Citizens watchdog groups going to school | The Columbus Dispatch

If the State Of Ohio doesn't do what is needed to stop the levies and fund school in some other manner we will further see the State of Ohio lose jobs and homes values decline.
The term "fix" is the wrong one to use because it leads people to believe that there will be a magic wand waved and property taxes will go downwhen facts don't support that at all.
In order for Ohio to change the ways schools are funded you will pay higher taxes and likely much higher taxes in other ways. Higher income taxes and a much higher sales taxes. Plus the state will raise fees paid for license plates, professional licenses, tags for your car, etc etc etc.
Tha ways the state can and will get the money from YOU are almost unlimited

put some of these "watchdog" efforts into protecting our Kids while they are in school !

It is time to retool our public school systems. Columbus schools have a total budget of $1.5 Billion dollars this year if you include all expenses. And an enrollment of 55,000. That works out to $27,000 per student.

Columbus Academy, a private school in Gahanna, has a 100 percent college acceptance rate and is one of the best schools in the Columbus region. Annual tuition is $18,750.

Perhaps it is time to contract ALL of our public education out to private institutions.

they are watching us all, boo!

The people running education have different ways of telling the public that they are too dumb to understand school funding. The common people are dealing with income cuts and dealing with it, they think educators shoud do the same. The most disgusting comment from teachers/administrators is they aren't going to take a pay cut because they are educated professionals.

the state has failed miserably. someone up above stated it best, if the levies dont pass, eventually the state will take over and raise taxes again, and again, and again. it will eventually become what obama wants, give me your paycheck and i will return to you what is needed to live on. sounds crazy huh? look back 70 years and you will find your answers. i do have to give him/them credit though, they are working it in ways where people think they are getting help like insurance expenses that will double over the next few years if this law is passed.

Twenty five years ago, a no name hillbilly public school from West Virginia was invited to particpate in the Ohio High School Academic Games sponsored by JETS ( Junior Engineering Technology Society. Then Governor Dick Celeste also invited Kentucky, Michigan, and Indiana's state academic champs to compete. Much to everyone's surprise, Brooke High School of Wellsburgh, West Virginia won huge. Was this a fluke? The following year the West Virginia school was invited back and not only did they win the championship again, but the runner up was Brooke's alternate team. This was in a field of over two hundred schools. The Ohio State legislature was pressured to look into how a public hick school from West Virginia was so superior academically. The Columbus Dispatch and Cleveland Plain Dealer, and Youngstown Vendicator all runs articles. Ohio athletes at the time could play with a .67 GPA or D- then compared to West Virginia's 2.o GPA. Like Purdue's 6.0 GPA versus OSU 2.0 GPA. The Gilmore Schraff Legislative Task State Commission found that Ohio lacked in mnay areas. Ohio has came a long way since then and is lightyears ahead academically today with the School Performance Report Card System where it forces the schools to compete and report thier overall progress. Ohio is always getting better with the exception of the inner cities due more towards culture than educational opportunities.

"I want free public education that is the best in the world." You get what you pay for. A public school takes all students that arrive at their door from one end of the spectrum to the other, just like Medicare. Private schools can pick and choose, still receive subsidies ( transportation from public school sources in most cases to mention one) and operate without many restrictions government (of the people) place on public schools.

Those who want to dismantle public education are the same ones that realize that capitalism requires an underclass that is willing to subsist in order to serve the wealthy upperclass. Public education can use many improvements but to throw out the baby with the bath water is not a good idea. Hold your elected representatives accountable and enforce the state supreme court's multiple decisions that current funding is not constitutional. Complain to them instead of your local boards of education trying to make the best from a very bad situation in difficult economic conditions.

Why wrote:

Hold your elected representatives accountable and enforce the state supreme court's multiple decisions that current funding is not constitutional. Complain to them instead of your local boards of education trying to make the best from a very bad situation in difficult economic conditions.

Once again, the Ohio Supreme Court never said that funding through property taxes was unconstitutional, only that it results in unequal outcomes. Since then, the state has pumped billions into K-12 education.

This has nothing to do with the article, though. If you are against watchdog groups, you have to be in favor of blank checks for education expenses or, putting this another way, paying education employees anything they want because after all, it's for the kids. The education establishment has no shame in hiding behind kids to justify their raises and belittling anyone who dares to question why a second grade teacher is worth a hundred thousand dollars a year.

Lest anyone miss the point. Pay 'em less. They'll still have a job to go to and one more thing to talk about. Include it in the curriculum.

One More Time wrote:

<quoted text>
Once again, the Ohio Supreme Court never said that funding through property taxes was unconstitutional, only that it results in unequal outcomes. Since then, the state has pumped billions into K-12 education.

Actually, the Supreme Court said that the problem is that some districts have very low per-student property values, and therefore the tax rates people in whose districts would have to bear to fund schools to the Constitutional standard of "thorough and efficient" would be unreasonable.

There are over 600 school districts in Ohio, and 10 of the 16 districts in Franklin County are in top half in terms of per-student property values. You are correct that the State of Ohio has been redirecting funding from more affluent to the less affluent districts in order to meet the mandate of the Ohio Constitution.

Neither the Ohio Supreme Court, the Governor, nor the General Assembly have any objections to telling the more affluent districts to use local property and income taxes to fund programming which is of breadth or quality in excess of the 'thorough and effecient' standard. In fact, they expect this to be the case.

Ohio's school districts are filing their semiannual Five Year Forecasts with the Ohio Department of Education right now. Many of the central Ohio districts post their Five Year Forecast on their websites. I encourage each citizen to examine your District's Five Year Forecast and make suggestions how to balance the budget over the next five years with minimal additional funding from the State.

There are only two big knobs to turn: Compensation/Benefits and Tax Levies. Nothing else is significant. If compensation and benefits go up, tax levies will have to be passed to fund the increase. You can't balance the budget with more efficient tranportation systems, cheaper copier paper, or even by cutting all extracurricular activities. Schools are professional services organizations, and eventually we'll have to deal with personnel costs. I believe that time is now.

The EducateHilliard.org team is not demanding pay cuts or layoffs - just a recalibration of the rate of increase of personnel cost to be in line with what most of us are experiencing in the private sector. Our communities have been generous during the boom years. All we ask is for the teachers, staff and administrators to ease up on their compensation demands while times are tough.

Paul Lambert
EducateHilliard.org

ps - I am not the leader of EducateHilliard.org - we are a team working together to preserve our Excellent (with Distinction) schools via sustainable economics.

The US spends more on public education than any other nation in the world and we get minimual results. It's the educrats that are demanding more money. The taxpayers are paying enough already. What we need is some accountability with the spending of our tax dollars.

One More Time wrote:

<quoted text>
Once again, the Ohio Supreme Court never said that funding through property taxes was unconstitutional, only that it results in unequal outcomes. Since then, the state has pumped billions into K-12 education.
This has nothing to do with the article, though. If you are against watchdog groups, you have to be in favor of blank checks for education expenses or, putting this another way, paying education employees anything they want because after all, it's for the kids. The education establishment has no shame in hiding behind kids to justify their raises and belittling anyone who dares to question why a second grade teacher is worth a hundred thousand dollars a year.

1 I never said anything about property tax- you did;

2 Find me a teacher making $100,000 dollars/year; you are making up a lot of bunk to serve some purpose- I guess to belittle education in general and second grade teachers in particular- maybe you are one who needs that underclass to serve you...

Rick wrote:

It is time to retool our public school systems. Columbus schools have a total budget of $1.5 Billion dollars this year if you include all expenses. And an enrollment of 55,000. That works out to $27,000 per student.
Columbus Academy, a private school in Gahanna, has a 100 percent college acceptance rate and is one of the best schools in the Columbus region. Annual tuition is $18,750.
Perhaps it is time to contract ALL of our public education out to private institutions.

Right...because the needs of students in Columbus City Schools are the same as those at Columbus Academy. NOT. Public schools will always have to spend more money per student because they are dealing with a population of students that have far greater needs in terms of intervention, social services, staff development, special education services, etc. You obviously know nothing about urban education.

Jonathan wrote:

Lest anyone miss the point. Pay 'em less. They'll still have a job to go to and one more thing to talk about. Include it in the curriculum.

lest anyone miss another point.they are under a contract negotiated with the board.the board can't arbitrarily cut pay anymore than teachers can give themselves raises.but if you want half pay teachers don't complain when you get half pay results.

One correction that would fix it all:

Eliminate collective bargaining !

If you take away the thugs that demand 2-3 times the inflation rate, you never would need a levy. Obama's own figures this week said inflation was flat. So why are virtually every Ohio district payrolls rising at 6-9% EVERY SINGLE YEAR ?? Answer: Raises plus step increases plus 14% retirement on top of the raises. It is an unsustainable spending formula. We need a new Supreme Court case that determines rising school salaries cannot be sustained.

Why wrote:

<quoted text>
1 I never said anything about property tax- you did;
2 Find me a teacher making $100,000 dollars/year; you are making up a lot of bunk to serve some purpose- I guess to belittle education in general and second grade teachers in particular- maybe you are one who needs that underclass to serve you...

A teacher at the top of the pay scale in Worthington makes $92K/year. The taxpayer kicks in another $13K for guaranteed retirement and another $11K for health care. That comes out to $116K/year. Other districts would be similar and some would even be higher. You can argue that the second grade teacher is worth it, but don't argue about what the words in the contract say. All Dispatch readers are invited to witness the display of scorn heaped upon me for just pointing out what the teachers make, as if the slightest mention of costs makes you anti-teacher, anti-kid or anti-education.

Why wrote:

2 Find me a teacher making $100,000 dollars/year; you are making up a lot of bunk to serve some purpose

The top of the pay scale for Upper Arlington is now very close to $100,000 for a teacher with a PhD and 30 years of experience. For Hilliard teachers, the top is $90,000, but this requires less service and education (23 years and a Masters+15 hours of study).

Some include benefits in the cost of employing teachers. That's fair, but only if the comparison to other jobs is made with the cost of benefits included as well. An all-in comparison would have to estimate the value of retirement benefits as well. For example, private sector worker may be paid more than teachers, but have to fund their retirement with Social Security plus their own savings. Teachers don't receive Social Security, but have a defined benefit pension plan that in many cases will provide much higher retirement income that a private sector worker's savings will generate.

Comparing teacher compensation to that of other professions, or even between districts, is an exercise in frustration. Any such comparison requires assertions to be made relative to days/hours worked, job difficulty, education required, and a myriad of other factors, and those assertions are subject to opinion and challenge (some of those opinions are even well thought out).

In these times of high economic stress, we must have a respectful but open dialog about the compensation teachers desire vs the taxation citizens are willing to bear. There is no right answer - only the result of a negotiation.

The hope of the EducateHilliard.org team is that this discussion and negotiation can be a one between groups who are informed and empathetic.

The constant spewing of ignorance we see in so many of these school funding discussions will get us nowhere except disfunctional school systems and failed communities.

If we want to teach the kids something, let's show them how democracy is supposed to work: Informed and passionate citizens respectfull debating opposing viewpoints, and finding a solution that all can live with.

Hint: it doesn't look like an episode of Jerry Springer.

Paul Lambert wrote:

<quoted text>
The top of the pay scale for Upper Arlington is now very close to $100,000 for a teacher with a PhD and 30 years of experience. For Hilliard teachers, the top is $90,000, but this requires less service and education (23 years and a Masters+15 hours of study).

The important point is HOW MANY teachers are actually making that amount. How many UA teachers have a Phd plus 30 years how many Hilliard teachers have 23 years in plus a Masters and so on.

Teacher friends of mine I've talked to is some hold up advancing their education because they don't want to price themselves out of the market should they need to find another job. Usually if someone with a Masters and 10 or 15 years of service tries to change districts the new district has to pay them for that service time whatever the cost is for that district. Some districts would rather hire a newby teacher fresh out of school than a veteran with 10 or 15 years service in the bank.

Some other teachers take the increased education route to its conclusion getting a Phd and moving into administration that can pay in the 6 figures but they don't teach in a classroom any more.

Teaching pay is one area that can be tweaked but since it is based on a contract you can't do it easily and it takes both sides to agree to it.

I thought Ohio was broke? What did they do with the tax revenues they have received? Most states have no tax on food,and many states no income tax.Guess they squander it.