time who was a former drug user/alcoholic who didnt push the AA platform. It was a breath of fresh air to have a class with this guy. He dealt with your internal issues! He wanted to know about YOU-about YOUR feelings! Of course he was transferred quickly to deal with anger management. Amazingly-alot of those people are required to attend AA as well.

Yeah, that's a shame. They only want the lunatics running the asylum.
You hit the nail on the head earlier...you mentioned somewhere the courts seeing an opportunity to pass the problem off elsewhere...or it could also be that forced AA attendance is good for business. With such a horrendous failure rate, it keeps the same "powerless" offenders shuffling through the doors, paying their court costs and legal fees.

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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Yeah, that's a shame. They only want the lunatics running the asylum.
You hit the nail on the head earlier...you mentioned somewhere the courts seeing an opportunity to pass the problem off elsewhere...or it could also be that forced AA attendance is good for business. With such a horrendous failure rate, it keeps the same "powerless" offenders shuffling through the doors, paying their court costs and legal fees.

The entire thing is a farce. I am very frustrated with the situation. There are of course several sides to any given issue. The "its better than jail" thing has been bantered about with wreckless intent over and over. Taken literally that would mean that the jails should be filled with people who just drank. Whether it be driving-or otherwise-just jails full of people who were drinking. We all know that going to jail isnt going to heal your addictions. If anything-its going to enforce them when you get out.

Which brings me to my point. The frustration and bullshit that these things create is a cause and effect unto itself. You are thrown about thru these obstacles to success so much that instead of positive reinforcement its negative crippling.

I am a bit upset at this time over some other legal ramifications to my personal situation. Seems the laws have changed in midstream and some paperwork I was sent in January is no longer valid-because they have changed their minds.

A little off topic-

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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I like to share my story (experience, strength & hope, LOL) when and where I can if it might help at least on person know ahead of time that the AA cult does not help people, and often causes them greater harm.
Though I would agree that there is much benefit in people coming together to support each other in overcoming addictions...if only that's all AA and the 12-step programs were.

Sorry. I was judging rebecca

Headhunter, it sounds like you've got some MAJOR resentments to work through!
You may want to try to do it in a way that isn't offensive or hurtful to others.
How exactly is your rant about a voluntary, free, recovery program helpful?

Hope wrote:

Headhunter, it sounds like you've got some MAJOR resentments to work through!
You may want to try to do it in a way that isn't offensive or hurtful to others.
How exactly is your rant about a voluntary, free, recovery program helpful?

The facts I post are only offensive and hurtful to those that don't want to hear the facts. Who truly has the resentment? Furthermore, AA is not voluntary for those forced to attend by the courts or indoctrinated by the 75% of the treatment centers that push it as a life-or-death requirement for recovery, which it is not.

Headhunter 300M wrote:

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The facts I post are only offensive and hurtful to those that don't want to hear the facts. Who truly has the resentment? Furthermore, AA is not voluntary for those forced to attend by the courts or indoctrinated by the 75% of the treatment centers that push it as a life-or-death requirement for recovery, which it is not.

heh, i just posted this link in another forum addressing the life-or-death issue. Actually quite a few studies have shown that drinking increases life expectancy. So if your goal is to delay dying, drinking is the way to go. AA simply is not based in science and has no verifiable success. But drinking does have verifiable success! To you poor, dying, suffering sober people, I'll drink one for you.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,859...

drunk wrote:

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heh, i just posted this link in another forum addressing the life-or-death issue. Actually quite a few studies have shown that drinking increases life expectancy. So if your goal is to delay dying, drinking is the way to go. AA simply is not based in science and has no verifiable success. But drinking does have verifiable success! To you poor, dying, suffering sober people, I'll drink one for you.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,859...

Drinking in moderation can certainly be healthy. Drinking to much can damage the liver, the kidneys, the brain, impair one's decision making skills and result in accidental death.

This program has caused me untold greif. If religion worked how
come so may religious people have a problem with drugs and alchhol. Say can you pray away cancer or Aids. NO so why do you think that abuse is a disease that can be cured by two way prayer? AA has hurt the understanding of addiction and should be avioded at all costs. It has morphed into a money machine for losers. It is catholic light with some mods. Confession-step 5
god steps 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. Higher power is me nobody else. I did my addiction and I'am the only one who can solve it, AA has a worse cure rate then natural remmision to alcohol. No other country but ours uses this as a treatment program.

hateAA wrote:

This program has caused me untold greif. If religion worked how
come so may religious people have a problem with drugs and alchhol. Say can you pray away cancer or Aids. NO so why do you think that abuse is a disease that can be cured by two way prayer? AA has hurt the understanding of addiction and should be avioded at all costs. It has morphed into a money machine for losers. It is catholic light with some mods. Confession-step 5
god steps 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. Higher power is me nobody else. I did my addiction and I'am the only one who can solve it, AA has a worse cure rate then natural remmision to alcohol. No other country but ours uses this as a treatment program.

I'm glad you broke away and hope you are feeling better.

'stick with the winners'is what 12step programme invites newcomers to do, glad i did.

pattercake wrote:

'stick with the winners'is what 12step programme invites newcomers to do, glad i did.

If there is a need to instruct newcomers to "stick with the winners" then that is confirmation that 12-step groups are dangerous. Besides, how are vulnerable and ill newcomers to determine what a "winner" is when the rooms are full of manipulative predators? What makes one a "winner" anyway?

Rebecca wrote:

Looks like your meeting is here.

looks like you drank the kool aid

hateAA wrote:

This program has caused me untold greif. If religion worked how
come so may religious people have a problem with drugs and alchhol. Say can you pray away cancer or Aids. NO so why do you think that abuse is a disease that can be cured by two way prayer? AA has hurt the understanding of addiction and should be avioded at all costs. It has morphed into a money machine for losers. It is catholic light with some mods. Confession-step 5
god steps 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. Higher power is me nobody else. I did my addiction and I'am the only one who can solve it, AA has a worse cure rate then natural remmision to alcohol. No other country but ours uses this as a treatment program.other 5

....I will never do another 5 step because things I dnot wanid t all of my meeting to know were spilled out by the person IN A MEETING no less, I would say about 90% of AA just wants to gossip.