Panic disorder can be overcome with medication and therapy

Round3 wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow, you sound really paranoid. Again, I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you. I'm not sure why my location matters in the context that the medications work for me. I hope that you get the help that you need. These types of drugs aren't for everyone. Don't be so angry that they do, in fact, work for some.

Paranoid, angry...if only, I do not have any emotions and am unable to suffer even paranoia.

That's the result of prozac.

For nearly two years drug free.

On top of all the other damage they have done.

chrissy wrote:

Paranoid, angry...if only, I do not have any emotions and am unable to suffer even paranoia.
That's the result of prozac.
For nearly two years drug free.
On top of all the other damage they have done.

As I've said, I truly do feel for you. I've never tried Prozac and I've heard many complaints (in addition to many success stories). I'm just not sure why you seem mad that these medications DO in fact work for many people. Zoloft has been amazing for me for 12 years. I had Generalized Anxiety Disorder and panic issues for most of my life. Once I was on Zoloft, they vanished. And that hasn't been some placebo effect either. I had tried other drugs, had high hopes in them, and then was disappointed.

There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort. Yes, if not tapered properly, they can cause horrid withdrawal. But there isn't one noted case of any sort of brain damage. I don't know what conditions led you to take Prozac in the first place, and I don't know anything about you, so it's impossible to truly gauge your situation.

Round3 wrote:

<quoted text>
As I've said, I truly do feel for you. I've never tried Prozac and I've heard many complaints (in addition to many success stories). I'm just not sure why you seem mad that these medications DO in fact work for many people. Zoloft has been amazing for me for 12 years. I had Generalized Anxiety Disorder and panic issues for most of my life. Once I was on Zoloft, they vanished. And that hasn't been some placebo effect either. I had tried other drugs, had high hopes in them, and then was disappointed.
There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort. Yes, if not tapered properly, they can cause horrid withdrawal. But there isn't one noted case of any sort of brain damage. I don't know what conditions led you to take Prozac in the first place, and I don't know anything about you, so it's impossible to truly gauge your situation.

"There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort."
...and any studies that you look to for info need to have the source ascertained. If anyone involved in the "study" cited can gain anything from the study saying that, then it is not a reliable
or valid source. I find it is best to stick with proven sources before quoting studies, otherwise it tends to make one look very foolish.
The real gist of this is the Serotonin. That is the devil or the angel, depending on how your body is using it. There have been multitudes of studies determining that Serotonin is the cause of some of the major conditions that plague human beings today. At this point, Johns Hopkins has proven that SIDS is undeniably the result of Serotonin misuse by the body, and there is an extensive amount of hope and proof that it is the cause of Diabetes.
Can you imagine?

Doctor My Eyes wrote:

<quoted text>
"There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort."
...and any studies that you look to for info need to have the source ascertained. If anyone involved in the "study" cited can gain anything from the study saying that, then it is not a reliable
or valid source. I find it is best to stick with proven sources before quoting studies, otherwise it tends to make one look very foolish.
The real gist of this is the Serotonin. That is the devil or the angel, depending on how your body is using it. There have been multitudes of studies determining that Serotonin is the cause of some of the major conditions that plague human beings today. At this point, Johns Hopkins has proven that SIDS is undeniably the result of Serotonin misuse by the body, and there is an extensive amount of hope and proof that it is the cause of Diabetes.
Can you imagine?

"There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort"

I have no idea about any studies etc etc, all I know is that they have damaged me for now, whether it's permanent or not, that's in the future. Psychiatrists call it 'changes', I call it damage.

There have been no long-term clinical trials, that I know, so to say that there is no corroborating evidence as to what these drugs can do, is apparant.

benzo333 wrote:

anxiety cure for me only thing works is valium tried all that other bullshit thearopy and so on diazepam is the future and will always be the cure thats my opinion

. Valium is a listed "KEY DRUG" Safe , effective , many indications: anti anxiety, anti spasmotic, social phobias, any panic disorder. It's long durationn lasts all day without undue sedation. Effective, inexpensive , not highly addictive or abusable. Good luck

Selective Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors : Cymbalta, Effexor, others are more effective for depression with pain . It differs somewhat. Carefully use with 5HT drugs like the migraine " drugs like sumatriptan"

So militant. Last time i checked i had more facts than weak pejoratives like yourself; another example would be for me to say you have a love affair with SSRIS.

"Your claims that SSRIs cause chemical imbalances is laughable at best and based on NOTHING but your own bizarre grudge"
Again what can i say-- alot of insults and emotive rhetoric and zero substance. How are those SSRIs on your aggression levels?

"It has been argued that without this knowledge for each patient, SSRIs can actually cause chemical imbalances and abnormal brain states. One possible mechanism is by inhibition of dopaminergic neurotransmission, resulting in described persistent sexual dysfunction". From wikepidea.

In 1996, neuroscientist Steven Hyman, who was head of the NIMH at the time, and is today Provost of Harvard University, published the paper Initiation and Adaptation: A Paradigm for Understanding Psychotropic Drugs, in which he explains this chain of events. According to Dr. Hyman, once your brain has undergone a series of compensatory adaptations to the drug, your brain operates in a manner that is "both qualitatively and quantitatively different than normal."
So, it's important to understand that these drugs are NOT normalizing agents. They're abnormalizing agents, and once you understand that, you can understand how they might provoke a manic episode, or why they might be associated with sexual dysfunction or violence and suicide, for example.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/ar...

Princeton neuroscientist Barry Jacobs wrote: "These drugs alter the level of synaptic transmission beyond the physiologic range achieved under environment/biological conditions. Thus, any behavioural or physiologic change produced under these conditions might more appropriately be considered pathologic, rather than reflective of the normal role of 5ht(serotonin)". from Anatomy of an epidemic by Robert Whitaker-- try reading it!!!
So simple translation, is it effects serotonin function beyond the normal -- CREATE CHEMICAL IMBALANCE!!! that is unachievable without drugs. Though i am sure you will interpret it differently through SSRI coloured glasses.

I suppose these highly qualified individuals have a bizarre grudge as well, as you so eloquently put it. So no "imbalance" is not my word-- i never came up with the theory-- nor am i the first to suggest the opposite may be true.

"Meanwhile, the "studies" don't even brave the waters of anxiety and panic disorder. Why? Because they work. I am living proof that Zoloft can treat such disorders".

OHH WOW!!- i never new. Obviously because you say it is true it must be so. Maybe you can try reading the quote again, and try to get its meaning:

"The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification".
Thomas H. Huxley (1825-95) English biologist.

Im sure for your anecdotal proof(sample size 1), it would not be hard to find examples of it worsening anxiety. OHH wait actually no it is not:

In the original clinical trials of prozac benzodiazepine was co-administered, because it was found the drug was so activating it caused akathisia
August 2, 1978, when only three trials were underway, minutes of a meeting of the Fluoxetine (Prozac) Project Team read: "There have been a fairly large number of reports of adverse reactions... Another depressed patient developed psychosis... Akathisia and restlessness were reported in some patients." A similar meeting held 10 days earlier stated, "some patients have converted from severe depression to agitation within a few days; in one case the agitation was marked and the patient had to be taken off [the] drug." The minutes further state, "in future studies the use of benzodiazepines to control the agitation will be permitted. From that point on, Lilly's trial subjects were put on tranquillizers to get them over the akathisia experienced by some in the early days on the drug. Those who developed akathisia or who had any suicidal tendencies were excluded from the trial data on the basis that they would otherwise obscure the results of the drug's success in treating depression.
http://www.petitiononline.com/lilpro/petition...

"Akathisia may range in intensity from a sense of disquiet or ANXIETY, to severe discomfort, particularly in the knees" from wikepidea. So in this example i can at least give something more meaningful than anecdotal evidence-- which in of itself is worthless--afterall, i am sure anecdotal evidence could have been found to show blood letting works.

ps I found no SSRI made any difference to my severe GAD, only benzodiazepine -- these were addictive and worsened it long-term. SSRIs also caused me tardive dysphoria -- that is what i call statistically insignificant anecdotal evidence.

"In cases of severe depression, the SSRIs do offer improvements -- especially LONG-TERM improvements".

Again with statements of fact, with not a single shred of evidence to support it. The quote by Thomas Huxley comes to mind again. Must we take you on faith then.
Let me counter with something other than faith based understandings:

"In the early 1990s, El-Mallakh notes, only about 10% to 15% of patients with major depressive illness had treatment-resistant depression (and thus were chronically ill.) In 2006, researchers reported that nearly 40% of patients were now treatment-resistant. In a period when use of SSRI antidepressants exploded, refractory depression went on the march".
This condition, El-Mallakh writes, often develops in people who had a good initial response to an antidepressant, and then continue taking the drug. However, up to 80% of patients maintained on an antidepressant suffer a recurrence of symptoms, and once that “initial treatment response is lost,” continued efforts to treat the relapsed patient with antidepressants frequently results in “poor response and the rise of treatment-resistant depression.” Rif El-Mallakh at the University of Louisville School of Medicine.
http://truthman30.wordpress.com/2011/07/01/lo...

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence". David Hume

"I think it is now fair to say that we do have a definitive understanding of the fact that depression is a killer"

"A study by the World Health Organization conducted in fifteen countries around the world to assess the value of screening for depression:
WHO identified 740 people as depressed, and it was the 484 who were'nt exposed to psychotropic medications( whether diagnosed or not) that had the best outcomes. They enjoyed much better "general health" at the end of one year, their depressive symptoms were much milder, and a lower percentage were judged to be "mentally ill". The group that suffered most from "continued depression" were the patients treated with an antidepressant. The "STUDY DOES NOT SUPPORT THE VIEW THAT FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE DEPRESSION HAS SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES" the investigators wrote."
From Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker.

So this study did not conclude that depression is a killer, and making such sweeping statements that are not backed up with evidence.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence". David Hume

There's nothing quite like posting little snippets from vague, undefined "studies" and claiming them as fact. Classic!

What were the control groups? How many people? Over what stretch of time? How many were in the placebo group? What were the conditions being treated? How severe?

Where's the evidence against these medications working to treat GAD and Panic Disorder?

We've now seen your two sources: an Italian shrink and a professional writer. We've see a minor little peek at the latter's 700 person "study". All the while, I have taken one of these medications for 15 years, have experienced no side effects, no reappearance of treated symptoms, no negative health, no "poop-out syndrome", yet a much happier life.

Huh, go figure.

"There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort. Yes, if not tapered properly, they can cause horrid withdrawal. But there isn't one noted case of any sort of brain damage".

Department of Psychiatry, University of Colorado School of Medicine in Denver, USA.

"Three cases in which patients who were taking fluoxetine for relief of depression showed patterns of abnormal movements suggestive of tardive dyskinesia are presented. In the first case, abnormal facial movements began four weeks after fluoxetine was added to doxepin and lithium and remitted after fluoxetine was discontinued. In the second case, abnormal movements of the mouth and hands were noticed four years after the patient started taking fluoxetine and continued to be present a year after withdrawal of the medication. In the third case, orofacial dyskinesia that had remitted after withdrawal of sertraline and paroxetine and reappeared with fluoxetine was still present eight months after fluoxetine was withdrawn".

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/antidepre...

You will find there are many more case studies at this site.

"Harvard medical Schools Dr. Joseph Glenmullen documents the ominous long-term side effects associated with serotonin-boosting medications. These side effects include nuerological disorders ; sexual dysfunction, such as disfiguring facial and whole body tics that can indicate brain damage...." "Prozac Backlash"
Try reading it and you will find many cases of neurological damage from SSRIs.

ps The fact you categorically stated a falsehood ("There is no evidence that SSRI drugs do long-term damage of any sort"), makes me either suspect you of one of 2 things:

1. You are either blissfully ignorant not wanting to hear anything that will cause you any doubt about your treatment or,

2. And the more likely; you are a troll with ties to the Pharmaceutical industry--- i guess Chrissy and i can agree on this.

"We've now seen your two sources: an Italian shrink and a professional writer. We've see a minor little peek at the latter's 700 person "study"."

Maybe some proof of cognitive impairment in your above statement. The later persons study. Try reading carefully. It was a study by the World Health Organization and not the author. In fact i think i can be pretty sure that any study in his book was not in fact done by the said author.

"There's nothing quite like posting little snippets from vague, undefined "studies" and claiming them as fact. Classic!

What were the control groups? How many people? Over what stretch of time? How many were in the placebo group? What were the conditions being treated? How severe? "

Obviously i cannot outline the entire study. Here is an idea look them up yourself, and or direct your questions to the authors of the studies.
Better, try actually reading them and, " Prozac Backlash", "Let them eat Prozac" both by renowned psychiatrists and " Anatomy of an Epidemic"

"Where's the evidence against these medications working to treat GAD and Panic Disorder?"
I believe the pertinent quetion is where is the evidence for medication for their treatment. Afterall, the burden of proof is not disproving a drug may or may not do something, but rather proving it. Your logic is back to front: a drug works in this manner, until proven otherwise.

Again with the anecdotal evidence about yourself. Worthless as i can equally counter it with, irrelevant anecdotal evidence about my own experiences.Once again read and try to actually understand, "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence". David Hume

ps I think it fair to say, all studies are vague to you--period

I find it hard to believe so many
pharmaceutical company rep's on here.

They seem to want to deny the other
experiences of many on here.

Anxiety is hell I know. After 10
yrs of SSRIs I would willingly turn
the clock back,if only.

Normally I wouldnt talk about this
but more and more negative evidence
emerges worringly.
That is making me anxious.

These studies should be done, and I agree with the push against prescribing these medications to people with mild depression. However, I'm not sure why I should be surprised that a seriously depressed person who stops taking anti-depressants has a relapse into depression. Wow, how novel! Nothing in these studies, having now read up on them, is FACT. It's the scraping together of hypotheses based on limited data.

So, Ben, what's your answer for those with chronic anxiety and panic disorders? Just live with them and have a miserable life? Is that why you're so angry and eager to tear people down?

Though negative long-term effects are still unproven, there is evidence of POSITIVE long-term effects of SSRI drugs.

http://www.news-medical.net/health/SSRIs-How-...

After the use of an SSRI, since there is more serotonin available, the response is to decrease the number of postsynaptic receptors over time and in the long run, this modifies the serotonin/receptor ratio.

This downregulation of 5-HT2A occurs when the antidepressant effects of SSRIs become apparent.

Also, deceased suicidal and otherwise depressed patients have had more 5-HT2A receptors than normal patients. These considerations suggest that 5-HT2A overactivity is involved in the pathogenesis of depression.

Studies have suggested that SSRIs may promote the growth of new neural pathways or neurogenesis in rats.

Also, SSRIs may protect against neurotoxicity caused by other compounds (for instance MDMA and fenfluramine) as well as from depression itself. SSRIs have been found to induce programmed cell death in Burkitt lymphoma and the brain tumors neuroblastoma and glioma with minimal effect on normal tissue.

Huh, go figure...more benefits!

http://chicago-psychiatrist.com/the-benefits-...

An earlier article posted on this site discussed how serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRIs can actually help protect the sheathing around the nerves and also reduce the loss of brain cells in the region of the brain known as the hippocampus. The study referenced was conducted in 2003 and some questioned is legitimacy, however a new study at King’s College in London England has also confirmed that the benefits of SSRI’s include protecting the brain from cell death in the hippocampus region of the brain.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/04/26/can-ant...

In a small preliminary study, researchers from Loyola University Medical Center found that patients taking SSRIs showed reduced clotting of blood platelets—a potential benefit to those with cardiovascular conditions such as atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries.

Round3 wrote:

Huh, go figure...more benefits!
http://chicago-psychiatrist.com/the-benefits-...
An earlier article posted on this site discussed how serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRIs can actually help protect the sheathing around the nerves and also reduce the loss of brain cells in the region of the brain known as the hippocampus. The study referenced was conducted in 2003 and some questioned is legitimacy, however a new study at King’s College in London England has also confirmed that the benefits of SSRI’s include protecting the brain from cell death in the hippocampus region of the brain.
http://healthland.time.com/2010/04/26/can-ant...
In a small preliminary study, researchers from Loyola University Medical Center found that patients taking SSRIs showed reduced clotting of blood platelets—a potential benefit to those with cardiovascular conditions such as atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries.

Tee Hee! You're on a roll! What a great distractor! I detect a whole lot of healing happening here. On the other hand, there's a disturbing amount of hurting, as well. Be kind.

ben wrote:

@ Doctor my eyes
"I wholly support the growing use of the SSRI's as I see so much pain and disturbance relieved by it".
Interesting that you know first hand ; are you a medical practitioner-- regardless of which, this is hardly a reassuring statement, as you can not attribute the success to the SSRI by default: how do you know they were not a placebo responder, as this is entirely more likely in any but the most severely depressed.
the risks and lack of long-term research around them, it is unacceptable to think the placebo effect does not matter so long as they get better ;afterall, there are safer placebos.
ps how about some credible science people instead of unreliable anecdotal evidence. Unwavering belief in SSRIs, regardless of evidence, is the quintessential placebo effect at work.

"ps how about some credible science people instead of unreliable anecdotal evidence."

DME wrote:
Here ya go. It's in the first paragraph of my comment.
"The Mayo Clinic, one of the more foremost authorities on the medical treatment of mental illness, provides a link for the public to help deal with getting the proper treatments.
Here is a link.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/ssris/MH0006 ... "

I'm sorry you are feeling so bitter. It really is a terrible way to live.