Vinokourov to fight blood doping charge

...GO FOR IT 'VINO'

GO VINO!!!- that French lab has been guilty of mismanagement of samples and testing in the past - with nothing done about it!- Vino is neither crazy nor stupid - both of which would be necessary to attempt to get away with blood doping. VINO - good luck with your case. Your fans believe in you.

Susan

Vino will strike back!!

Ssuan wrote:

GO VINO!!!- that French lab has been guilty of mismanagement of samples and testing in the past - with nothing done about it!- Vino is neither crazy nor stupid - both of which would be necessary to attempt to get away with blood doping. VINO - good luck with your case. Your fans believe in you.
Susan

"neither crazy nor stupid"
Apart from arguments over lab tests, common sense would prevent anyone from doping to win a TT knowing he'd be tested. He could have lost the Tour with homour, after that crash. Why on earth would anyone (especially Vino) risk disgrace?

liz wrote:

<quoted text>"neither crazy nor stupid"
Apart from arguments over lab tests, common sense would prevent anyone from doping to win a TT knowing he'd be tested. He could have lost the Tour with homour, after that crash. Why on earth would anyone (especially Vino) risk disgrace?

Money. Fame. Power. same reasons anyone cheats--not saying that i think he doped.

i am anxious to learn from all of you the science behind the blood doping tests...

Todd, if you put "Blood Dopping" into google.com , you'll find planty of information explaining the history and the method for you.

Cheers

My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:

Todd, if you put "Blood Dopping" into google.com , you'll find planty of information explaining the history and the method for you.
Cheers

Thanks MOEP. I did just that and the wikipedia site makes sense to me and is easy for anyone to understand. what is most curious is the doping method of using one's own red blood cells and that according to the website there is no known test for it, yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping

Also in my searches I found this:

http://www.training4cyclists.com/powder-might...

Now, let's think about it. There is no known test using own's own red blood cells and there is a good chance that epo can be easily masked...

Todd wrote:

<quoted text>
Money. Fame. Power. same reasons anyone cheats--not saying that i think he doped.
i am anxious to learn from all of you the science behind the blood doping tests...

Money, fame & power, Todd? But he has all three!

In the 80s, when I was a happy young skier in Vail, Colo, the trend at the time was for cyclists to live in high-altitude zones...

Boulder was home to Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter, multi-winners each of the Coors Int'l Cycling Classic race... European cyclists moved to Chamonix, etc...

Then came EPO, and they all could synthetically boost their hematocrits...

The rest is infamy.

As to Vino, I wrote elsewhere that, if he DID transfuse, someone could have mistakenly packed a sack that was NEAR his, that was same Blood-type/Rh factor... so instead of auto-transfusing it was homologous transfusing.

Let's just wait and see HOW the LNDD (rumoured (by my posts and blog) to have been renamed the 'département des analyses' within the French gov't ministerial structure; this LNDD name resurfaced during the L'Equipe coverage of TdF2007) presents its evidence.

ZENtime

liz wrote:

<quoted text>
Money, fame & power, Todd? But he has all three!

Indeed Liz he has all three, whether or not he keeps it is another question.

Like Floyd I won't proclaim his innocence, because like Floyd, I, nor you, can know if he did or didn't dope. I admire your ability to believe as strongly as you do. I think that it is very important to have people like you in the world.

I also think it is important to have people like me and people like Will and Chris (if you have 1000 extra hours on your hands reread the Floyd Landis threads).

Part of the point I have tried to make in my meager contributions is that all I know, is that you (collective) don't know. And to "know" in this case is to be to a certain extent blind.

I certainly hope he and Floyd are innocent.

Todd,
very reasonable concepts

we should all hope that people are innocent until proven guilty

How would we feel if we showed up to work one day, drug clean, and were asked to do a drug screen and failed, due to poor analysis?

Todd's Post #10: If you read many of the threads in this forum Todd, than you would have already seen that most of the posters here had admitted that we don't know if Floyd Landis did or did not dope in the 2006 TDF.

But, you would have also read some important information related to the following:

WADA & UCI policies and rules: of which Will continully tried distorting to his beliefs. And where ZENmud who works in the legal profession continully shot Will down, while providing factual interpretation of the law.

LNDD Lab Process: again of which Will continued in distorting to his beliefs. Here, TBV (Trust But Verify) and Jon (Salt Lake City) along with some others provided accurate explanations of the science in laymen's terms to better help everyone here in understanding the science involved.

LNDD: on how suddenly the critical and most important data relating to Floyd Landis's case suddenly got deleted from the LNDD's computer.

The LNDD testing documents can be found on Floyd Landis's web site and also at TBV's blog site.

The entire testimony transcript from Floyd Landis's ABR's hearing that took place lact May 2007 can be found over at TBV's blog site. If I'm remembering correctly, TBV attended that ARB's hearing every day that it took place.

The main group of posters who have been inolved here since last August 2006 have done a lot of reasearch on their own and have contributed that here throughout this forum.

Sorry to state here, but many of us here are not blind as we don't wear blinders and we certainly know well enough not to listen to the news media.

NOTE: In order to understand any issue at hand, one needs to research for themselves in order to better understand all the complexities of that issue. One has to realize that in doing this, one has to research "BOTH SIDES" of the issue.

Cheers Everyone

Moep,

I did not intend to offend you and the large amount of work everyone has done in an attmept to prove their points. I apologize for that. As I have said in past threads I think Floyd should be found innocent, because of all the items and more that you state above.

I merely argue semantics on the word "know".

I too have read almost all of the threads and done too much reading on my own hoping to find proof. I do find the evidence stated for Floyds innocence is very compelling and stronger than opposite and in a court of law where reasonable doubt is the criteria he would certainly be innocent, but under the criteria he is being tried under, I don't know what will happen.

Awaiting the decision...

Your post wasn't offending as much as it reminded me that it might be time for a refresher on perspectives and on looking at the realities of this mess that I've been calling the "Soap Opera Circus."

I could see that you took the time in reading the various threads here, while it seems to me that others just jump the gun everytime that the news media spits out more garbage than facts.

And you have my apology for causing you any ill feeling.

We are all awaiting the ARBs decision.

Cheers Todd

Too bad journalists aren't drug tested as much as the pro cyclists. Then they might be more empathetic to the athletes and less accusatory.

rubber side down wrote:

Too bad journalists aren't drug tested as much as the pro cyclists. Then they might be more empathetic to the athletes and less accusatory.

Now, I would enjoy seeing journalists drug tested everyday. Some of them act as if they've been on drugs for years.

Cheers

Todd wrote:

<quoted text>
Indeed Liz he has all three, whether or not he keeps it is another question.
Like Floyd I won't proclaim his innocence, because like Floyd, I, nor you, can know if he did or didn't dope. I admire your ability to believe as strongly as you do. I think that it is very important to have people like you in the world.
I also think it is important to have people like me and people like Will and Chris (if you have 1000 extra hours on your hands reread the Floyd Landis threads).
Part of the point I have tried to make in my meager contributions is that all I know, is that you (collective) don't know. And to "know" in this case is to be to a certain extent blind.
I certainly hope he and Floyd are innocent.

Todd, You seem a fair-minded man, but I'm not aware that I expressed 'a belief' in anyone, nor that I 'know' anything. I was just trying to apply commom sense to Vino's situation. As Susanne said:'He's not stupid.' It makes no sense to risk one's precious reputation by blood doping when one has every... not excuse... every reason to lose with one's honour intact. In the Landis case, I'm open minded because of the disappearing lab data. But he admitted to drinking a fair amount of alcohol the night before his amazing comeback ride. Now, alcohol does affect one's judgement and destroys one's common sense; and that's not a 'belief', but a documented fact.

Liz
page 163 of Positively False ...round of beers
page 164 .... shot of Jack Daniels

not necessarily a fair amount of alcohol right?
not enough to do something stupid like all the rest of the riders caught by bad LNDD analyses.

rubber side down wrote:

Liz
page 163 of Positively False ...round of beers
page 164 .... shot of Jack Daniels
not necessarily a fair amount of alcohol right?
not enough to do something stupid like all the rest of the riders caught by bad LNDD analyses.

A book is written when you've had time to think about things. How many is 'a round'? In one of his earlier interviews he said he'd had six beers and a couple of whiskies. That would be enough to cloud one's judgement, especially if one's bodily strength is depleted.

I certainly do not claim to know Vino personally but I think it is a fair assumption to make that he appears a strong and proud person - especially so when considering how much effort he put into the development of the Astana cycling team. Watch his interview on the official team website - if it's still there!! I just don't believe that he would risk everything that seems important to him professionally to win a stage or two in the TDF. I believe his reputation matters very much to him. At least the government of Kazakhstan has come out in support of him. GO VINO - I'm actively following his case. Does anyone see a similarity to the way Rasmussen, Contador, Vino, Landis,(Armstrong, still to this day) etc. and many others to a "witch hunt"??