Measuring The Economic and Social Damage

Things are beyond blame now, and there are no solutions that can possibly, mathematically or logically, reverse the damage of the Recession that is really a Depression.

All that is left to be done is count the bodies. Measure the present damage and the projected damage, and then face the "Then what?" question. It doesn't really matter who blames who, the damage is the damage leaving the question of what is to be done...here on out.

Pr Jonah wrote:

Things are beyond blame now, and there are no solutions that can possibly, mathematically or logically, reverse the damage of the Recession that is really a Depression.
All that is left to be done is count the bodies. Measure the present damage and the projected damage, and then face the "Then what?" question. It doesn't really matter who blames who, the damage is the damage leaving the question of what is to be done...here on out.

Welcome to the harsh reality of running out of other people's money, Jonah.

tip wrote:

<quoted text>
Welcome to the harsh reality of running out of other people's money, Jonah.

I am very interested in harsh reality.

Clearly there has been a divorce.

The projected effect is the ending of all government programs/policies that were attempted address of poverty.

So be it. Let the divorce decree be set in stone.

A divorce is a divorce, from both sides. After said divorce, neither side owes the other a single thing. Nothing.

While there will be no American solution to poverty...only expansion of it...only time will tell what is to become of a large divorced population in America that is not American. This happened also during the Roman occupation of Palestine. The Temple leadership and the Sanhedrin gave into the Romans corrupting themselves, hence a divorce between the elites and large pockets of disenfranchised ordinary Jews....in the Jordan Valley; in the TransJordan; in small enclaves in Jerusalem and environs....Bethany, the Mount of Olives, and Mt. Zion; most of all, in Southern Galilee. They had different names: Zealots, Nazoreans, Essenes, etc. with different leaders and agendas...but they all knew each other, and were conversant with each other. The thing they had in common, including John the Baptist's group and Jesus' group is that they all were divorced from the system. They were on their own....

...and much trouble they all caused.

By way of the crucifix, Rome thought it would destroy those Jews.

Those Jews took that crucifix to Rome, and destroyed Rome.

Pr Jonah wrote:

<quoted text>
...After said divorce, neither side owes the other a single thing...

Flawed analogy.

Certainly, in the absence of moral law, there are no obligations of any kind for anyone. But, no one is about to destroy moral law. As a matter of fact, since government-mandated dependency is immoral, its abolishment would be a step in the right -- and, in fact, biblical -- direction.

Take heart.

tip wrote:

<quoted text>
Flawed analogy.
Certainly, in the absence of moral law, there are no obligations of any kind for anyone. But, no one is about to destroy moral law. As a matter of fact, since government-mandated dependency is immoral, its abolishment would be a step in the right -- and, in fact, biblical -- direction.
Take heart.

Well, that was the theological dispute in first century Palestine as well. The corrupted religious/political elite Jewish establishment actually thought it could get away with being in bed with the Romans and hold moral authority at the same time. And despite what elitists always makes sense to them, the people disenfranchised said, "Well, no."

Some of the first century Jewish opposition groups were violent, and others not, or less so than the most violent. Jesus's group did one violent protest at the south end of the Temple courtyard. But, the thing all the opposition groups had in common was that they had dropped out of working with the system and gone their own way. This capacity and the memory of that capacity is in the Judeo-Christian dna. It lies largely dormant most of the time, but on occassion resurfaces...sometimes in crazy ways...like fundy preachers saying 9-11 was God's payback for homosexuals running amuck. As crazy as that is, for a moment, it rips back the veil that reveals that there is in the Judeo-Christian dna, an ancient disloyalty to western nationalism. Actually, anti-semites and neo-Nazis and libertarian atheists are more clear thinking about this than your average garden variety conservative who assume that the wild card of biblical religion can be controlled through alliances with conservative churches....assuming such religion will ALWAYS play ball, be predictable, and controlable.

But in the American Mad Max to come, large numbers of people going their own way, whether religious or secular, will be an uncontrollable and irreversible thing. You can't control what people think and do.

The thing I would point out is math. People need not achieve some kind of programatic 100% withdrawal of partipation to achieve great destruction upon their adversaries. The Judeo-Christian tradition ate Rome's guts out from inside over 3 centuries. Flipping to the example of how mainline liberal churches today have been brought to their knees....no only has congregations leaaving denominations hurt, but even more, the percentage of reduction of giving of those still in denominational churches has been devastating at reduction levels of 25-35%...that's been enough to be lethal. So, I'm not commenting here directly on the merits of conservative or liberal agendas, but rather the mathematical and historical reality than divorces happen, and people do go their own ways, never to return to relation...in all kinds of situations.

Consider prolonged reductions of police, firefighters, and public school teachers. Not only will there be social costs to that, but they will be permanent and irreversible.

Have you noticed the Highway Patrol incresingly cruising for business in rural areas far off from major state roads, small towns, and the outer fringes of metro areas? They are taking advantage of the reduction in staff in other departments...as they worry about their own jobs.

Don't know about all that history....but...four years ago people hadn't a clue what they gave rise to. Still don't have a clue. They'll just keep up the attack ads so as to avert the stupidnista gaze. Give the stain four more years of moving forward and all will be peachy. Things are great now aren't they???

Pr Jonah wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, that was the theological dispute in first century Palestine as well. The corrupted religious/political elite Jewish establishment actually thought it could get away with being in bed with the Romans and hold moral authority at the same time. And despite what elitists always makes sense to them, the people disenfranchised said, "Well, no."
Some of the first century Jewish opposition groups were violent, and others not, or less so than the most violent. Jesus's group did one violent protest at the south end of the Temple courtyard. But, the thing all the opposition groups had in common was that they had dropped out of working with the system and gone their own way. This capacity and the memory of that capacity is in the Judeo-Christian dna. It lies largely dormant most of the time, but on occassion resurfaces...sometimes in crazy ways...like fundy preachers saying 9-11 was God's payback for homosexuals running amuck. As crazy as that is, for a moment, it rips back the veil that reveals that there is in the Judeo-Christian dna, an ancient disloyalty to western nationalism. Actually, anti-semites and neo-Nazis and libertarian atheists are more clear thinking about this than your average garden variety conservative who assume that the wild card of biblical religion can be controlled through alliances with conservative churches....assuming such religion will ALWAYS play ball, be predictable, and controlable.
But in the American Mad Max to come, large numbers of people going their own way, whether religious or secular, will be an uncontrollable and irreversible thing. You can't control what people think and do.
The thing I would point out is math. People need not achieve some kind of programatic 100% withdrawal of partipation to achieve great destruction upon their adversaries. The Judeo-Christian tradition ate Rome's guts out from inside over 3 centuries. Flipping to the example of how mainline liberal churches today have been brought to their knees....no only has congregations leaaving denominations hurt, but even more, the percentage of reduction of giving of those still in denominational churches has been devastating at reduction levels of 25-35%...that's been enough to be lethal. So, I'm not commenting here directly on the merits of conservative or liberal agendas, but rather the mathematical and historical reality than divorces happen, and people do go their own ways, never to return to relation...in all kinds of situations.
Consider prolonged reductions of police, firefighters, and public school teachers. Not only will there be social costs to that, but they will be permanent and irreversible.
Have you noticed the Highway Patrol incresingly cruising for business in rural areas far off from major state roads, small towns, and the outer fringes of metro areas? They are taking advantage of the reduction in staff in other departments...as they worry about their own jobs.

Whew, that was a convoluted brain dump of epic proportion.

Believers' first allegiance is always to the Gospel.
The societal failures you lament are the direct result of spiritual poverty -- not material poverty.
And all the confiscated taxpayer money in the world will not cure such ills.

The liberal churches lost true believers when they embraced the state as their god and healer of these ills.

Woe to them.

Shanikwah wrote:

Don't know about all that history....but...four years ago people hadn't a clue what they gave rise to. Still don't have a clue. They'll just keep up the attack ads so as to avert the stupidnista gaze. Give the stain four more years of moving forward and all will be peachy. Things are great now aren't they???

The thought that Obama's story made a big difference one way or the other is punished by the dissafection in a blah manner of young people today who inhaled "hope" four years ago. Does this mean they will hope in anything else? No. They're doing the math now. They know they will be on their own, no matter what. Their high school classmates returned from the wars kill themselves 1 every 80 minutes. There are 8000 homeless vets in LA. There are 2000 housing vouchers for vets in LA.

WHAT SOSCIAL DAMAGE?------- Conspiracy of Silence: The Franklin Cover Up | Watch Free ...
1:39:00 to the end, a good watch. give him a chance. worthwhile….. Marvin. does
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tip wrote:

<quoted text>
Whew, that was a convoluted brain dump of epic proportion.
Believers' first allegiance is always to the Gospel.
The societal failures you lament are the direct result of spiritual poverty -- not material poverty.
And all the confiscated taxpayer money in the world will not cure such ills.
The liberal churches lost true believers when they embraced the state as their god and healer of these ills.
Woe to them.

First, I assure you that you are not a Christian. The etymology of the word "Christian" logically, and by direction of the Gospel necessarily requires that anyone in Christ is to bear the same election/appointment/chrism/an nointedness for the task of redemptive action via the Cross...see Bonhoeffer. But, that's still all beside the point of bare naked math. Poverty will explode. It doesn't matter what you blather as to cause. It just is and will be exponentially increased...which fact shall take on a life of its own....totally divorced from anything you blather.

The loss of liberal churches is just loss of cash. Neither the liberal elites in those churches nor the right wing they've lost are Christians. They are simply the two polar adversaries of a goddless western civilization. Neither have ANY intention of going to the Cross. BOTH want, epect,demand, and will kill for the economic status they assume is their divine right.

You SAY you love the troops, but you don't in deed.

Talk is cheap.

And the deeds of societal destruction are already done. There is no fix.

tip wrote:

<quoted text>
Welcome to the harsh reality of running out of other people's money, Jonah.

Running out of OPM? Man, wise up! Do you see any money shortages from all those people sending millions to Romney's warchest? These leeches can suck the wealth out of America, then have goofy people like you post some idiotic "right-wing" talking point about running out of money! Are you retarded or just plain stupid and blinded by your hatred of a black President? You explain to Topix how these people can afford a $30k plate fund raiser, and be out of money? You people are the most ignorant, foolish, brainwashed group I have ever come across, and you all pride yourselves on being educated? You have no common sense! You're being played and used by a bunch of mega rich political gangsters, and you're too stupid hating on poor blacks and whites to see the game being played on you. It's called "bait & switch", you lemming.

Pr Jonah wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, that was the theological dispute in first century Palestine as well. The corrupted religious/political elite Jewish establishment actually thought it could get away with being in bed with the Romans and hold moral authority at the same time. And despite what elitists always makes sense to them, the people disenfranchised said, "Well, no."
Some of the first century Jewish opposition groups were violent, and others not, or less so than the most violent. Jesus's group did one violent protest at the south end of the Temple courtyard. But, the thing all the opposition groups had in common was that they had dropped out of working with the system and gone their own way. This capacity and the memory of that capacity is in the Judeo-Christian dna. It lies largely dormant most of the time, but on occassion resurfaces...sometimes in crazy ways...like fundy preachers saying 9-11 was God's payback for homosexuals running amuck. As crazy as that is, for a moment, it rips back the veil that reveals that there is in the Judeo-Christian dna, an ancient disloyalty to western nationalism. Actually, anti-semites and neo-Nazis and libertarian atheists are more clear thinking about this than your average garden variety conservative who assume that the wild card of biblical religion can be controlled through alliances with conservative churches....assuming such religion will ALWAYS play ball, be predictable, and controlable.
But in the American Mad Max to come, large numbers of people going their own way, whether religious or secular, will be an uncontrollable and irreversible thing. You can't control what people think and do.
The thing I would point out is math. People need not achieve some kind of programatic 100% withdrawal of partipation to achieve great destruction upon their adversaries. The Judeo-Christian tradition ate Rome's guts out from inside over 3 centuries. Flipping to the example of how mainline liberal churches today have been brought to their knees....no only has congregations leaaving denominations hurt, but even more, the percentage of reduction of giving of those still in denominational churches has been devastating at reduction levels of 25-35%...that's been enough to be lethal. So, I'm not commenting here directly on the merits of conservative or liberal agendas, but rather the mathematical and historical reality than divorces happen, and people do go their own ways, never to return to relation...in all kinds of situations.
Consider prolonged reductions of police, firefighters, and public school teachers. Not only will there be social costs to that, but they will be permanent and irreversible.
Have you noticed the Highway Patrol incresingly cruising for business in rural areas far off from major state roads, small towns, and the outer fringes of metro areas? They are taking advantage of the reduction in staff in other departments...as they worry about their own jobs.

Jonah, most of these posters are so rigid to their ideology base thought, that any attempt to awaken them from the spell is futile! Your analogy of ancient times and how that will mirror what will happen to Western civilization in the near future is spot on! Morality in politics and civil life is slowly fading away, as in the case of the lifeguard who saved a drowning man, and was fired due to insurance liability. This country is going to burn because greed, immorality, selfishness, callousness is the rules of this age.

WiseAmerican wrote:

<quoted text>Running out of OPM? Man, wise up! Do you see any money shortages from all those people sending millions to Romney's warchest? These leeches can suck the wealth out of America, then have goofy people like you post some idiotic "right-wing" talking point about running out of money! Are you retarded or just plain stupid and blinded by your hatred of a black President? You explain to Topix how these people can afford a $30k plate fund raiser, and be out of money? You people are the most ignorant, foolish, brainwashed group I have ever come across, and you all pride yourselves on being educated? You have no common sense! You're being played and used by a bunch of mega rich political gangsters, and you're too stupid hating on poor blacks and whites to see the game being played on you. It's called "bait & switch", you lemming.

Okay, deep breath for you please, I don't need you to stroke out.

$30,000 per plate dinner ridiculous; allowing people, black, white, green, to sit on their a$$ on my dime equally disgusting.

You could use some common sense yourself.

WiseAmerican wrote:

<quoted text>Running out of OPM? Man, wise up! Do you see any money shortages from all those people sending millions to Romney's warchest? These leeches can suck the wealth out of America, then have goofy people like you post some idiotic "right-wing" talking point about running out of money! Are you retarded or just plain stupid and blinded by your hatred of a black President? You explain to Topix how these people can afford a $30k plate fund raiser, and be out of money? You people are the most ignorant, foolish, brainwashed group I have ever come across, and you all pride yourselves on being educated? You have no common sense! You're being played and used by a bunch of mega rich political gangsters, and you're too stupid hating on poor blacks and whites to see the game being played on you. It's called "bait & switch", you lemming.

Silly black man...

"But the Hollywood VIPs paying $40,000 a ticket will account for just over one-third of Obama's haul Thursday night; the rest is coming from members of the general public lured by an online contest that has astutely leveraged Clooney and Obama's joint star power."
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/10/enter...

The president will first address a group of 100 guests, each paying $5,000 a plate. He then will meet privately with two small roundtables of deep-pocket supporters – one group paying $40,000 per person; the other $50,000 per person, a campaign official said.(The $50k ticket price is the largest for any Obama fundraiser held since the start of the campaign.)
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/...

Hamilton “Tony” James — the president of the Blackstone Group, the nation’s largest private equity firm — is hosting a $35,800-a-head dinner for Obama, with 60 Democratic allies expected to attend, according to a campaign official. Many in attendance are expected to have ties to the private equity sector.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/...

So tell us Rastus...why is Blackstone good but Bain is bad? Why is Tony Hamilton a good businessman but Romney is a vulture villain?

Leftists...to arrogant and stupid to know what hypocrisy is.

Shanikwah wrote:

Don't know about all that history....but...four years ago people hadn't a clue what they gave rise to. Still don't have a clue. They'll just keep up the attack ads so as to avert the stupidnista gaze. Give the stain four more years of moving forward and all will be peachy. Things are great now aren't they???

Because you are grossly ignorant of history, the holy bible, and politics, it's no wonder you don't have a freakin clue. The last 30+ years, starting with Reagan, have been the decline of American exceptionalism. Clinton screwed us over with NAFTA. Companies who out-sourced profitted, the average joe six-back got nothing but a pink slip. If you really believe that politicians working only for the bottom line of CEO's and shareholders, as is Mitt's wholehearted belief, and if YOU are not a millionaire by now, chances are you won't be. Having said that, keep voting against your own pocket you fool, and you'll get what you justly deserve.

tip wrote:

<quoted text>
Whew, that was a convoluted brain dump of epic proportion.
Believers' first allegiance is always to the Gospel.
The societal failures you lament are the direct result of spiritual poverty -- not material poverty.
And all the confiscated taxpayer money in the world will not cure such ills.
The liberal churches lost true believers when they embraced the state as their god and healer of these ills.
Woe to them.

The so-called liberal church members found themselves UNEMPLOYED you dummy, because of the lay-offs and job losses after 911 and 8 years of Bush's fiscal and foriegn policies! Why can't you people see this?? The deregulation of the financial sector destroyed the GLOBAL financial system when countries bought those JUNK BONDS that OUR financial institutions packaged and sold them!! Credit swaps, and leveraging, subprime lending and raising the mortgages 35% after a year. SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE IN PRISON FOR THIS!

Pr Jonah wrote:

Things are beyond blame now, and there are no solutions that can possibly, mathematically or logically, reverse the damage of the Recession that is really a Depression.
All that is left to be done is count the bodies. Measure the present damage and the projected damage, and then face the "Then what?" question. It doesn't really matter who blames who, the damage is the damage leaving the question of what is to be done...here on out.

When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.

Pr Jonah wrote:

<quoted text>
First, I assure you that you are not a Christian. The etymology of the word "Christian" logically, and by direction of the Gospel necessarily requires that anyone in Christ is to bear the same election/appointment/chrism/an nointedness for the task of redemptive action via the Cross...see Bonhoeffer. But, that's still all beside the point of bare naked math. Poverty will explode. It doesn't matter what you blather as to cause. It just is and will be exponentially increased...which fact shall take on a life of its own....totally divorced from anything you blather.
The loss of liberal churches is just loss of cash. Neither the liberal elites in those churches nor the right wing they've lost are Christians. They are simply the two polar adversaries of a goddless western civilization. Neither have ANY intention of going to the Cross. BOTH want, epect,demand, and will kill for the economic status they assume is their divine right.
You SAY you love the troops, but you don't in deed.
Talk is cheap.
And the deeds of societal destruction are already done. There is no fix.

So, the Gospel -- God's only solution for redeeming mankind from his sin and separation from God -- has been reduced by Progressives to a state-mandated plan to ensure everyone has enough to eat; more specifically, that no one has too much (however the state defines "too much"). In other words, Progressives contend that Jesus came to suffer and die for the sole purpose that...no one would miss a meal. Yes, that's it! Three meals a day for all mankind and Jesus' kingdom will be ushered in here on Earth!

Sadly, this unbiblical social gospel is no Gospel at all. In fact, Paul rebuked those who twisted the Gospel in such a manner:

"Many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ..." -- Phil. 3:18-20

Pr Jonah wrote:

<quoted text>
First, I assure you that you are not a Christian.

Do you fancy yourself God Himself to make such a pronouncement?
Interesting that you judge none as Christians who do not willingly sacrifice their personal liberties for the collective good, as defined and enforced by a tyrannical state.

There is no liberty in coercion, Jonah.
And the Gospel is free from coercion.
God is sovereign. You are not.

tip wrote:

<quoted text>
So, the Gospel -- God's only solution for redeeming mankind from his sin and separation from God -- has been reduced by Progressives to a state-mandated plan to ensure everyone has enough to eat; more specifically, that no one has too much (however the state defines "too much"). In other words, Progressives contend that Jesus came to suffer and die for the sole purpose that...no one would miss a meal. Yes, that's it! Three meals a day for all mankind and Jesus' kingdom will be ushered in here on Earth!
Sadly, this unbiblical social gospel is no Gospel at all. In fact, Paul rebuked those who twisted the Gospel in such a manner:
"Many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ..." -- Phil. 3:18-20

Three meals a day, shelter, health care, cell phones, transit passes, utilities, pocket money (used for booze, smokes, casino visits, manicures)...