Biodiesel refinery planned for Fulton Co.

Good for Fulton county. Now let the bickering begin.

Does biodiesel increase polution as much as ethanol does. I read a story yesterday that stated the amount of polution created in the refining process to make ethanol actually increased the total polution output by 50%. Any experts out there to enlighten me or are we, as usual, at the mercy of the petro-liars. Please, somebody with real smarts, weigh in.

I hope it doesn't increase pollution (though I don't think it does) because I would hate it lake Manitou were to get worse... I love visiting my grandparents there. And I agree it could be a good boost for the county!

confused wrote:

Does biodiesel increase polution as much as ethanol does. I read a story yesterday that stated the amount of polution created in the refining process to make ethanol actually increased the total polution output by 50%. Any experts out there to enlighten me or are we, as usual, at the mercy of the petro-liars. Please, somebody with real smarts, weigh in.

I am not an expert, but most biodiesel currently produced comes from soybeans. Since there is so much fossil fuel input into growing soybeans, I don't see how this can be a solution to replacing oil.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3285

Odd. Folks in Fulton County seem to be missing the point here. Which is LAND USE.

Let's assume that what this incomplete article is telling us is that these areas are being re-zoned from agricultural to industrial. So let's ask the question: WHY are these refineries being allowed to be built willy-nilly, for no good reason, in agricultural areas? That's been the pattern so far. Apparently, these clueless gits think "we're making fuel out of crops, therefore, we should buy a bunch of farmland, in the middle of an ag area, and build a refinery there." Let's look at the illogic of this trend:

1. They destroy farmland to build a facility dependent on crops;

2. There are existing industrial areas, centrally located, with infrastructure such as rail lines (which the refineries need to ship their products!).

Somebody made some quick calculations here:

US Cropland: 442 million acres (20 percent of the land area)

1 bushel of corn yields 2.5 gallons of ethanol.

1 acre yields 160 bushels.(All-time record in 2004.)

1 acre yields 400 gallons of ethanol (2.5 x 160).

One gallon net takes 3 to produce (optimistic EROEI of 1.34 to 1 so
400/4 = 100)

442 million acres x 100 = 44.2 billion gallons net return

Ethanol has less energy density 44.2/1.5 = 29.5 billion gallons net ethanol

We use 144 billion gallons of gasoline per year

29.5 is 21% of 144 billion demand.

To summarize: we could plant the entire US cropland in corn for ethanol. No more food for anyone and that would only account for 21% of our gasoline needs .

One can only hope this plant gets going before the
subsidy dies. What can this plant convert to
when soybeans are OUT and switch grass is in?
This is a bad business model and will end sooner
than later. Get gov't subsidy while you can.

Paul wrote:

I hope it doesn't increase pollution (though I don't think it does) because I would hate it lake Manitou were to get worse... I love visiting my grandparents there. And I agree it could be a good boost for the county!

We will be long dead before Lake Manitou ever gets to a clean status.

On the bright side though with the lake closed to outside boaters due to Hydrilla outbreak the lake will get a nice boost due to few boaters out there on the lake.

Besides I don't think that any biodiesel plant will hurt the lake because they won't be building it nearby. I bet they put it outside of Kewanna where that other one was planned. And I hope you're right about the boost to the economy, cause Fulton County could really use good paying jobs right now. It was the main reason I left there almost 7 yrs ago, there is nothing there worth staying for.

Julia wrote:

Somebody made some quick calculations here:
US Cropland: 442 million acres (20 percent of the land area)
1 bushel of corn yields 2.5 gallons of ethanol.
1 acre yields 160 bushels.(All-time record in 2004.)
1 acre yields 400 gallons of ethanol (2.5 x 160).
One gallon net takes 3 to produce (optimistic EROEI of 1.34 to 1 so
400/4 = 100)
442 million acres x 100 = 44.2 billion gallons net return
Ethanol has less energy density 44.2/1.5 = 29.5 billion gallons net ethanol
We use 144 billion gallons of gasoline per year
29.5 is 21% of 144 billion demand.
To summarize: we could plant the entire US cropland in corn for ethanol. No more food for anyone and that would only account for 21% of our gasoline needs .

Yeah,what she said.

Why are there so many biodiesel plants in Indiana and you still cannot buy any of the stuff in Marion or Johnson Counties?

Bio-diesel requires far less energy to produce than does ethanol. But even gasoline and diesel require energy to produce. The wells have to be drilled, lots of energy used. Refining takes energy. It is just that you get so much more energy from oil than corn.

BTW, leaded gasoline produces more energy than unleaded due to the slower burn.

The nice thing about bio-diesel is that can be made from all sorts of things, like algea, that does not use farm land. And one does not have to use heat (like refining oil or alcohol distillation), mostly just pressing the oil out. Thus bio-diesel is far more energy effective than other means.

Stop feeding Indiana's topsoil to cars!
Stop driving so damned much and grow food on farmland!
We've got the best farmland in the world and we're destroying it. Why? Because we're too lazy to walk to the store and we need ADM to make us more hotpockets because we don't know how to cook! We are squandering our state's #1 resource on snakeoil. We're already making more ethanol than the system can handle. You can't use gas to save gas. This is a fool's errand. They've got us spending a dime to save a nickel.
Growing gas so we can drive to the mall and buy more Chinese communist-made crap we don't need--our dead ancestors are spinning in their graves!

bring it on!!!! we need new ways to keep growing and not be dependant on others lets keep america with america knowledge

2007 marked the opening of four of the largest biodiesel plants in the United States. The 100 MMgy multifeedstock behemoth Imperium Renewables Inc.’s Imperium Grays Harbor plant in Washington state led the way followed closely by Archer Daniels Midland Co.’s 85 MMgy canola oil plant in North Dakota, an 80 MMgy soy oil plant in Indiana built by Louis Dreyfus Corp. and Green Earth Fuels LLC’s 86 MMgy Texas plant, which processes multiple feedstocks. An additional eight plants with at least a 30 MMgy capacity came on line this year. Of these 12 plants, half use soybean oil as their sole feedstock while the others process alternative virgin oils, animal fats, recycled vegetable oil or yellow grease.“The worldwide biodiesel industry is starting to grow up,” says Daniel Parker, president and CEO of Parker, Messana & Associates Inc., an engineering consulting firm based in Washington.“Our feedstock operational and distribution economics are warranting more and more large-scale production facilities capable of serving global markets with biodiesel made from multiple feedstocks,” says Parker, who spoke at BBI International’s Biofuels Workshop and Trade Show: Western Region in Portland, Ore., in October

Kent wrote:

Good for Fulton county. Now let the bickering begin.

Sounds like a good tag line for these messageboards.

Something like this:

Open with a comment appropriate to the topic. Include your thoughts. End with "Now let the bickering begin".

That's usually the pattern.

I have used soy methyl ester (soybean oil) in a couple diesel vehicles and a diesel tractor. The tractor performed normally with straight soy oil. The car performed best and got the best mileage with 50% soy oil and 50% diesel. Can't use it that strong in winter without preheating it. The newer truck got a little less mileage with B10. (10% soy and 90% diesel, but performed well. There seems to be less smoke or soot out the exhaust with stronger mixture of soy oil. I do know that the cost of buying B100 (100% soy methyl ester) has tripled in the last 3 years for some reason and has become harder to purchase than it was 3 years ago, but is still available.

Julia wrote:

Somebody made some quick calculations here:
US Cropland: 442 million acres (20 percent of the land area)
1 bushel of corn yields 2.5 gallons of ethanol.
1 acre yields 160 bushels.(All-time record in 2004.)
1 acre yields 400 gallons of ethanol (2.5 x 160).
One gallon net takes 3 to produce (optimistic EROEI of 1.34 to 1 so
400/4 = 100)
442 million acres x 100 = 44.2 billion gallons net return
Ethanol has less energy density 44.2/1.5 = 29.5 billion gallons net ethanol
We use 144 billion gallons of gasoline per year
29.5 is 21% of 144 billion demand.
To summarize: we could plant the entire US cropland in corn for ethanol. No more food for anyone and that would only account for 21% of our gasoline needs .

Great post, ethanol is not the answer, plus I miss corn on the cob. You can't find it any more.

before people make comments on the subject of biodiesel they should learn a lot more on the subject. First biodiesel is not made from corn!! Secondly, the energy to produce 1 gallon of #2 Diesel Fuel is 350% higher than to produce 1 gallon of Biodiesel Fuel. Comparing emmisions Biodiesel has a 76%Advantage over using #2 Diesel Fuel. Very few emmisions from production Plants compared to Std. Diesel Petroleum or ethanol plants. JUST THE ACTUAL FACTS (NOT B.-S.) If you would like to verify these facts you can go to the NATIONAL BIODIESEL BOARD. www.biodiesel.org ---- John Stofft

Concerned IndianaBreeder wrote:

before people make comments on the subject of biodiesel they should learn a lot more on the subject. First biodiesel is not made from corn!! Secondly, the energy to produce 1 gallon of #2 Diesel Fuel is 350% higher than to produce 1 gallon of Biodiesel Fuel. Comparing emmisions Biodiesel has a 76%Advantage over using #2 Diesel Fuel. Very few emmisions from production Plants compared to Std. Diesel Petroleum or ethanol plants. JUST THE ACTUAL FACTS (NOT B.-S.) If you would like to verify these facts you can go to the NATIONAL BIODIESEL BOARD. www.biodiesel.org ---- John Stofft

Great post, John. It never ceases to amaze me how little modern Hoosiers know about the crops we produce. I too wish that biodiesel was more available in Indy and on the south sides - there are no stations (per the retial links on the website you provided above).
Hoosiers should be very proud of our resources - biodiesel is a great item that we should be using (if possible) and promoting.
My dream is that the US someday produces our own energy - so much so that we can collectively stand up and flip the bird to the middle east. I just hope I live long enough to see that happen.

Concerned IndianaBreeder wrote:

before people make comments on the subject of biodiesel they should learn a lot more on the subject. First biodiesel is not made from corn!! Secondly, the energy to produce 1 gallon of #2 Diesel Fuel is 350% higher than to produce 1 gallon of Biodiesel Fuel. Comparing emmisions Biodiesel has a 76%Advantage over using #2 Diesel Fuel. Very few emmisions from production Plants compared to Std. Diesel Petroleum or ethanol plants. JUST THE ACTUAL FACTS (NOT B.-S.) If you would like to verify these facts you can go to the NATIONAL BIODIESEL BOARD. www.biodiesel.org ---- John Stofft

A website called "biodiesel" probably is going to make up facts to support their case. Biodiesel mostly comes from soybeans which have hit record highs this year (along with corn, wheat, gold, oil, etc...). After making a couple of more refineries, who is going to be able to afford to eat?

The way to stop supporting terrorism is to restructure our communties to not use so much oil. Stop building new roads, start building light rail. Sadly, coal and oil companies control the Republican politicians so we cannot make any progress.