Is America Ready to Quit Coal?

free - dim wrote:

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last time i checked u.s. government still has oil in reserves its just they want to cut consumption for everyone else

You may want to check again. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is merely a short-term supply for the US military, in case foreign oil sources are cut off. There's nothing there to run the US economy. The cold fact: we use 25% of the world's oil yet we have only 3% of the world's oil reserves.

Northie wrote:

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No doubt, gas will help get us over the hump. However, although far better than coal, gas is still a major source of CO2 so it cannot be more than a temporary solution.

True as, even though Natural Gas is roughly 85% more so efficient, exponentially more so powerful, and emits 75 to 77% LESS harmful/pollutant gases as a fuel source than any other source presently available, it is but a stopgap along the road to a truly 0-emission fuel source, i.e., electricity.

No one knows how much oil is recoverable off our shores, expanded exploration and production has been banned for thirty years. Saudi Arabia has so much oil because they look for it and have an infrastructure to produce it, we don't.

Oil is an organic, natural energy source; we need to produce more in the US, if we ever want to be free of imports.

Brian_G wrote:

No one knows how much oil is recoverable off our shores, expanded exploration and production has been banned for thirty years. Saudi Arabia has so much oil because they look for it and have an infrastructure to produce it, we don't.
Oil is an organic, natural energy source; we need to produce more in the US, if we ever want to be free of imports.

Brian, no country has been more test-drilled and explored for oil than the United States has. All the lovely coastlines that you claim hold vast reserves have already been pretty thoroughly tested without much success. Here in Washington, even the wilderness coast of Olympic National Park has been explored, as has nearly all of the US West Coast. Florida's Gulf Coast has been explored as well, and it holds a bit more promise, but not much. Only Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge has proven reserves of real size, yet even that is a tiny field by world standards. Meanwhile, North Dakota's Bakken field is too deep to lift economically. Compare this to places like Iraq, where mega-fields lie just below the surface, and you'd see why nothing the US does with domestic oil will make oil any cheaper, nor solve our increasing dependency on the world's oil gangsters. Sure, we'll drill our scenic coasts out of pure desperation, but it absolutely will not solve any of our problems. Or do you know something that the US Energy Information Administration does not?

N. Do you know there is a ban on offshore exploration and drilling?

Offshore Access to America’s Oil and Natural Gas Resources
On October 1, 2008, Congress lifted the federal ban on offshore drilling that had kept 75 percent of U.S. coastal waters in the lower 48 states off limits to development for nearly three decades. Another 10 percent of the U.S. coastal waters remains off limits in the Eastern Gulf of Mexico.

http://www.api.org/policy/exploration/

another old story that should have been discussed last year when the coal companies were lobbying against being closed down

Northie wrote:

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Of the $50 billion for all green energy projects in the stimulus bill,$8.7 billion goes to residential retrofitting and weatherization. Nearly a fifth of the total.
http://climateprogress.org/2009/01/15/breakin...

It's been over 6 months now and the September 2009 reporting required by ARRA should be out. Tell us of the wonderfull green retrofitting and weatherization projects it paid for.

Brian_G wrote:

N. Do you know there is a ban on offshore exploration and drilling?
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http://www.api.org/policy/exploration/

How long has oil exploration been under way in the United States? Prior to offshore drilling limits, drillers were wildcatting EVERYWHERE. Along the beaches, in the forests, in the deserts, in the middle of cities...

The US is no longer the world's leading oil exporter for the simple reason that we've pumped most of our oil. The EIA confirms that.

How much have oil exploration and production improved over the past two generations? How much has computer technology improved in the past thirty years? Why keep a ban when you believe there is no oil? Can we agree to end the ban, get whatever oil is available without environmental disasters, and then move on? I support nuclear power, but let's get our own oil while we expand our energy infrastructure.

Brian_G wrote:

How much have oil exploration and production improved over the past two generations? How much has computer technology improved in the past thirty years? Why keep a ban when you believe there is no oil? Can we agree to end the ban, get whatever oil is available without environmental disasters, and then move on? I support nuclear power, but let's get our own oil while we expand our energy infrastructure.

Yes, we agree! I don't argue against drilling in the remaining corners of the US, as long as we keep rigs out of the true scenic treasures. But we shouldn't expect it to change our circumstances at all.

No, the second we open offshore seas to oil production, the price of oil will fall. Exploration is sure to find plenty, oil is an artifact of life and life abounds.

Northie wrote:

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"They"? Who are they? Pickens? If so, please tell us what he said about oil depletion.
And, no matter what anyone may or may not have said decades ago, our domestic oil is indeed nearly gone, and we live in the most throughly explored, most drilled land on Earth, so we can be quite sure that no huge fields at economic depth remain. Are you in favor of slavery to the Saudi Royals, to Chavez, Putin, Ahmadinijad and the rest of the foreign oil gangsters?

They were the energy experts the same people who are making the exact same predictions now. They have been claiming that all the oil that is at economic depths have been found and like before they will be proven wrong. New fields will be found and new tech will allow us to reach oil that was out of reach.

People like you were talking about how we have been at the mercy of forign oil for decades while blocking oil drilling here. Then you trot out some moronic idea like wind, solar, or electric cars which like before become a popular fad for those who have the moeny to waste on it then falls flat again because they are unable to meet the needs of the average person let alone at a affordable price.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and tell the ones who make the world work that we are doing it all wrong. Why not come out wih a practical solution. One that works rather than one that will make you feel fuzzy.

Northie wrote:

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You may want to check again. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is merely a short-term supply for the US military, in case foreign oil sources are cut off. There's nothing there to run the US economy. The cold fact: we use 25% of the world's oil yet we have only 3% of the world's oil reserves.

Anothr case of not knowing what your talking about. THE SPR was a result of what happened in the seventies. The SPR was set up so that we would not have the same problems again. Another case of not knowing what your talking about.

http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserve...

http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserve...

Northie wrote:

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How long has oil exploration been under way in the United States? Prior to offshore drilling limits, drillers were wildcatting EVERYWHERE. Along the beaches, in the forests, in the deserts, in the middle of cities...
The US is no longer the world's leading oil exporter for the simple reason that we've pumped most of our oil. The EIA confirms that.

Actually the only reason where not an oil exorted is because we will not allow people to go after the oil. Ironically Mexico who is an oil exporter is drilling some of those very same fields and pumping up thier economy with it. Same goes with Cuba with the help of China. Yet on the other side of that borader we have people like you climing that drilling would cause harm to the enviroment. So instead of having one of the cleanest drilling platforms do it you have china who isn't all tha concerned about what they kill off.

On top of it when someone asked you what your solution you stark talking about failures like wind and solar like they are brand new and never been tried.

The EIA is only one of many experts who time has proved wrong again and again. Yet people like you cling to those confirmations like they are from the future.

Northie wrote:

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Yes, we agree! I don't argue against drilling in the remaining corners of the US, as long as we keep rigs out of the true scenic treasures. But we shouldn't expect it to change our circumstances at all.

The rigs are only there until the oil runs out. Besides many of the places your referring to as senic wonders are nothing of the sort. Like ANWAR which is nothing more than an artic swamp. An oil rig would improve the view.

It is also amazing how you talk about oil rigs ruin te view while wanting to build wind generators in the exact same spot.

Brian_G wrote:

Saudi Arabia has so much oil because they look for it and have an infrastructure to produce it, we don't.

Saudi Arabia does not bother to "look" for oil as they've been plagued with it the whole of their lives...That's "plague", which is what they use to commonly refer to it as it was constantly soiling the hem of their clothing and pack animals as oil is abundant in many parts of the Arab nation, ofttimes found just beneath the surface of the sand, which is why they've no need to "look" for it.

You see, they had no commerce what-so-ever other than some degree of spice and linens trade, but nothing that amounted to an actual economic infrastructure, NOTHING! We, and our desire for the use of oil, MADE that country what it is today. This "infrastructure" you speak of was GIVEN to them by us, America, which we designed, built, shipped over there, set up, and TRAINED them to operate solely for the purpose of extracting, refining and shipping it to us.

Further, we (AMERICA) co-own the LARGEST producer and exporter of oil from that nation, a company called "ARAMCO", that's "ARab"-"AMerica n"-oil-"COmpany ", AR-AM-CO...ARAMCO...from which we import over 60% percent of our oil supply.

Ergo, you are sadly misinformed, that, or intent on deliberately misinforming the viewers here.

Brian_G wrote:

How much have oil exploration and production improved over the past two generations? How much has computer technology improved in the past thirty years? Why keep a ban when you believe there is no oil? Can we agree to end the ban, get whatever oil is available without environmental disasters, and then move on? I support nuclear power, but let's get our own oil while we expand our energy infrastructure.

"Why" is because we've realized the disastrous effects of drilling for and extracting oil from our lands, coast line and offshore resources due to the "environmental disasters" we've experienced as a result, which is "why" we maintain the largest industrial infrastructure overseas in Saudi Arabia where you can literally scoop it up by the bucket-fulls, safely, right from the ground.

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Brian_G wrote:

No, the second we open offshore seas to oil production, the price of oil will fall. Exploration is sure to find plenty, oil is an artifact of life and life abounds.

The ONLY reason why the price of oil goes up is by manipulation of the commodity market by the oil producers (that's us) as a way of encouraging further exploration and drilling through intimidation and exploitation of consumers and businesses alike by staging phony shortages and losses in order to spur/stage price increases, much the same as the coal companies in West Virginia have done via manipulation of the local economy through forced hiring freezes and employment shortages and blocking economic development by preventing other companies from opening businesses in the region (essentially playing the people of those neighboring communities against one another in a big game of dirty pool where the coal companies are holding all of the cues) in response to local and national outcry over the irreversible damage that mountaintop removal (commonly referred to as "MTR", a process where mountains are essentially blown up in order to access the veins of coal they contain, a process, while less hazardous for miners as they do not have to operate underground, is proven to be more so hazardous for the miners, their families, and the ecology as it eliminates the once plentiful biodiversity that was so abundant prior to the influx of the coal companies, not to mention dumps massive amounts of debris into the surrounding valleys and streams which, in turn, scares off the natural fauna and poisons the water supplies of all living downstream from the operations...That's as in the natural DRINKING or potable WATER that we are already experiencing NATIONALLY...Which brings us back to the topic at hand, i.e., "Is America Ready to Quit Coal?"

My answer is 'YES'...Now do try to stay ON TOPIC instead of derailing it in order to push your own agenda...Save all of that irrelevant rhetoric for the proper thread.

just an allusion wrote:

...in Saudi Arabia where you can literally scoop it up by the bucket-fulls, safely, right from the ground.

You've obviously never been to Saudi Arabia, I have. They have more because they drill more, they drill deep and wide. We could have more oil, if we chose to open government non-parkland and offshore coastal areas to production. Oil is a commodity, like any other, and its price is set by supply and demand. Sometimes speculators sell and the price falls, sometimes they buy and the price rises. That's the way markets work.

Brian_G wrote:

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You've obviously never been to Saudi Arabia, I have. They have more because they drill more, they drill deep and wide. We could have more oil, if we chose to open government non-parkland and offshore coastal areas to production. Oil is a commodity, like any other, and its price is set by supply and demand. Sometimes speculators sell and the price falls, sometimes they buy and the price rises. That's the way markets work.

Here: http://www.saudiaramco.com/irj/portal/anonymo...

You NEED to do some research and, BTW, In case you've missed it yet again, this thread is about "COAL", not "oil"...Stay on topic or talk to yourself...Your choice.

just an allusion wrote:

...Further, we (AMERICA) co-own the LARGEST producer and exporter of oil from that nation, a company called "ARAMCO", that's "ARab"-"AMerica n"-oil-"COmpany ", AR-AM-CO...ARAMCO...from which we import over 60% percent of our oil supply...

You are so out of date, from your cite:

1980
Saudi Government acquires 100 percent participation interest in Aramco, purchasing almost all of the company's assets.

Most Saudi oil goes to the Far East, again from your cite:

CRUDE OIL
• Far East: 52.7%
• Europe: 5.2%
• Mediterranean: 7.0%
• US: 20%
• Other: 15.1%

REFINED PRODUCTS
• Far East: 53.4%
• Europe: 8.2%
• Mediterranean: 7.4%
• US: 1.4%
• Other: 29.6%

Why don't your write more when you learn something?