Pro-choice groups fight Missouri ballot proposal

STOs gf wrote:

Love all of these last ditch efforts to usurp the rights of women to make their own decisions, before the next election kicks the rest of the misogynistic zealots out on the street.
VOTE DEMOCRAT OR LOSE YOUR RIGHTS!

All because ONE WOMAN caved in to her boss, they want the DOCTORS to make the choice for women? Control freaks, one and all...Very, very scary, indeed.

So, she had emotional problems to begin with, but wants to blame them on her abortion, and wants to blame her abortion on others? Ridiculous.

I'm from MD originally. Gotta love the conservative bias of the Times. To paraphrase Stephen King, either the Times or the Post are comic relief, I just can't figure out which one, lol. It's like the networks. In our house the joke is "Honey, should we watch the Fascist News Center, or the Communist News Network? We usually settle for NPR, or the BBC :-D

Bitner wrote:

So, she had emotional problems to begin with, but wants to blame them on her abortion, and wants to blame her abortion on others? Ridiculous.
I'm from MD originally. Gotta love the conservative bias of the Times. To paraphrase Stephen King, either the Times or the Post are comic relief, I just can't figure out which one, lol. It's like the networks. In our house the joke is "Honey, should we watch the Fascist News Center, or the Communist News Network? We usually settle for NPR, or the BBC :-D

LOL!! Exactly!

Bitner wrote:

So, she had emotional problems to begin with, but wants to blame them on her abortion, and wants to blame her abortion on others? Ridiculous.
I'm from MD originally. Gotta love the conservative bias of the Times. To paraphrase Stephen King, either the Times or the Post are comic relief, I just can't figure out which one, lol. It's like the networks. In our house the joke is "Honey, should we watch the Fascist News Center, or the Communist News Network? We usually settle for NPR, or the BBC :-D

You can respond 'coldly' about her having emotional problems to begin with, but it makes the point for them when you do.

Why?? Because a proper medical concern would ask if there's coersion involved. Its not 'against how you describe 'choice' to be to wish someone to 'not be pressured' into the choice.

And, if there are emotional problems such as depression, it is a proper medical question and concern to ask this as a abortion counseling pre-requesite. Then, whatever the patient 'chooses', they can be made aware of available counseling and if its recommended by the doctor. Sometimes when it is...insurances may be available.

But, having medical questionaires and counseling...is just good medicine. Its not just part of this battle about abortion. And, each side of this issue needs NOT to forget about the needs of these women they supposedly are fighting FOR.

Many who are in the circumstance to consider an abortion choice have been through some hard knocks in life. And, if they have some depression....it may make logical sense depending on what they've faced.

Batting Strong wrote:

<quoted text>
You can respond 'coldly' about her having emotional problems to begin with, but it makes the point for them when you do.
Why?? Because a proper medical concern would ask if there's coersion involved. Its not 'against how you describe 'choice' to be to wish someone to 'not be pressured' into the choice.
And, if there are emotional problems such as depression, it is a proper medical question and concern to ask this as a abortion counseling pre-requesite. Then, whatever the patient 'chooses', they can be made aware of available counseling and if its recommended by the doctor. Sometimes when it is...insurances may be available.
But, having medical questionaires and counseling...is just good medicine. Its not just part of this battle about abortion. And, each side of this issue needs NOT to forget about the needs of these women they supposedly are fighting FOR.

You know what? They may not have asked TWENTY-SEVEN years ago. Then again, it may have been that one place. We don't know. What I do know from the women I know who have had an abortion is that they do ask if this is the woman's own choice, and that counselling was given. Now, or then, a woman's boss cannot be in the room watching while she answers, and so the choice is still hers. Feeling like you are obligated to do something is not the same thing as being forced to do it, no matter how you spin it.

It's been determined by the APA that any emotional problems are pre-existing in these cases, or else the problems stem from societal censure and condemnation afterward. It's funny how so many people are willing to listen to this woman blame everyone but herself for this issue, and yet someone else would be told to stop whinning and take responsibility for their own actions.

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
You know what? They may not have asked TWENTY-SEVEN years ago. Then again, it may have been that one place. We don't know. What I do know from the women I know who have had an abortion is that they do ask if this is the woman's own choice, and that counselling was given. Now, or then, a woman's boss cannot be in the room watching while she answers, and so the choice is still hers. Feeling like you are obligated to do something is not the same thing as being forced to do it, no matter how you spin it.
It's been determined by the APA that any emotional problems are pre-existing in these cases, or else the problems stem from societal censure and condemnation afterward. It's funny how so many people are willing to listen to this woman blame everyone but herself for this issue, and yet someone else would be told to stop whinning and take responsibility for their own actions.

Exactly! I wouldn't be surprised if she sued her boss for "coercing" her.

I have no problem with counseling, but in this case 1) the counseling is too late, it should start BEFORE people become sexually active (good luck with that!), and 2) it is biased. The intent is to dissuade abortion, when, in fact, ALL options should be objectively discussed.

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
You know what? They may not have asked TWENTY-SEVEN years ago. Then again, it may have been that one place. We don't know. What I do know from the women I know who have had an abortion is that they do ask if this is the woman's own choice, and that counselling was given. Now, or then, a woman's boss cannot be in the room watching while she answers, and so the choice is still hers. Feeling like you are obligated to do something is not the same thing as being forced to do it, no matter how you spin it.
It's been determined by the APA that any emotional problems are pre-existing in these cases, or else the problems stem from societal censure and condemnation afterward. It's funny how so many people are willing to listen to this woman blame everyone but herself for this issue, and yet someone else would be told to stop whinning and take responsibility for their own actions.

I do agree with you that people need to step up to the plate and not pass blame for choices 'they made'. That I feel across the board..just that all people should take responsibility in life..to themselves, not necessarily to others for their choices.

Its not that she should pass the blame. My thoughts on it is...is what's she's asking..that there be counseling before the choice...to weed out and maybe have the ones who may be really 'choosing this',(themselves of course0, but under duress. If a counseling session could weed these patients into catagories, ones ready for the choice now...and ones who need time to weed out the pressure factor, it may still be a good concept and a good idea to provide for future patients.

And, it may also be a good concept to encourage counseling afterwards. And, even keep records at the clinics..so that when past patients complain...years later, documents can show...they did not pursue proper recommended advise. It'd be good to be capable of determining a 'politically used' person from a sincere one.

On abortion issues, we're al still dealing with caring for 'real people' and they need not get lost in the cracks of political debate. I don't think her case proves or disproves whether abortion should be legal or not. But, I don't think anythings wrong with seeing needs and tweeking the process.

lalalulu wrote:

<quoted text>
Exactly! I wouldn't be surprised if she sued her boss for "coercing" her.
I have no problem with counseling, but in this case 1) the counseling is too late, it should start BEFORE people become sexually active (good luck with that!), and 2) it is biased. The intent is to dissuade abortion, when, in fact, ALL options should be objectively discussed.

I agree, discussion and education should be happening in homes, schools, and religious education..real discussion and ed, not just a biased point of view...in either way. I don't think its wrong for people to state their view. And any view can be biased. But, it is wrong to not give all facts for both choices.

Also, those who really don't want to be pregnant need to be encouraged to begin their decision making and fact finding before....the very last moment it is legal to abort. They need to respect that it may not be a 'do it all in one day' type of thing. This is a big choice..its not a meal menu.

The process should not be determined by making it the easiest choice or the hardest choice, it should be determined by what's good medicine and best for each patients health.

We all need to determine what's good ethical political debate on health issues. So, politics doesn't hurt people's health. Politics can go too far and I don't want patients to feel like political pawns.

Batting Strong wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree, discussion and education should be happening in homes, schools, and religious education..real discussion and ed, not just a biased point of view...in either way. I don't think its wrong for people to state their view. And any view can be biased. But, it is wrong to not give all facts for both choices.
Also, those who really don't want to be pregnant need to be encouraged to begin their decision making and fact finding before....the very last moment it is legal to abort. They need to respect that it may not be a 'do it all in one day' type of thing. This is a big choice..its not a meal menu.
The process should not be determined by making it the easiest choice or the hardest choice, it should be determined by what's good medicine and best for each patients health.
We all need to determine what's good ethical political debate on health issues. So, politics doesn't hurt people's health. Politics can go too far and I don't want patients to feel like political pawns.

I agree with you on all points.

lalalulu wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree with you on all points.

Cool. So, as different as we all can be as people personally, we can find common ground! Maybe, this common ground is what we could all work to keep and find solutions with. Cool.

I have to run to town....Happy Holidays!

I'l likely be back on sometime, just not sure when since holidays are closing in again.

Batting Strong wrote:

<quoted text>
Cool. So, as different as we all can be as people personally, we can find common ground! Maybe, this common ground is what we could all work to keep and find solutions with. Cool.
I have to run to town....Happy Holidays!
I'l likely be back on sometime, just not sure when since holidays are closing in again.

Absolutely! A happy and a healthy to you and your family...
:)