Mormons: We are Christians, too

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
again, you should actually ASK them that, as opposed to assuming that you get to be judge of their heart. you make a pitiful Paul, but that is because you are trying much, much too hard. Yes they (somewhat) believe that Jesus was a created being and the brother of Lucifer. Guess who THEY believe that the Father (or, Creator-being since you can only seem to think in that capacity) CREATED them? The exact same Father that Jesus Himself prayed to. Guess that's not the one you pray to.

Your straw man arguements are getting weaker by the post.

First I don't judge any man's heart that is God's job.

But as God has called us to judge other men's teachings in light of Scripture as did the Bereans I too follow as Jesus and the Apostles taught.

So if you can make your case from scirpture that the LDS pray to the God of the Bilbe I am all ears.

But you don't so you are of no consquence.

Mormons don't pray to the one true God of the Bible as their LDS doctrine reveals a completely different God and nature of God revealed in inerrant word of God we call the Bible.

Truth Matters you post none.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
you cannot possibly be this thick without working at it. Again, your example sucks. It is a stupid, stupid example, actually, especially in a "comparative Christian philosophy" discussion because it makes no sense whatsover. You make the automatic assumption that a driver would be so stupid as to not understand the difference between kilometers and miles while driving. Such a driver has no business on the road to begin with. That is, of course, unless you think of yourself as the cop in the scenario you give, which, I can only logically conclude you do. So I guess in your mind your scenario does make sense, but that's what happens when you begin to assume the authority you're after. But you should consider a different analogy than assuming that everyone who does'nt believe as you think they should is as stupid as you imply. Try a non-crazy persons perspective when thinking up an example.

Again your hear say does not prove your asertions to be true or make you right.

If Mormons are Christians then show your evidence, your hot air posts have no substance and thus are easily dismissed as dumb and nonesense.

BTW many drivers make the arguement in Canada, as do many US tourists, with regards to the speed limit because they don't want to pay the price of thier error, some actually convince themselves ot believe in their own lie.

Just as the LDS do, the Bible is explicit on the nature of God but they reject it as the price of admitting they have been deceived is too much, to leave their families and social networks behind is a cost most are not willing to pay to live in and with the Truth found in the Real Jesus not their LDS made up one.

Blessings in the Truth Mormons are not Christians the Bible says so not me.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
you cannot possibly be this thick without working at it. Again, your example sucks. It is a stupid, stupid example, actually, especially in a "comparative Christian philosophy" discussion because it makes no sense whatsover. You make the automatic assumption that a driver would be so stupid as to not understand the difference between kilometers and miles while driving. Such a driver has no business on the road to begin with. That is, of course, unless you think of yourself as the cop in the scenario you give, which, I can only logically conclude you do. So I guess in your mind your scenario does make sense, but that's what happens when you begin to assume the authority you're after. But you should consider a different analogy than assuming that everyone who does'nt believe as you think they should is as stupid as you imply. Try a non-crazy persons perspective when thinking up an example.

Just a P.S. I never suggested they would not understand, I simply stated they make an argument to get of the ticket.

Its not that most LDS don't understand that the Bible negates their faith it is that they don't want to acknowledge it as to so will require a heavy price.

So they the LDS accept the lie willingly and knowingly as they don't have the courage to change.
They are with out excuse.

Hannah is a prime example she clearly knows her faith is contradiction, so instead of mounting a defence for her faith , because she knows she cannot do this, she tries to show all religions are a contradiction so she can be justified to stay where she is.

Its not that the LDS can't believe the truth it is that they choose not too.

I feel greatly for them, but as I and all true Christians we are called to count the cost, before we commit, as Jesus said in his parable do you have the money to complete the house if not better not start building.

You may think I am being judgemental, and you know what YOU are right, the question is whether my judgement is based on FACT and TRUTH and up till now you have not been willing to test my assertions in light of God’s word revealed in the Bible.

If I have made an error in my readings of God’s word I would more than appreciate you showing me how, I am willing to change for the truth, but not straw men innuendo slander and name calling they have no effect on me.

Blessings.

so again the evidence at hand.

WHY MORMONISM IS NOT CHRISTIAN?

The next several pages will summarize the major problems with the teachings of the Mormon Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints located in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States.

These pages will NOT tell you what individual Mormons believe. You will have to ask them one-by-one to find this out. But keep in mind, what they say may or may not agree with what their church teaches.

Why Mormonism is not Christian is summarized in the following two major reasons:

The Mormon Church teaches another "Jesus" as the Apostle Paul warns in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

The Mormon Church teaches another "gospel" as the Apostle Paul warns in Galatians 1:8-9.

This claim will be demonstrated in what follows. As you read the materials note the Mormon references that support what is stated.

WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

I will answer this question by asking some questions.

1) If I said a Christian was one who believed in Jesus Christ and then pointed to a fence post and said, "I want you to meet my Jesus Christ." Am I a real Christian?"

2) If I said a Christian was one who believed in Jesus Christ and then said, "I carry my Jesus Christ around in this little bottle and when I rub the bottle he will come out and do anything I want." Am I a real Christian?

3) Am I a Christian if I rejected the Bible's New Testament as God's standard for living our lives?

Would you give me change (assuming you had it) for what looked like a twenty dollar bill (it has all the markings of a genuine twenty)? Suppose it was on the wrong paper? It says it is a twenty on both sides. How about if it was just the wrong color? How about if it was only the wrong size? I doubt you would. Why? Because only one wrong major attribute is enough to declare it a counterfeit no matter what it claims to be. A claim is not enough, all the major attributes must also be present and align with the genuine article.

So you see, using the right vocabulary, saying the "right" words, is not enough. Having God's name correct and most of the major attributes of God correct is not enough. Why? Because there is more to being a Christian than saying the name "Jesus Christ" and having some of God's major attributes correct.

The devils believe (James 2:19). A Christian is more than calling Jesus Lord, more than casting out demons in His name, more than doing deeds in His name (Matt 7:21-23; Lk 6:46). A Christian is a person who has in their heart the biblical Jesus Christ not only as their Savior but as their Lord. They have confessed Him with their mouth and believe in their hearts (Eph 3:19, Rom 10:9-11). They then with His help start to live the kind of life He wants them to live (Eph 2:10; Phil 1:6, 2:13; John 15:5; Heb 13:20-21).

How do we know the biblical Jesus Christ? We use the descriptions in the Bible given about Him and His father, God the Father. See article B-2 for a side-by-side comparison of the Biblical teachings about God to what the Mormon church teaches

cont...

The Mormon Church teaches the following:

1) There are many Gods and that people (some of us for example) can progress to become Gods and Goddesses.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 349, 370, 373; Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, pp.190-191; Achieving A Celestial Marriage, by the Mormon Church, pp.129-132; History of the Church, 6:306 (Vol 6, page 306); Teachings of the Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 28, 51-53.)

2) Those who become Gods will each have his own world and with his wife (wives?) procreate spirits who will be raised to maturity and go into bodies on the new world. These new people will worship those who procreated their spirits, in the same way we worship God the Father.(Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, pp. 9, 190-191.)

3) God the Father has a father. He was once a man like us who died and was resurrected as part of his progressing to godhood. He has a body of flesh and bones. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-347, 370; Mormon Doctrine, by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 321, 576-577, 589; Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith," The Ensign, January 1989, p. 28; Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, Religion 231 and 232, p. 7.)

4) Jesus Christ is our elder brother, the first spirit born to God the Father and Mother in Heaven. His physical body was conceived physically by the Father and his earthly mother, Mary, just as ours was by our parents. This was part of Jesus Christ's progression to become a God. Mormon doctrine also teaches that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are spirit brothers, both were born of God the Father and Mother in Heaven and raised to maturity in a pre-mortal pre-existence.(Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, pp.15-16; Mormon Doctrine, by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 192, 546-547, 589-590, 742; Gospel Through The Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p. 15; "The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith," The Ensign, January 1989, p. 28-29; "Whom Say Ye That I Am", Family Home Evening Manual, published by the Mormon Church, 1972, pp. 125-126.)

5) The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, and as the Father and Son, is not omnipresent (all places at one time).(Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, p. 34; Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, 1:38, 49-50; Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, Religion 231 and 232, pp. 8, 11; Doctrine and Covenants 130:22.)

6) Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of mankind in the Garden of Gethsemane, not on the cross alone.(Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, p. 58.)

7) The grace of God and attaining exaltation in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom only comes by works, not as a free gift from God (as in Ephesians 2:8-9).(2 Nephi 9:23, 25;23; Moroni 10:32; #3 Articles of Faith; Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, p. 291-292; Mormon Doctrine, by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 339-671.)

8) The Bible has been tampered with, parts removed and parts changed, so it is not reliable, as a result additional Scriptures are needed.(Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, 3:190-191; 1 Nephi 13:26-29; 2 Nephi 29:2-3, 6-8; Church News, June 20, 1992, p. 3, a letter from the first presidency of May 22, 1992; The Ensign, January 1992, p. 5.)

9) There was a great and total apostasy of the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ shortly after he died and that truths lost needed to be restored, as done through Joseph Smith.(Gospel Principles, by the Mormon Church, 1986 and older editions, p. 100-101; Mormon Doctrine, by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, p. 44; Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, 3:265-291.)

cont...

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT THE ABOVE MORMON TEACHINGS?

None of the above teachings by the Mormon Church are biblical, hence are not Christian. The Bible has the following to say about the above items.

The Bible is very clear that there is only one God and that he is the God of all creation, not just of this world:

A. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5

B. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 43:10

The King James edition of the Old Testament, as others, follows the tradition that the Hebrew word "Yahweh" (YHWH), frequently given as Jehovah, is shown as LORD, in small capital letters (The Holy Bible, New Revised Standard Version, Holman Bible Publishers, 1989, in the preface called "To The Reader," p. 3). Mormon teachings say this is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Lord before he came to earth (The Holy Bible, published by the Mormon Church, at the back is the Bible Dictionary, p. 710-711 under "Jehovah" and Mormon Doctrine, p. 392 under "Jehovah"). This should be kept in mind as you read the Old Testament verses. For example, LDS should view items #B., C. and E. as follows: Here we have the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, who would not lie to us and knows everything, saying he does not know of any another God, before him or after him. This also means the LORD is saying he knows nothing about his father, grandfather, great grandfather and so on.

C. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God ...Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:6, 8

D. "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24

In Isaiah 44:24 we have, based upon Mormon Church teachings, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ saying he created the universe by himself. This contradicts the LDS temple endowment ceremony which shows three persons involved in the creation: Elohim (the Father), Jehovah (the Son) and Michael (Adam).

E. "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else...Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." Isaiah 45:5-6, 21

cont...

F "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself," Hebrews 6:13

G. "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee." Nehemiah 9:6

H. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" Colossians 1:16

I. "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:2

The Bible is also clear that God has always existed as God, there never was a time when he was not God, he is God from all eternity to all eternity.

J. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psalms 90:2

K. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting." Psalms 93:2

L. But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting ....." Psalms 103:17

The Bible is also clear that the Father does not have a body of flesh and bones as taught by the Mormon Church:

M. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

N. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39

In items 0.- S. below we are told that the LORD (Yahweh in Hebrew, also called Jehovah) is God (Elohim in Hebrew) and God is the LORD. Elohim and Yahweh (Jehovah) are one in the same God. They are names/titles for the same one true God Almighty of the Bible, not two separate Gods as taught by the Mormon Church. According to them Yahweh (Jehovah) is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ and Elohim is God the Father.

cont..

O. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Genesis 17:1

P. Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him." Deuteronomy 4:35

Q. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" Deuteronomy 6:4

Q. "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deuteronomy 4:39

R. "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;" Deuteronomy 7:9

S. "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." Exodus 6:3

The following is about the Mormon teachings in item 8 and 9 on page 2 of this paper. In item 8 we demonstrated how the Mormon Church thinks the Bible has been tampered with and parts are missing or changed. The following biblical verses attest to the reliability of the Bible:

John 17:11, 20 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

From these last two verses we are assured of the Bible's reliability. Can you imagine that the Lord's prayer for us in John 17:20 was ignored for 1,800 years? Did the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6:17 tell us to take up a defective sword?

As mentioned in item 9, on page 2, the Mormon Church claims there were complete and full apostasy shortly after the Lord died. To support this LDS will quote biblical verses. None of the Mormon proof text or any other verses in the Bible say there would be a COMPLETE and FULL apostasy. No Biblical verses support the LDS teachings. In reality the following verses say there would NOT be complete apostasy

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:19-20 Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Also see: Matthew 24:35, 28:20; John 10:29

Were the Lord's apostles, disciples and the Holy Ghost bunglers, dismal failures? If the teachings of the Mormon Church are correct about a complete apostasy they would have to be. But they were not, the Lord's church was never lost! His words (the Bible) were never lost or corrupted

.

John Farkas; Berean Christian Ministries, P.O. Box 1091, Webster, N.Y. 14580

Web page: http://www.bcmmin.org

WHY DO WE OPPOSE MORMONISM?

One of the most frequent questions we are asked is, "Why do you do this? Why do you oppose Mormonism? Why do you have this your anti-Mormon web page? Why do you hate Mormons?"
Truth Can Hurt, Even When Given In Love, As Softly As Possible
We know that the truth can hurt and be upsetting, even when given as softly as possible. But it is our Christian duty, in love, to share with you what we know. If your house was on fire wouldn't you want us pounding at the door. The articles on our web page are like this, to alert you to what the Mormon church is not likely to tell you at their open houses, pageants or when their missionaries come to your home. Some might say we share information like this because we hate Mormons. This is not correct. While we strongly believe that Mormons have every right to their beliefs, we are concerned that people are making decisions about it without all the necessary information. As Christians there are many teachings of this church, such as family, moral values and hard work, we can applaud. We have nothing but warm regard for most of the Mormon people; they make good neighbors, citizens, friends and co-workers. But it is as if their house (any yours) were on fire and we must warn them and you. In reality it is worst than if your house is on fire. Where you will spend eternity is at stake.

We Do Support The Right Of Mormons To Have Their Own Beliefs
We do support the right of Mormons (and non- Mormons) to have their own belief system. But we do take issue with any organization that claims to be:

(1) the only true church, when it isn't;
(2) a Christian organization, when it isn't;
(3) and it attacks my Christian beliefs.

If a person's beliefs are strong and meaningful enough, he or she would want to share them with others.(I am sure this is why many Mormon missionaries serve.) Couple this with God's commandments that we should tell others (Matthew 28:19,20; 1 Peter 3:15) and we have an indisputable injunction to do this. Also in 2 Timothy 4:2-3 and Hebrews 5:14, we are told to "preach the Word", to reprove and rebuke, and discern good from evil.

Mormonisn Has Attacked My Beliefs
The Mormon church in one of its scriptures claims to be the only true church on the face of the whole earth (Doctrine & Covenants 1:30). Mormonism from the alleged first vision to the present time has attacked the doctrines of classical Christianity. The Pearl of Great Price, under Joseph Smith - History 1:19, says all other churches are wrong and professors of the creeds are corrupt.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt...(There is more on this under "Joseph Smith's First Vision." article D-5 of the web page)
I am offended by this statement. I don't believe Jesus Christ said this. The Book of Mormon says in 1 Nephi 13:26-28, that the Bible has many "plain and precious" parts taken out of it. 1 Nephi 14:10 condemns all churches as being of the devil. It says:
Behold, there are save two churches only, the one is the church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil...(1 Nephi 14:10)
I am offended by this statement. The Mormon Church claims to be the "church of the Lamb of God" and the only one led by God. The Mormon monthly magazine, Ensign, December 1984, pages 8-9, in an article "The Early Signs of the Apostasy" by Kent P. Jackson, says, starting in the second paragraph:

...the church of the Savior and his Apostles...came to an end within a century after its formation. The doctrines which its inspired leaders taught were corrupted and changed by others...none of the Christian systems that existed after those developments, though they did some good things, enjoyed divine endorsement as the Lord's own church...To say that Satan sits in the place of god in Christianity ... is not to say that all that is in it is satanic.
Page 9 of the same article, says that Satan sits at the head of the Christian churches:
But God is not at its head, making that church - following the appearance in it of Satan - no longer the church of God. To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the apostles is not to say that all that is in it is Satanic.
I am offended by this article from the Ensign.

Many Parts Of Mormon Doctrine Are Not Christian
While there are some teachings of the Mormon church I can embrace, too many parts of Mormon doctrine are not Christian. The Mormon God the Father, who has a body of flesh and bones, is only one of a countless number of gods who was once a man, died and was resurrected. He had a mother and father and grandparents ad infinitum. He is married and procreates all the spirits of the people who have been and will be born on this earth. The Mormon Jesus was not always God, but was the first-born spirit offspring of God, and the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. He is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Mormonism once taught that Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, became pregnant with Jesus by her Heavenly Father, the Mormon God, in the same literal way a husband and wife procreate children. In the same way we were conceived by our parents. Many Mormons don't want to believe this doctrine, so we urge all to see the Family Home Evening manual, copyrighted 1972, pages 125, 126, lesson 27 "Whom Say Ye That I Am?" Other references are found in Gospel Principes, Chapter 2, first two paragraphs and all of chapter 47 (1997 edtion). This last reference can be found on a Mormon web page at http://www.lds.org/library/gos_pri/gos_pri.ht... There is more on these teachings of the Mormons church, with references, in article B-2.

Unique Mormon Doctrine Not Openly Taught
I believe the Mormon church's teaching program is not open and honest (there is more on this under "What The Mormons Don't Say" article B-8). If the Mormon missionaries clearly taught the doctrines outlined above and they were easily available at open houses and pageants, people like myself would not need to have a web pages. But then very few people would join the Mormon Church. LDS say they do not teach the "deep doctrine" because people need "milk" first. Would you accept as legal tender a $20 bill that had a picture of Mickey Mouse on it? Of course not. Counterfeiters make their bills to look like the real thing. So do counterfeit religions.

In Summary
So "Why do we speak against Mormonism?" We do it because we must defend our beliefs from the attacks of the Mormon Church and tell people, as commanded by God, about the biblical Jesus Christ and his gospel. See article B-2 for a side by side comparison of what the Mormon church teaches compared to what the Bible says.
Jude 1:3 tells me to "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

John Farkas
Berean Christian Ministries, P.O. Box 1091, Webster, N.Y. 14580

5-22-96; Revised 2-20-00
web/whyopose

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Again your hear say does not prove your asertions to be true or make you right.
If Mormons are Christians then show your evidence, your hot air posts have no substance and thus are easily dismissed as dumb and nonesense.
BTW many drivers make the arguement in Canada, as do many US tourists, with regards to the speed limit because they don't want to pay the price of thier error, some actually convince themselves ot believe in their own lie.
Just as the LDS do, the Bible is explicit on the nature of God but they reject it as the price of admitting they have been deceived is too much, to leave their families and social networks behind is a cost most are not willing to pay to live in and with the Truth found in the Real Jesus not their LDS made up one.
Blessings in the Truth Mormons are not Christians the Bible says so not me.

you do not know what hearsay evidence is, do you? yeah, if I were you I would keep rejecting what everyone says to you when they are telling you that you are misguided too, because I would suffer from the same delusion that you do. I am thankful that I do not. Many speeders make the excuse that they are rushing to the bathroom (it's the number-one "non-excuse" the average policeman hears in fact) but that is ALSO no excuse for speeding. You ASSUME idiots who try the argument you posit have "convinced themselves" that there is no difference between kmp and mph, that is completely irrelevent to the very clear and simple statement that I made that such idiots should not be driving in the first place as their minds are too simple to understand the basics involved with automotive travel. But in YOUR example, the one YOU put forth (not me, your words, not mine or a third-party's i.e. "hearsay") you turn the Bible into the philisophical highway who's ultimate conclusion is the path to God. That's fine, I do too, actually, so we agree on that part. But in your own stupid example, you posit that those who travel at different speeds are some how "not going to get there." It's a stupid analogy, but then again, put forth by someone who thinks hearsay is here, say. Let me clear something up for you, Concerned. You're not the cop in the scenario. You're the guy who convinces himself that there's no difference between the kilometer ticks and the mileage ticks on the speedometer. And your Church that's led you to believe that their the true Paul, they've made you stupid. Plenty of Mormons leave their Churches, just like PLENTY of atheists become Christians, plenty of Christians become Muslims, Plenty of Baptists become Methodists, you name it. But your assumption that "leaving their families and joinig the right Church" is the same assumption they make about every other congregant who leaves the faith they leave to join theirs. The difference between their point-of-view and your's... they have the guts to say what faith they follow. You don't.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Just a P.S. I never suggested they would not understand, I simply stated they make an argument to get of the ticket.
Its not that most LDS don't understand that the Bible negates their faith it is that they don't want to acknowledge it as to so will require a heavy price.
So they the LDS accept the lie willingly and knowingly as they don't have the courage to change.
They are with out excuse.
Hannah is a prime example she clearly knows her faith is contradiction, so instead of mounting a defence for her faith , because she knows she cannot do this, she tries to show all religions are a contradiction so she can be justified to stay where she is.
Its not that the LDS can't believe the truth it is that they choose not too.
I feel greatly for them, but as I and all true Christians we are called to count the cost, before we commit, as Jesus said in his parable do you have the money to complete the house if not better not start building.
You may think I am being judgemental, and you know what YOU are right, the question is whether my judgement is based on FACT and TRUTH and up till now you have not been willing to test my assertions in light of God’s word revealed in the Bible.
If I have made an error in my readings of God’s word I would more than appreciate you showing me how, I am willing to change for the truth, but not straw men innuendo slander and name calling they have no effect on me.
Blessings.

the name-calling, slander, etc. have no effect on me, either, but I will respond in kind. You state that I have'nt addressed a single one of your assertions, please point out where. Please be as specific as possible, because I think I have addressed every point you make. And do it without a straw-man argument, please... I don't feel like discussing the theological implications of not helping a cop change a stranded motorist's tire.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
you do not know what hearsay evidence is, do you? yeah, if I were you I would keep rejecting what everyone says to you when they are telling you that you are misguided too, because I would suffer from the same delusion that you do. I am thankful that I do not. Many speeders make the excuse that they are rushing to the bathroom (it's the number-one "non-excuse" the average policeman hears in fact) but that is ALSO no excuse for speeding. You ASSUME idiots who try the argument you posit have "convinced themselves" that there is no difference between kmp and mph, that is completely irrelevent to the very clear and simple statement that I made that such idiots should not be driving in the first place as their minds are too simple to understand the basics involved with automotive travel. But in YOUR example, the one YOU put forth (not me, your words, not mine or a third-party's i.e. "hearsay") you turn the Bible into the philisophical highway who's ultimate conclusion is the path to God. That's fine, I do too, actually, so we agree on that part. But in your own stupid example, you posit that those who travel at different speeds are some how "not going to get there." It's a stupid analogy, but then again, put forth by someone who thinks hearsay is here, say. Let me clear something up for you, Concerned. You're not the cop in the scenario. You're the guy who convinces himself that there's no difference between the kilometer ticks and the mileage ticks on the speedometer. And your Church that's led you to believe that their the true Paul, they've made you stupid. Plenty of Mormons leave their Churches, just like PLENTY of atheists become Christians, plenty of Christians become Muslims, Plenty of Baptists become Methodists, you name it. But your assumption that "leaving their families and joinig the right Church" is the same assumption they make about every other congregant who leaves the faith they leave to join theirs. The difference between their point-of-view and your's... they have the guts to say what faith they follow. You don't.

I await your rational, logical, biblical, and historical evidence as why I am wrong when I assert Mormons are not Christians.

IN light of the evidence offered today alone in the posts above that you did not even attempt to address, I must assume you have not case especially when your above post is a regurgitation of all the rest of your posts. Is the best you have to offer?

Blessings in the Truth I still await for you to offer some.

BTW I never said I was the Cop I said God was. YOUR straw man arguments show you are not to bright.

OH "hearsay is here say" if the best you can pick on is my typing skills and the fact I did not proof read my typing, well I will take that as an affirmative to my assertions are air tight and can not be refuted.

I must state it again, Wow is that the best you got? Come on you claim I am stupid but the best you got is to focus on bad typing. It’s a non formal thread lol rofl, if you can't find any historical or biblical evidence maybe you should stand down because you clearly are only helping me and my case and you are making a fool of yourself.

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
the name-calling, slander, etc. have no effect on me, either, but I will respond in kind. You state that I have'nt addressed a single one of your assertions, please point out where. Please be as specific as possible, because I think I have addressed every point you make. And do it without a straw-man argument, please... I don't feel like discussing the theological implications of not helping a cop change a stranded motorist's tire.

LOL ROFL LOL

wOOOOOOW LOL

" please point out where. "

You want me to point out something that does not exist. YA baby.

Really????

You are truly pathetic have a nice life.

There are 6 posts full of evidence above that show Mormons are not Christians you have not and I believe can not show them in error.

So you go round and round and round.

Again have a nice life you are not worth anymore effort at this time.

Blessings

concerned in Brasil wrote:

Many Parts Of Mormon Doctrine Are Not Christian
While there are some teachings of the Mormon church I can embrace, too many parts of Mormon doctrine are not Christian. The Mormon God the Father, who has a body of flesh and bones, is only one of a countless number of gods who was once a man, died and was resurrected. He had a mother and father and grandparents ad infinitum. He is married and procreates all the spirits of the people who have been and will be born on this earth. The Mormon Jesus was not always God, but was the first-born spirit offspring of God, and the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. He is the spirit brother of Lucifer. Mormonism once taught that Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, became pregnant with Jesus by her Heavenly Father, the Mormon God, in the same literal way a husband and wife procreate children. In the same way we were conceived by our parents. Many Mormons don't want to believe this doctrine, so we urge all to see the Family Home Evening manual, copyrighted 1972, pages 125, 126, lesson 27 "Whom Say Ye That I Am?" Other references are found in Gospel Principes, Chapter 2, first two paragraphs and all of chapter 47 (1997 edtion). This last reference can be found on a Mormon web page at http://www.lds.org/library/gos_pri/gos_pri.ht... There is more on these teachings of the Mormons church, with references, in article B-2.
Unique Mormon Doctrine Not Openly Taught
I believe the Mormon church's teaching program is not open and honest (there is more on this under "What The Mormons Don't Say" article B-8). If the Mormon missionaries clearly taught the doctrines outlined above and they were easily available at open houses and pageants, people like myself would not need to have a web pages. But then very few people would join the Mormon Church. LDS say they do not teach the "deep doctrine" because people need "milk" first. Would you accept as legal tender a $20 bill that had a picture of Mickey Mouse on it? Of course not. Counterfeiters make their bills to look like the real thing. So do counterfeit religions.
In Summary
So "Why do we speak against Mormonism?" We do it because we must defend our beliefs from the attacks of the Mormon Church and tell people, as commanded by God, about the biblical Jesus Christ and his gospel. See article B-2 for a side by side comparison of what the Mormon church teaches compared to what the Bible says.
Jude 1:3 tells me to "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
John Farkas
Berean Christian Ministries, P.O. Box 1091, Webster, N.Y. 14580
5-22-96; Revised 2-20-00
web/whyopose

Are you a member of the Berean Christian Ministries?

Chago wrote:

<quoted text>
so, why are we hard-wired to listen?
theres a God Module is in our brain;
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/nov/01/local...

The authors of the article speculated on some very secular reasons that natural selection may have favored such hard wiring.

Beyond that speculation it should be noted that the morphology encouraged by natural selection is not always appropriate for experiences beyond those found in nature. Consider human flight as an example. Ask a pilot who has become disoriented in darkness or fog whether it is better to fly by one's hard-wired instincts or one's instruments. Instruments will win over instinct every time as we have evolved no adequate instincts for flight, that not being our natural mode of transportation.

We have hard-wired instincts in what has been called 'spiritual' matters, but perhaps, as your article points out, those instincts are really more about the development of, "tribe loyalty or reinforce kinship ties or the stability of a closely knit clan." as a survival trait in our natural environment and have nothing to do with a 'supernatural' realm at all.

The Tinman wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you a member of the Berean Christian Ministries?

No, I am just a supporter.

I am an evangelical Bible believing Christian.
I grew up in a Lutheran Fellowship in Canada, infant baptized and confirmed.
I later in adulthood was a member of a Vineyard fellowship in Canada and later before I moved to Brazil an Alliance fellowship. I received an adult baptism when I was 24 years old. I do not believe water baptism saves but the Baptism of the Spirit by Jesus does. When on has been baptized by the Spirit one will follow the commands of Jesus and his first command for believers is too have a water baptism to declare publically, outwardly and inwardly reality that has already taken place.

I currently attend two fellowships in Brazil a Lutheran and an Assemblies of God.

I believe the Church can be found in many Sects and I am non denominational per say.

I do as best I can to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I truly believe if one truly holds to LDS doctrine one is not a Christian in any sense as the Dogma of the LDS sect is bluntly contrary to the teachings of God revealed in his Holy Word.

The LDS follow a false Jesus and have a false Gospel.

Blessings are in the Truth

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
No, I am just a supporter.
I am an evangelical Bible believing Christian.
I grew up in a Lutheran Fellowship in Canada, infant baptized and confirmed.
I later in adulthood was a member of a Vineyard fellowship in Canada and later before I moved to Brazil an Alliance fellowship. I received an adult baptism when I was 24 years old. I do not believe water baptism saves but the Baptism of the Spirit by Jesus does. When on has been baptized by the Spirit one will follow the commands of Jesus and his first command for believers is too have a water baptism to declare publically, outwardly and inwardly reality that has already taken place.
I currently attend two fellowships in Brazil a Lutheran and an Assemblies of God.
I believe the Church can be found in many Sects and I am non denominational per say.
I do as best I can to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I truly believe if one truly holds to LDS doctrine one is not a Christian in any sense as the Dogma of the LDS sect is bluntly contrary to the teachings of God revealed in his Holy Word.
The LDS follow a false Jesus and have a false Gospel.
Blessings are in the Truth

Why were you baptized again, since you were already infant baptized? I am very familiar with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. I find your church affiliations very interesting, but how do you combine the beliefs of both churches? They are somewhat different.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>

BTW I never said I was the Cop I said God was.

I am SO glad you said this. Thank you for proving my point. I would LOVE to address this with you. In your own words you have stated exactly why what I said about you is true, you either consider yourself as the "new Paul" or you believe that your Church is the "new Paul" and that therefor every either Christian Church is an apostate one. You said it. But, I'm not going to. Instead, I am simply going to say that you are correct in ONE thing at lest, there IS blessings in the Truth. I hope you find it someday, and when you do, you will not only understand the meaning of a "straw-man" argument and "hear say," you will understand why your analogy is such a poorly conceived one. I'll give you a hint though... it's very, very obvious, so if you try to figure out why your analogy sucks so bad just by reading your own scenario, don't read too much into it.