Mormons: We are Christians, too

The Tinman wrote:

<quoted text>
Why were you baptized again, since you were already infant baptized? I am very familiar with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I find your church affiliations very interesting, but how do you combine the beliefs of both churches? They are somewhat different.

Are you a member of the Missouri Synod? I was infant baptized in one.

As I became older and read the scriptures and read about the Historical early Christian church I discovered infant baptisms did not exist. Only a person of Consent who can confess Jesus as Lord should be baptized by the Church.

I see there is value in infant baptism; I consider it a dedication by the parents before the body to raise the child in the principles of God's word, and it is also a declaration of the god parents publicly as well to raise the child in God’s principles should something happen to the parents.

So I do and would baptize my children but see it only as a dedication on my part and would call it a baptism of dedication. The child when cognitively able to, will have to decide if he/she will follow Jesus as Lord and Saviour and if so will get baptized as an act of obedience for being baptized in the Spirit by Jesus his/her Lord and Saviour.

Blessings

The Tinman wrote:

<quoted text>

Why were you baptized again, since you were already infant baptized? I am very familiar with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I find your church affiliations very interesting, but how do you combine the beliefs of both churches? They are somewhat different.

BTW I don't combine the minor issues of these sects that on which they differ, the essentials are there in all of them, they all work together to futher God's kingdom. All threes statement of faith stands on the same Nature of God and that the Bible as the final authority for faith and practice. Does that mean imperfect humans will get it all prefectly right no. But if one has the Spirit of the True God the essentials surely will be there and in these three sects they are there unlike the LDS faith which does not on the most basic of basics.

Blessings.

If one looks at the church at Cornith one sees many issues but they had the Basics down right and thus Paul work with them in love to discipline them so they would grow into a deeper understanding of the Truth.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
I am SO glad you said this. Thank you for proving my point. I would LOVE to address this with you. In your own words you have stated exactly why what I said about you is true, you either consider yourself as the "new Paul" or you believe that your Church is the "new Paul" and that therefor every either Christian Church is an apostate one. You said it. But, I'm not going to. Instead, I am simply going to say that you are correct in ONE thing at lest, there IS blessings in the Truth. I hope you find it someday, and when you do, you will not only understand the meaning of a "straw-man" argument and "hear say," you will understand why your analogy is such a poorly conceived one. I'll give you a hint though... it's very, very obvious, so if you try to figure out why your analogy sucks so bad just by reading your own scenario, don't read too much into it.

Dude with love and respect you are living in soom kind of delusional state.

YOU make no sense and you have not made any point, absolutely.

Blessings again you are not worth any more effort on my part at this time.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Dude with love and respect you are living in soom kind of delusional state.
YOU make no sense and you have not made any point, absolutely.
Blessings again you are not worth any more effort on my part at this time.

Dude, given the example that you yourself cited, you are'nt even remotely qualified to question ANYONE'S mental standing (nor, are you qualified to question anyone's SPIRITUAL standing according to God if you even remotely believe things the way you described.) Both emotional sentiments you conveyed are entirely recipricated, though.

It is exceedingly difficult to convince someone of something they think they already know...

Shame that Flipper and Lassie are not here to help out.

humor me here wrote:

It is exceedingly difficult to convince someone of something they think they already know...

...especially if one party can not or will not limit themselves to reason.

Dagobert II wrote:

<quoted text>
...especially if one party can not or will not limit themselves to reason.

YES YES YES!

You see, Dagobert II I am an engineer, am LDS, was a "small a" atheist (probably more agnostic) in my past. I still think that we need to use logic and reason even in our belief system. ESPECIALLY if we are religious.

You ask me "Doesn't that mean that when you use reason you find yourself more AWAY from a church?" After all, Religion is ANTI reason, right???

No. I choose to be a member of my church. I have had experiences I believe are proof. But if they aren't, I still wish to ally myself with these people because they are kind and gentle and good... and if I am mistaken, they believe as I do...so I am comfortable in my belief.

So I am happy. It helps me feel self-actualized. It promotes good health, body, mind, and spirit. The LDS Church is a
"whole" belief. As an engineer or as a scientist, It still makes sense.

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>YES YES YES!
You see, Dagobert II I am an engineer, am LDS, was a "small a" atheist (probably more agnostic) in my past. I still think that we need to use logic and reason even in our belief system. ESPECIALLY if we are religious.
You ask me "Doesn't that mean that when you use reason you find yourself more AWAY from a church?" After all, Religion is ANTI reason, right???
No. I choose to be a member of my church. I have had experiences I believe are proof. But if they aren't, I still wish to ally myself with these people because they are kind and gentle and good... and if I am mistaken, they believe as I do...so I am comfortable in my belief.
So I am happy. It helps me feel self-actualized. It promotes good health, body, mind, and spirit. The LDS Church is a
"whole" belief. As an engineer or as a scientist, It still makes sense.

and I don't deny that there ae good, decent, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Presbyterians, Jehova's Witnesses, etc., etc. or Mosques, Synagouges, Temples, Churchs, etc. that don't foster the best humanity is capable of. In fact, I believe that humanity suffers greatly when those institutions disappear from our societies. BUt, I DO believe that once these individual, wonderful institutions become the massive juggernaughts they do, the "good" starts to be replaced by the bad REAL fast. It's completely unavoidable, but it's always going to be built into the basic notion that "this religion" is the only "true" one.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
Dude, given the example that you yourself cited, you are'nt even remotely qualified to question ANYONE'S mental standing (nor, are you qualified to question anyone's SPIRITUAL standing according to God if you even remotely believe things the way you described.) Both emotional sentiments you conveyed are entirely recipricated, though.

Says you. Ok let us apply your judgement criteria.

you either consider yourself as the "new Paul" or you believe that your Church is the "new Paul" and that therefor every either Christian Church is an apostate one.

From your post and you think my grammar typos are bad, LOL ROFL, you are not worthy.

"and that therefor every either "

AHHH LOL

How do you like your own medicine. Now you can dismiss yourelf on your rules, what will you do what will you do?

LOL

YOU’RE not worthy LOL

Have a good life.

humor me here wrote:

It is exceedingly difficult to convince someone of something they think they already know...

Are you having a self awaking???

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>YES YES YES!
You see, Dagobert II I am an engineer, am LDS, was a "small a" atheist (probably more agnostic) in my past. I still think that we need to use logic and reason even in our belief system. ESPECIALLY if we are religious.
You ask me "Doesn't that mean that when you use reason you find yourself more AWAY from a church?" After all, Religion is ANTI reason, right???
No. I choose to be a member of my church. I have had experiences I believe are proof. But if they aren't, I still wish to ally myself with these people because they are kind and gentle and good... and if I am mistaken, they believe as I do...so I am comfortable in my belief.
So I am happy. It helps me feel self-actualized. It promotes good health, body, mind, and spirit. The LDS Church is a
"whole" belief. As an engineer or as a scientist, It still makes sense.

Except it does not save and you have forgotten the eternal side of the equation, another LDS who in around about way admits he does not really believe the LDS line but really likes it as a social club.

Exactly what I have been saying all along, its not that you don't know the truth its that you have exchanged it for sugar candy.

The cost of the truth you are not willing to pay.

"I still think that we need to use logic and reason even in our belief system"

Your words above.

So againg the question you have not once tried to answer.

How can two faiths have completly differnent beliefs on the Nature of God and sitll be called by the same name????

Mormons are not Christians they don't believe in a God that Christians have believed in for 2000 years and more importantly a God that is revealed int the Bible.

Blessings are in the Truth

“We're Christians just like you!”

One thing we have found in most cases is it is very rare for the average Latter-day Saint to fully explain the unique teachings of Mormonism. In the LDS Church it is taught that milk must be given before meat. Since many Mormons know that some of their unique teachings will be questioned by their evangelical acquaintances, they often give an explanation of the LDS faith that is less than precise.

It is difficult to comprehend why Mormons would say they are Christians “just like us” given that the foundation of their church presupposes that all professing Christian churches outside of the LDS Church are in a state of apostasy. Do Mormons who make this claim really think they too are “apostates”? Putting that aside, you need to ask yourself some important questions before automatically accepting the notion that the differences separating Christians from Mormons are insignificant. For instance, if your Mormon friend is really a “Christian just like you,” does that mean you believe:

cont...

God was not always God?
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught,

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345; also cited in Gospel Principles, p.305).

In contrast to this, Psalm 90:2 states,“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

God is a glorified, perfected human being with a body of flesh and bones?
According to Joseph Smith,

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret, if the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345. Also cited in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p.129).
The Doctrines of Covenants, considered to be scripture by Latter-day Saints, teaches,“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's”(130:22).

Jesus taught that God the Father was not a man at all. In fact, John 4:24 records Jesus saying,“God is spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

cont...

God is only one among many Gods?
Joseph Smith said,“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years”(Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.35).

Brigham Young, the second president of the LDS Church, once stated,

“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation”(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:334, October 8, 1859).
However, Isaiah 44:6,8 tells us that the God of the Bible knows of no other Gods.“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.”

God is married?
Gordon B. Hinckley, Mormonism’s 15th President, once noted in a conference message,“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me”(“Daughters of God,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1991, p.100. This is also cited in The Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p.257).

Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote,

“Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state”(Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

Just as there is nothing in Mormonism’s unique scripture that mentions God being married to a “heavenly mother,” there is nothing to imply such a teaching in the Bible either.

cont....

humor me here wrote:

No. I choose to be a member of my church. I have had experiences I believe are proof. But if they aren't, I still wish to ally myself with these people because they are kind and gentle and good... and if I am mistaken, they believe as I do...so I am comfortable in my belief.
So I am happy. It helps me feel self-actualized. It promotes good health, body, mind, and spirit. The LDS Church is a
"whole" belief. As an engineer or as a scientist, It still makes sense.

Organizations and individuals can be quite different things. Furthermore, individuals within an organization can vary widely to the extent we find their company amenable.

As a young soldier stationed in Germany I found most Germans quite pleasurable to be around. One of the friendliest Germans I met was an old fellow who owned a gasthaus right outside the gate of our kaserne.

He was old enough to be my grandfather and had no interest at all in trying to speak English so I made do with my limited German and mostly just listened to him. No other soldiers went to his gasthaus as we were told he did not like Americans and was most likely a Communist. He did not, however, throw me out of the place, so I stayed, drank his beer and listened as he and his older, German patrons sat at the stammtisch and talked.

One day, none of the older patrons were present so Ludwig invited me to sit at the stammtisch. Trying to make conversation, I looked at the pennants of local soccer teams on a small table near the stammtisch. Nestled among the soccer pennants was a black shield-shaped plaque with a silver oak leaf on one side and a strange pattern of lines on the other. The plaque looked vaguely familiar. Finally I realized that the lines on the plaque were the three superimposed letters A, H and L. The plaque was Ludwig's old military unit, the Liebstandarte, Adolf Hitler. Sitting before me was a former member of the 1st SS Division, and he was a kind, and gentle and good old fellow as far as I could tell. He also appeared quite healthy for his age, but then I guess the SS selected for and encouraged such traits. For all I know, perhaps every member of the 1st SS Division was kind, and gentle and good, but a rational consideration of history leads me to think otherwise.

No, I didn't avoid Ludwig like a carrier of typhoid from then on out, in fact we had some rather interesting conversations about his experiences and opinions, but neither did I change my opinion of the nature of the SS based upon one kind, and gentle and good individual.

Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer?
12th Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball wrote,

“Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah.”(Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).

Since The New Testament claims that it was through Jesus all things were created (John 1:3; Colossian 1:16, 17), it is difficult to assume such a familial relationship. Lucifer is described as an angel and angels, according to Psalm 148:1-5, are created beings, not pro-created beings in a sexual sense.

Jesus is the literal “Son of God” who was begotten naturally by an immortal Father?
In a pamphlet published by the LDS Church First Presidency, it says:

“Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior”("The Father and The Son; A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve," June 30, 1916. Reprinted in Articles of Faith, p. 421).

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that God stepped down from His throne to “join with one who is finite and mortal in bringing forth,‘after the manner of the flesh,’ the Mortal Messiah”(Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, 1:315).

The Bible describes the incarnation of Christ as a miracle known as the Virgin Birth. Mary, the mother of Jesus, became pregnant without the aid of man, mortal or otherwise (Luke 2:35).

continued at

http://www.mrm.org/topics/introductory-issues...

For the reat of the article go to the above link.

Surely anyone who sees these completly different beliefs of the LDS has to admit that to call Mormons Christians is an absurdity and goes against all rational and logical thought.

So one must ask why all the pretense by the LDS, whay don't they just be Mormons. Why is it the LDS sect wants to ride the coat tails of Christendom's 2000 year history even when their founding fathers claimed all the Christian sects for the last 1700+ years are false and of the Devil and Apostate.

Why indeed.

Truth matters and LDS are not telling the whole truth about what they believe and why they believe it.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Says you. Ok let us apply your judgement criteria.
you either consider yourself as the "new Paul" or you believe that your Church is the "new Paul" and that therefor every either Christian Church is an apostate one.
From your post and you think my grammar typos are bad, LOL ROFL, you are not worthy.
"and that therefor every either "
AHHH LOL
How do you like your own medicine. Now you can dismiss yourelf on your rules, what will you do what will you do?
LOL
YOU’RE not worthy LOL
Have a good life.

let's examine your scenario, then. In your own words, you state that philisophically speaking you view the Bible as a highway to God, the Mormons as folks "breaking the speed limit" (the kmph vs. mph argument you posited) and God as the cop who stops the speeder, rejecting their excuse that they do not understand the difference between miles and kilometers (a really, really stupid anaology, but I'll take it at face value). Now, let's examine what you do here... you have two drivers, going the same direction, following the same path, with God stopping one for going beyond the designated speed limit of that path, but not the other. Are you so naive that you don't understand that by your own example you just justifed Mormon belief? By your specious reasoning, even IF the Mormon "speeders by ignorance" are stopped by God MULTIPLE times, the "other driver" you approve of is going to reach the same destination. Want to re-examine your theory yet, genuis?

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Says you. Ok let us apply your judgement criteria.
you either consider yourself as the "new Paul" or you believe that your Church is the "new Paul" and that therefor every either Christian Church is an apostate one.
From your post and you think my grammar typos are bad, LOL ROFL, you are not worthy.
"and that therefor every either "
AHHH LOL
How do you like your own medicine. Now you can dismiss yourelf on your rules, what will you do what will you do?
LOL
YOU’RE not worthy LOL
Have a good life.

and try the part where you critique my grammer again. the post you responded to in this one did'nt even have the error you referrenced. If I made it, I'll claim it, unlike you, I never claimed perfection in anything. Try again... maybe you'll get the correct one this time. Hope you have a nice life too... it'll start when you begin to understand the truth. Blessings.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
let's examine your scenario, then. In your own words, you state that philisophically speaking you view the Bible as a highway to God, the Mormons as folks "breaking the speed limit" (the kmph vs. mph argument you posited) and God as the cop who stops the speeder, rejecting their excuse that they do not understand the difference between miles and kilometers (a really, really stupid anaology, but I'll take it at face value). Now, let's examine what you do here... you have two drivers, going the same direction, following the same path, with God stopping one for going beyond the designated speed limit of that path, but not the other. Are you so naive that you don't understand that by your own example you just justifed Mormon belief? By your specious reasoning, even IF the Mormon "speeders by ignorance" are stopped by God MULTIPLE times, the "other driver" you approve of is going to reach the same destination. Want to re-examine your theory yet, genuis?

Wow you sure like putting words in someone elses mouth.

Sir Mam you are not worth it you just are not worth it.

Simply

Blessings