Landis Still Expecting Good News

croation princess wrote:

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will, your good.

...just trying to keep up with you Princess -- because you're my hero(-ine)!
;->

ricky rider wrote:

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Raymond,
Just for the record, I called Will an idiot, not a hypocrite and I stand by that assertion.
I have been calling for people to wait until they have the facts before making a judgment about Landis. I have also stated many times that I don't know if he's guilty or not and that it's better to wait until you have the facts before making a judgment. There is nothing ambiguous or hypocritical about that. However, if Landis is cleared of wrongdoing, Willie will have to admit that he's been wrong all along, or he'll have to fabricate some flimsy rationalization that Floyd is guilty anyway.

OK. Idiot/Hypocrite? I also hope that you except unreservedly, the final outcome to this sad saga for cycling. Keep cycling clean, just for the joy of it. regards Raymond

Raymond wrote:

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OK. Idiot/Hypocrite? I also hope that you except unreservedly, the final outcome to this sad saga for cycling. Keep cycling clean, just for the joy of it. regards Raymond

Hear, hear!

Will wrote:

In the thread entitled "Cycling Teams Urge Phonak Suspension" on 8/24/06, ricky rider wrote:
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Slick Willie, you sure pulled a fast one this time, quoting me out of context like that. I wrote that it "...appears that Landis doped...", and that's true, it does appear that he doped. But what you fail to see is that it's also possible that the lab made a mistake, either intentionally or not, or that something else happened to result in the AAF. The difference between you and me is that I, like the USADA and all the other relevant authorities, including the TDF, am willing to wait for the review panel to issue a ruling. I don't care if he's guilty or not but I think he deserves an opportunity to rebut the claims of the lab while you believe the lab is infallable and there cannot possibly be any other outcome except that poor old Floyd is guilty. You jump to conclusions before you have all the facts. If the lab said the sky is falling you'd believe it.

Raymond wrote:

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OK. Idiot/Hypocrite? I also hope that you except unreservedly, the final outcome to this sad saga for cycling. Keep cycling clean, just for the joy of it. regards Raymond

Raymond, that is exactly what I intend to do. If after reviewing the facts of the case the review panel rules him guilty, then as far as I am concerned, he's guilty. If they rule the other way, then he's innocent.

By the way, I am an avid cycler and I hope for the sake of the sport that whatever the outcome of this case is, it doesn't harm our sport any more than it already has.

Will wrote:

In the thread entitled "Cycling Teams Urge Phonak Suspension" on 8/24/06, ricky rider wrote:
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Slick Willie, here is my complete post from 8-24-06. I'm beginning to think maybe I should be calling you SICK Willie instead of SLICK Willie.

Okay, Ive been reading all these posts since the hammer came down on Floyd. It's a shame, but it certainly appears that he doped for stage 17. However, in spite of the the bombast of Will, those who are interested in cycling and the truth (not necessarily in that order) ought to quit passing judgment and await the outcome of the judicial process. I know, it's just so easy to jump on Floyd and tar & feather him right now. That's cool, it is so southern to grab onto what the sheriff done said and lynch the mofo as soon as we can get a rope over the branch of the nearest weepin' willow tree. We just love to get justice served and git on to the next thing quick as we can. However, there has been enough doubt cast on the integrity of the lab that an outside, objective arbiter of the truth should be called in. If Floyd dosed, he should be hosed, but we don't know that for sure yet. If he didn't, well then, Will ought to be brought up on charges fo jumping to conclusions and being way too much of a redneck cracker.

I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. People who are as full of angst as you are get high blood pressure, have health problems, and are no fun to hang around with. Relax Willieboy, let the facts come out, then if he's guilty, he'll pay. I

I try to see the big picture of this whole scandal. Landis...still has to prove "innocence" or fall flat and fail. We don't know what he and his legal team have to try to prove this. One...if he is guilty...than I wish someone could get to the root of how he really did it. It seems NO doper in the cycling world or other sports world has found the strength to confess...I mean really spill the beans on the whole issue. But, again if he is innocent..and it can be proved...I like to see this lab investigated. "Let heads roll" as the saying goes. Of course, my wishful thinking will probably not produce these kind of results. Also, hearing about the "legal" testerone in others urine samples makes a medical base person say "hmmmm?" But, I also, see that his lawyer has a history of attacking lab procedures. However, as a defense what other tangible factor can be used???? And, let's all take a deep breathe...whatever any of us want to see happen in this scandal...may not happen. At least, we don't have to live with that, Landis does.

zwrites wrote:

I try to see the big picture of this whole scandal. Landis...still has to prove "innocence" or fall flat and fail. We don't know what he and his legal team have to try to prove this. One...if he is guilty...than I wish someone could get to the root of how he really did it. It seems NO doper in the cycling world or other sports world has found the strength to confess...I mean really spill the beans on the whole issue. But, again if he is innocent..and it can be proved...I like to see this lab investigated. "Let heads roll" as the saying goes. Of course, my wishful thinking will probably not produce these kind of results. Also, hearing about the "legal" testerone in others urine samples makes a medical base person say "hmmmm?" But, I also, see that his lawyer has a history of attacking lab procedures. However, as a defense what other tangible factor can be used???? And, let's all take a deep breathe...whatever any of us want to see happen in this scandal...may not happen. At least, we don't have to live with that, Landis does.

I agree with you, Z. Landis has to show that the lab made a mistake, the sample was tampered with or some other factor resulted in the AAF. I don't think that will be easy unless he shows that there were flagrant issues with the lab. However, he deserves to be able to defend himself and I guess his lawyers presented their case to the review panel today. So now we have to sit back and wait for their ruling. If he is innocent, you're right, the lab should be investigated and the entire idea of using a lab connected with L'equipe and rather lax in its ethics should be reviewed. On the other hand if Landis is found guilty, he should come out with every bit of information he has regarding doping, masking, his dope connections, his methodologies and an apology to the cycling world. He will also be shamed out of sports, and good riddance to all the dopers. But, let's wait and see what the ruling is first.

ricky rider wrote:

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I agree with you, Z. Landis has to show that the lab made a mistake, the sample was tampered with or some other factor resulted in the AAF. I don't think that will be easy unless he shows that there were flagrant issues with the lab.

As of today, 9/11, Floyd's website has details on the motion for dismissal and some reasons for same.( CIR test was negative for 3 out of 4 metabolites...and the fourth appears to be a lab error.........T/E test had wild inconsistencies for T and E....and mismatched sample numbers that weren't assigned to Floyd....)

Quite interesting reading. Hope this goes to a PUBLIC review board where we can all hear the facts.

---Salem, Oregon---.

Wayne wrote:

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As of today, 9/11, Floyd's website has details on the motion for dismissal and some reasons for same.( CIR test was negative for 3 out of 4 metabolites...and the fourth appears to be a lab error.........T/E test had wild inconsistencies for T and E....and mismatched sample numbers that weren't assigned to Floyd....)
Quite interesting reading. Hope this goes to a PUBLIC review board where we can all hear the facts.
---Salem, Oregon---.

Very interesting reading. I would love to see the entire text of Jacobs' submission. I wonder how the medical expert on the review panel will view these assertions. If they are true, the lab has much to answer for. But once again, we are seeing only one side of the case and those who hope Floyd is innocent
ought not get too excited just yet.

Still, it is interesting that Jacobs claims that "...Given the data, three of the four testosterone metabolite differentials tested in Landis’ sample are reported as negative considering the margin of error." And "...The only testosterone metabolite that can even be argued as positive under the WADA Positivity Criteria resulted from an unknown laboratory error and is not the result of testosterone usage."

The plot has definitely thickened.

ricky rider wrote:

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Very interesting reading. I would love to see the entire text of Jacobs' submission.

Me too. I'm quite let down they haven't released it, and I hope it's a temporary thing. I've put up a "report card" on http://trustbut.blogspot.com , and I can only charitably give it an Incomplete at this point. What is there is intriguing, but not convincing without a lot more detail than has been provided. The chain of custody issues they point out don't seem to be aimed at proving Nazi Frogmen spiked the samples, more that there was a lot of sloppy handling generally. I don't think CoC is going to be a critical part of the factual defense, which is good.

TBV http://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research, and comment.

Ricky,
I lurk on these boards daily, painfully trying to gain insight into this horrible situation.
Thanks for spilling neutral info, as opposed to the always biased and judgmental Will.
Look forward to your take in the days to come.
Phillip

Will wrote:

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As I've said before, it is COMPLETELY UNETHICAL for the public generally or anyone in particular to try to influence the deliberative process, whether of the review panel deciding if sufficient evidence of doping exists to proceed with adjudication, or whether of the arbitrators deciding if a sanction should be imposed for a doping violation. Such influence would be equivalent to "jury tampering" or improperly influencing a judge in an attempt affect his/her decisionmaking. Like judges or juries, the review panel and the arbitrators are FACT-FINDERS, and they are obligated to find the facts BASED SOLELY UPON THE EVIDENCE PLACED BEFORE THEM AND BY APPLYING THE RULES PLACED BEFORE THEM, WITHOUT RESORT TO ANY OUTSIDE FACTORS WHATSOEVER.
So where would you Landis-supporters draw the line? Would you approve Landis slipping an envelope with $25,000 to each review panel member and arbitrator? How about if a sufficiently large and threatening group of Landis-supporters gathered inside any public hearing room? How about if a few over-zealous Landis-supporters called in bomb threats to the public hearing facility? How about if threats were made to the families of the review panel or arbitrators? Tell me, WHY DO YOU THINK IT PERMISSIBLE TO TRY,IN ANY WAY, TO INFLUENCE THESE FACT-FINDERS IN MAKING THEIR DECISIONS?

Will, do you have any doubt that the UCI and WADA will be placing extraordinary pressure on the USADA? WADA has a great deal of credibility to lose if FL is not found to have doped. I have little doubt that they would stoop to any of the methods you would suggest FL supporters use. Frankly, I am not at all sure FL has extra funds to bribe the panel. But, the ruling structure of the WADA hierarchy may well be at stake and so they have to be desperate especially in the wake of the negative B sample for Marion Jones.

ricky rider wrote:

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Raymond, that is exactly what I intend to do. If after reviewing the facts of the case the review panel rules him guilty, then as far as I am concerned, he's guilty. If they rule the other way, then he's innocent.
By the way, I am an avid cycler and I hope for the sake of the sport that whatever the outcome of this case is, it doesn't harm our sport any more than it already has.

We 100% agree. Now I'm off for my 50k ride.

Raymond wrote:

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We 100% agree. Now I'm off for my 50k ride.

Good for you, Raymond. Isn't that a better use of our time and energy than endless arguments about a topic for which none of us have the complete facts????

I plan to leave here in about an hour for an easy 34-mile ride out to a small town west of here...for breakfast ....

---Salem, Oregon---

Wayne wrote:

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Good for you, Raymond. Isn't that a better use of our time and energy than endless arguments about a topic for which none of us have the complete facts????
I plan to leave here in about an hour for an easy 34-mile ride out to a small town west of here...for breakfast ....
---Salem, Oregon---

Good for you too Wayne, Your comment makes sence.

Back from my ride to Carcassonne 2hrs about 50k. Now I'm 70+, getting slower lol

Good riding there in Origan. Regards Raymond

Will wrote:

...yes Raymond, but it's only a secret from the PUBLIC, because public ignorance serves to benefit Landis; you can be certain that it's no secret from UCI/USADA/WADA, who already know everything that the Landis team knows.

This is where it all started.

I often go back through the previous topics and threads to re-read some of the posts. It's been interesting to see the history that this forum has established and the perspectives within.

Cheers