Citizens watchdog groups going to school | The Columbus Dispatch

My life as a teacher is nothing like you describe. I'm tired of uninformed people like you bashing the profession I dearly love. Spend a day with a teacher, if you dare, then you can apologize for your ignorance.

Lucy wrote:

So, Paul Lambert, don't con us with your "heart to heath" with your insight into the woes of your profession.

Um, not sure where that comment is coming from. My profession is engineering, and my last job title (before retiring) was VP/Chief Technology Officer of a large division of a global company.

By the way, I have many Indian and Chinese colleagues, and you are correct that they received outstanding primary/secondary educations with very few resources (as for myself, calculations were done on a slide rule when I was in college - still got the same answers as later students who had calculators).

However, in their societies, as in many in the world, kids are sorted out early in their life into college material vs everything else. Why? Because these countries just don't have the resources to try to jam every kid through Calculus regardless of interest and aptitude. In many countries, seats in the college prep high schools are limited, and kids have to compete for them.

While much is made of the millions of engineers produced by India and China (many of whom get their education here), and the test scores of the kids in their high schools, no one really talks about the millions of kids in those countries who are denied the opportunity to go to school at all - just because they were born into poverty.

You can bet that the little kid from the nomadic tribes of the Chinese western frontier can't pass any of our standardized tests. Nor can the Indian kids dragged by their families to the beaches of Alang to help scrap ships for enough money to eat.

Our education system is indeed in jeopardy, but mostly because decades of self-serving manipulation by special interest groups (including the teachers' unions) has turned it into a resource thirsty engine designed more to benefit the adults in the system than the kids.

Here's a piece I wrote a few years ago about what I would like to see happen:

http://savethehilliardschools.blogspot.com/20...

put the teachers on a pay for performance program. no guaranteed raises.

Lucy wrote:

How hard could the course of study be to be qualified to teach five year olds. Why do we need to have all day kindergarden?

One of the benefits of retirement is that I get to spend time doing things that fill the soul rather than the wallet. One of those is serving as a reading tutor to an inner-city third grader who can barely read. He is so far behind that I was stumped how to help him figure out to sound out words like "saw."

So I consulted a newly-retired K-5 teacher friend, and she gave me some very useful coaching on methods to get through to this kid. Guess what - they are working! Ever hear of "Dolch Sight Words?" I hadn't. How about the repetoire of little memory versus that help teach kids vowel pronounciation rules? Or the thousands of other pedagogical techniques developed through decades of research and experience?

I recognize teaching as a profession, but do not accept that all teachers are professionals. My friend certain is. Observing my daughter, a music teacher, I believe she is as well. But we all, teachers and non-teachers alike, know there are a fair number of duds in the education system. We can no longer afford this.

As is the case with other professions, those not compentent have to be weeded out to make room for those who are. This must especially be the case when we're talking about a unionized profession in a highly controlled industry - where the customers have very limited choice as to who is providing the service.

Thinker wrote:

put the teachers on a pay for performance program. no guaranteed raises.

Please describe your "pay for perfomance" program.

What do you mean by performance?
Who does the measuring?
What is measured?

Wilson wrote:

<quoted text>
Please describe your "pay for perfomance" program.
What do you mean by performance?
Who does the measuring?
What is measured?

Please show us your hand as well:

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as an ineffective teacher?
2. If so, how do you go about determining that a teacher is ineffective, and what should be done about it?
3. Is it possible for a teacher with less education and experience to be more effective that a teacher with more education and experience?

4. Should there be a differentiation in reward between more effective and less effective teachers, and if so, what form should that reward take (higher pay, dicretionary budget, paid time for sabbaticals, etc)?

Don't just object to everything we suggest, please suggest alternatives.

Paul Lambert wrote:

<quoted text>
Please show us your hand as well:
1. Do you believe there is such a thing as an ineffective teacher?
2. If so, how do you go about determining that a teacher is ineffective, and what should be done about it?
3. Is it possible for a teacher with less education and experience to be more effective that a teacher with more education and experience?
4. Should there be a differentiation in reward between more effective and less effective teachers, and if so, what form should that reward take (higher pay, dicretionary budget, paid time for sabbaticals, etc)?
Don't just object to everything we suggest, please suggest alternatives.

yes there are bad teachers,however sorting the pile is harder than just looking at some standardized test score.for example if a class is not doing well in history,is it because of a bad history teacher or are the kids unable to read the history book with a corresponding level of comprehension?

I would like to know why they say that it is illegal for the schools to tax our propertys to fund the school system. My BIGGEST portion of my property tax bill goes to talawanda school and more is heading that way. Why is it legal for college students to vote on our school levies, really anything that comes back on the property owners in the school district. We have to pay the taxes and all they have to do is wave good bye at the end of thier school year.I like to know how we as property owners can stop the school board from taxing us to death.

Pat Irwin wrote:

I would like to know why they say that it is illegal for the schools to tax our propertys to fund the school system. My BIGGEST portion of my property tax bill goes to talawanda school and more is heading that way. Why is it legal for college students to vote on our school levies, really anything that comes back on the property owners in the school district. We have to pay the taxes and all they have to do is wave good bye at the end of thier school year.I like to know how we as property owners can stop the school board from taxing us to death.

the current school funding system was ruled unconstitutional and that the state legislature was told to come up with a new system.call your state rep and state sen and ask hy they haven't

Paul Lambert wrote:

<quoted text>
Please show us your hand as well:
1. Do you believe there is such a thing as an ineffective teacher?
2. If so, how do you go about determining that a teacher is ineffective, and what should be done about it?
3. Is it possible for a teacher with less education and experience to be more effective that a teacher with more education and experience?
4. Should there be a differentiation in reward between more effective and less effective teachers, and if so, what form should that reward take (higher pay, dicretionary budget, paid time for sabbaticals, etc)?
Don't just object to everything we suggest, please suggest alternatives.

I am not objecting to a performance based system. Perfomance based compensation works well in certain situations where objective measures exist; sales, for example. Many other jobs are far less objective in nature and it is difficult to determine what to measure and how to measure it.

As I recall, you do not have a suggestion for solving this puzzle either. If you get elected to the Hilliard School Board, you will be one of the people responsibe for designing and approving such a system assuming the idea is accepted.

There IS a way to measure teacher performance by way of student performance. We've been doing this for the past 15 years at our school district. One must be objective in utilizing the reporting system which must be based on standardized, nationally normed tests, and NOT state tests which measure the educational outcomes of our state curriculum.

We've had classes of students who were "at level" in third grade being four years ahead of grade level by eighth grade on a consistant basis. By senior year, 85% are taking their college boards and performing, as a group, in the 70th percentile of college bound students. Over half the graduates are scholarship recipients, and this is in a rural area. The district also has moved to excellent with distinction status. The evidence is in place and it can be done, but everyone must be accepting of the study results and not "throw stones" at each other.

To all the experts....What should teachers pay look like?

Pat Irwin wrote:

I would like to know why they say that it is illegal for the schools to tax our propertys to fund the school system. My BIGGEST portion of my property tax bill goes to talawanda school and more is heading that way. Why is it legal for college students to vote on our school levies, really anything that comes back on the property owners in the school district. We have to pay the taxes and all they have to do is wave good bye at the end of thier school year.I like to know how we as property owners can stop the school board from taxing us to death.

Very few people understand what the Supreme Court actually had to say about property taxes. First of all, they never said they were illegal or every that they were an invalid way to generate part of the funding for Ohio's schools. In fact the Court said that property taxes are one of most stable funding sources available for schools. Notice how any government depending on income or sales taxes is in a fiscal mess right now.

What the Supreme Court actually said was that some school district has property values so low that it would require local property owners to tax themselves unreasonably and excessively to raise enough money to operate their school system to the "thorough and efficient" standard of the Ohio Constitution.

In other words, the State of Ohio had to figure out a way to send more State money to the districts with the poorest land values per student. And to a great degree, they have. And they've pulled it off by freezing the funding to affluent districts, like Hilliard, Worthington, Dublin, et al.

A couple of years ago, a teachers' union backed group called "Getting It Right for Ohio's Future" tried to get a constitutional amendment on the ballot. That amendment required property taxes in all districts, however the minimum local property tax was lowered somewhat, and the State funding increased dramatically. It failed because even pro-education Gov Strickland didn't like it (frankly because it took power from the Governor).

The Governor's own plan - based on his so-called Evidence Based Model - still uses property taxes as a substantial revenue source.

Property taxes are here to stay. There question for Ohioans is whether you want to keep local control of school funding, or turn the control over to the State government.

Stupid Teacher wrote:

To all the experts....What should teachers pay look like?

Notice that use the word "reward system," not "pay."

The key to an effective reward system is to give the person a chance to earn something they actually want. Without question, for some people, it is money. But that's always the case.

I accept that people don't go into teaching for the money. While it might up being a well paid vocation with excellent retirement benefits, it takes a while to get there. So why do they go into teaching.

I certainly don't know. I was never interested in being a teacher - engineering, and later business, were my interests. So was being a part of something bigger than me, and the comraderie of achievement as a team. And I enjoyed a great deal of autonomy. All good things in my book. In other words, I had the good forture to work for a company, and for bosses, who gave me the opportunities to have an absolute blast in my career.

But that's me. What motivates a teacher? How do you figure out who deserves to be rewarded, and who should be fired? What form should a reward take?

It seems to me that by unionizing, the teachers become a little like a bipolar person on meds. Both the highs and lows are suppressed, and you kinda live in the middle. That seems awful. Great teachers can't get rewarded because the rules say you have to give equal pay to the duds.

I don't know the answer. But I believe the question is valid. I'd like your help in solving it.

toby wrote:

<quoted text>
I am not objecting to a performance based system. Perfomance based compensation works well in certain situations where objective measures exist; sales, for example. Many other jobs are far less objective in nature and it is difficult to determine what to measure and how to measure it.
As I recall, you do not have a suggestion for solving this puzzle either. If you get elected to the Hilliard School Board, you will be one of the people responsibe for designing and approving such a system assuming the idea is accepted.

It comes down to this. Is there such a thing as a highly effective teacher. Does such a teacher deserve to be rewarded? Likewise, is there such a thing as an ineffective teacher, who should be first coached, and then if there is no improvement, terminated?

In private industry, our customers rated our performance by choosing whether or not to buy our product, and that made that decision using criteria not under my control. If I was to be rewarded, it wasn't because the customer evaluated how well I did my job - that was measure by my colleagues, who were experts in my field - the customer evaluated how well I served HIS need.

Teacher effectiveness should be measured by a system created by education experts, and monitored by school board savvy enough to know if the system is being gamed.

Old Timer wrote:

There IS a way to measure teacher performance by way of student performance. We've been doing this for the past 15 years at our school district. One must be objective in utilizing the reporting system which must be based on standardized, nationally normed tests, and NOT state tests which measure the educational outcomes of our state curriculum.
We've had classes of students who were "at level" in third grade being four years ahead of grade level by eighth grade on a consistant basis. By senior year, 85% are taking their college boards and performing, as a group, in the 70th percentile of college bound students. Over half the graduates are scholarship recipients, and this is in a rural area. The district also has moved to excellent with distinction status. The evidence is in place and it can be done, but everyone must be accepting of the study results and not "throw stones" at each other.

Thanks for sharing the success story. This is clearly a solvable problem if the parties truly want to find a solution. We're still stuck in the mode of fear and distrust. That's the first thing to be worked on.

Paul Lambert wrote:

<quoted text>The key to an effective reward system is to give the person a chance to earn something they actually want. Without question, for some people, it is money. But that's always the case.

This should have read "But that's NOT always the case."

Sorry for the typo.

Old Timer wrote:

There IS a way to measure teacher performance by way of student performance. We've been doing this for the past 15 years at our school district. One must be objective in utilizing the reporting system which must be based on standardized, nationally normed tests, and NOT state tests which measure the educational outcomes of our state curriculum.
We've had classes of students who were "at level" in third grade being four years ahead of grade level by eighth grade on a consistant basis. By senior year, 85% are taking their college boards and performing, as a group, in the 70th percentile of college bound students. Over half the graduates are scholarship recipients, and this is in a rural area. The district also has moved to excellent with distinction status. The evidence is in place and it can be done, but everyone must be accepting of the study results and not "throw stones" at each other.

Please share the name and location of this school district.

Toby,
The Ohio School Board's October Journal did a story on this school and was kind enough to make it their cover story. Hopefully you'll get a chance to find one of the copies and read it.