Mormons: We are Christians, too

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Carrying a Bible does not make one a Christian.
Believing what it teaches does.
The Bible teaches Jesus is uncreated, LDS say otherwise.
The Bible teaches there is only one God, LDS say otherwise.
I could go on and make a list with 100+ critical items the LDS believe contray to the Bible's explict teachings.
So they carry a Bible Big deal, that counts for nothing as they put their faith in a man made organization and not what the bible teaches.
Therefore MORMONs and the LDS faith is not Christian.
Truth matters not whay you have in your hand.

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of His Father - I as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
know absolutely that this is SO ! Our faith is Christian and you
will someday stand before God and all His Holy angels and know that for yourself !

Dagobert II wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, we humans seek pattern and where no pattern exists, we'll create one hence the ice cream castles and bunnies we see in clouds or the 'voices' ghost hunters hear in their electric voice phenomena.
Since you ask what it would take for me to believe in a god I would say that the first step would be to define divinity.
If one were to offer the anthropomorphic "As man is, God once was, as God is man may be", I'd not be impressed, no matter how unsure Hinckley may have been about the concept. A human, even a highly advanced human, is still only a human. There are many more things in existence than humans.
Divinity, in my mind, is truth. To be truth, Divinity must be the summation of all existence without regard to time. The summation of all existence can not be confined to a single human, all humanity, all life or even all of the solar system. All means all existence without regard to time.
There can not be a separate realm of evil or outer darkness of existence. In Divinity there can only be the summation of all existence, if such a thing as Divinity exists.
If Divinity is the summation of existence and the summation of existence is truth, then no one has to convince me of the existence of the summation of existence, whatever that may be. Where I get suspicious is when folks start telling me they know the nature of the summation of existence. No one can know that unless they are the summation of existence themselves.
I don't think I'm the summation of existence, though I'm quite confident that I exist and am therefore a part of the summation of existence. I'm not quite as sure that Adolf Hitler, Mother Theresa or the planet Nibiru are part of existence though if they do, did, will, exist they are part of the Divine summation of existence as well.
While I am part of that Divine summation of existence I can not say that the Divine summation is good, evil, loves me or hates me or just plain doesn't care. As a singularity of existence there would be nothing against which to compare itself so terms such as good, evil, loving or hateful would really be irrelevant. All that can be said about existence is that it exists and that comes pretty close to the description Moses received from his God when he asked what he should call it.
So, since you asked, I already believe in existence and the summation of existence is my definition of Divinity. My Deity doesn't demand worship, prayer, ritual or even recognition of its existence. It doesn't make promises or threats. It just is, was and shall be.

Like Blackbird, I am also comfortable with your beliefs. I also understood every word of them and do not denigrate you at all--because like Blackbird, your beliefs tend to civilize you, to help you do better, and do better to others. And that is more "truth" than many other "religions" on the earth today.

I can tell you that that was the extent of my atheism when I was a young man. I guess it was more agnostism, right? Anyway, I chose to belong to this group--the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints--because things happened that were significantly outside the level of noise in my perception-consciousness, and the benefits of doing it have, in my perception, grown fairly consistently over the years.

But your group, the group that understands that we really all are interconnected, that we have a responsibility to enjoy life and help build others up so they can enjoy life as well... Yeah, I'm pretty good with that.

Thanks for your long missive. I do appreciate it.

blackbirdxx wrote:

Truth is the one real magic in life...nobody needs to preach it, teach it...sell it or buy it..it never needs revelation, translation or interpretation....
... Shortened for space... they ain't nuthin more than just another blocked phone call at dinner time...i have heard it a hundred..wait. one hundred and one times..........
And as far as a mormon being a christian....got to watch out for those people claiming to be something...
the real truth about anyone comes from people who really know who they are...all the rest are just selling something...trying to prove something, or trying to be something
And hey, if somebody want's to buy something try this:
I was raised catholic 25 years, another 25 i lived in salt lake city,
I do not believe in God.....although i do try to live my life in a 'christian like' manner..ya don't have to believe in God in my world...even though i walk by the 10 commandments written on the wall a dozen times a day..ya don't have to believe there is a God to find validity in the words some dude said said that God said...
and for sure, life is a lot less confusing for no having to read all them 'scriptures' things...and having that extra 10% of my hard earned income to give me the time to spread the word of 'my god' around...a couple of the cuties at the nautical lounge, call me a good tipper

You, my friend, are one fun guy.(Or is it fungi?) You have a pretty good grasp on reality from your perspective. Unless YOU WANT TO, never let anything try to convince you differently.
But.. if YOU feel something, like there is something more, like you need something more, let me know. Otherwise...
You're alright...
Keep on keepin'on.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Carrying a Bible does not make one a Christian.
Believing what it teaches does.
The Bible teaches Jesus is uncreated, LDS say otherwise.
The Bible teaches there is only one God, LDS say otherwise.
I could go on and make a list with 100+ critical items the LDS believe contray to the Bible's explict teachings.
So they carry a Bible Big deal, that counts for nothing as they put their faith in a man made organization and not what the bible teaches.
Therefore MORMONs and the LDS faith is not Christian.
Truth matters not whay you have in your hand.

Let me ask you another question Concern, do you believe you were ever an angel ! I DO ! Even you were an angel, you have just
lost memory of that experience !

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
..........
What would it take to convince you? Would it take an improbable event? Would it take a person being healed? Would it take a scientifically proven event that hundreds saw? Or would you believe if God the Father Himself appeared to you? Ask yourself these questions.
..........
What is it for you?

A hat full of rocks. Hallelujah!

15th Dalai Lama wrote:

<quoted text>
A hat full of rocks. Hallelujah!

You say things either meant to demean or to provoke a response. If it is meant to demean, it is ignored. Otherwise, bring on your statement.

PPandF wrote:

<quoted text>
CIB - Let me ask you, so intelligent a being, Do you believe you
lived with God before you were born on this Planet ?

Are you another LDS member that wishes to distract and lead the thread done a Rabbit trail that has nothing to do with the threads premise.

That being, are Mormons Christians, which they clearly are not as their faith and beliefs are contray to the faith and beliefs of the first christians revealed in the Bible.

So as your question is irrelevant to the threads premise I can only in fair play and honesty ignore it.

Truth Matters
Blessings

PPandF wrote:

<quoted text>
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of His Father - I as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
know absolutely that this is SO ! Our faith is Christian and you
will someday stand before God and all His Holy angels and know that for yourself !

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Creator of all and was is and always will be God contray to LDS teachings- I as a member of The Church of Jesus the Christ as it is revealed in Scripture,
know absolutely that this is SO ! My faith is Christian and can be shown to be so Biblically and Historically and you
will someday stand before God and all His Holy angels and know that for yourself, you will however not be able to stay with God if on that day you have continued to put your faith in J.S. and the LDS teachings as they reject the true Jesus as revealed in scripture and you will have to depart and live Spirtually condemed and outside of God's presence.

Truth Matters

A burning in the bossom is not a measure of Truth, I am sure the Muslims that crashed planes in to the World trade center buildings had a feeling of absolute assurance as well, but they as you are wrong to believe in a feeling as a test of truth and not the word of God.

Truth Matters, God's word is truth are feelings are not.

BTW I am sure Adam and Eve felt they were right to believe Satan but they too as the LDS faith ignore God's WORD

PPandF wrote:

<quoted text>
Let me ask you another question Concern, do you believe you were ever an angel ! I DO ! Even you were an angel, you have just
lost memory of that experience !

That nice you keep following that rabbit down his hole to Alice in wonderland. LOL get it Alice

You can't remember it, Jesus never taught it nor did his Apostles yet you think its true.

Yet again you do not test your beliefs in light of the Word of God to your demise.

Blessings

15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
A hat full of rocks. Hallelujah!

""You say things either meant to demean or to provoke a response. If it is meant to demean, it is ignored. Otherwise, bring on your statement.""

Naw..i just think he was trying to be funny...that's kinda what comedians do...exaggerate a little....change the facts..just a little...and sometimes things can be humorous...to some people anyway...

And then there are other people who can find humor in the just the facts..........

""Smith would put a stone in a white stovepipe hat and would then "see the required information in reflections given off by the stone".""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr .

That seems to be a rather incomplete statement...

Did he have to put the hat on top of his head to see the reflections?

Or did he put the hat over his face and look into it?

Stovepipe hats,
white ones anyway, tend to be rather tall, and i would think it would be rather difficult to see a reflection, from a single stone all the way at the bottom (the bottom, actually being the top because the hat would have to be upside down....else ways the the stone would simply fall out) of the hat without placing ones face directly
into the hat...but that might actually be helpful in eliminating reflections from sunlight, or any other unwanted sources..

Or did he actually put the stone on top of his head, and then place the hat back on his head? He could have placed the stone in he hat, and then placed the hat of his head, but that, depending upon the size of the stone, might cause unwanted injury.

While that seems to be what that particular statement has indicated, the difficulty in seeing a reflection from something on top of ones head
seems to be rather high,

unless one were to use a mirror,
but then the reflection becomes a reflection of a reflection.....which would make all information
gathered in this manner completely backwards from
the true facts.....

And then there is the difficulty of being able to see anything through the material of the hat...

And even with today's technology, that has a high factor of difficulty.....

Maybe he had a hat with a hole or a window in it...
But who would wear a hat like that....people would
think you are weird..and even laugh at you....

Maybe my source of information is flawed in some way....but it is wikipedia, and i have always found information there sufficiently valid...but it is an encyclopedia of the people....and it is possible to chance that information....with proper documentation....

Perhaps someone might be able to offer an explanation as to just how this particular sequence of events transpired...with proper documentation of course, and some kind of cross reference from an independent source always gives validity to ny statement...:)

We're Christians just like you!”
By Bill McKeever

When speaking to our Mormon friends about religious issues, it is not uncommon to hear them tell us,“We’re Christians just like you.” There could be many reasons for a response like this. Perhaps the Mormon with whom you are speaking does not really understand what Christians have believed over the centuries, or it could be that they are not really familiar with the positions of their own church. It could be that because both groups share a desire to live moral lives that this qualifies them as “Christian.” However, this conclusion is refuted by the fact that many religions emphasize wholesome living as a part of their beliefs. Christianity, as a religious faith, is known by its teachings (doctrine) and not necessarily by the behavior of its adherents (though we certainly hope that a Christian’s faith is reflected in their practice).

One thing we have found in most cases is it is very rare for the average Latter-day Saint to fully explain the unique teachings of Mormonism. In the LDS Church it is taught that milk must be given before meat. Since many Mormons know that some of their unique teachings will be questioned by their evangelical acquaintances, they often give an explanation of the LDS faith that is less than precise.

It is difficult to comprehend why Mormons would say they are Christians “just like us” given that the foundation of their church presupposes that all professing Christian churches outside of the LDS Church are in a state of apostasy. Do Mormons who make this claim really think they too are “apostates”? Putting that aside, you need to ask yourself some important questions before automatically accepting the notion that the differences separating Christians from Mormons are insignificant. For instance, if your Mormon friend is really a “Christian just like you,” does that mean you believe:

CONT...

God was not always God?
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught,

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345; also cited in Gospel Principles, p.305).

In contrast to this, Psalm 90:2 states,“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you have formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”

God is a glorified, perfected human being with a body of flesh and bones?
According to Joseph Smith,

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret, if the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345. Also cited in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p.129).
The Doctrines of Covenants, considered to be scripture by Latter-day Saints, teaches,“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's”(130:22).

Jesus taught that God the Father was not a man at all. In fact, John 4:24 records Jesus saying,“God is spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

God is only one among many Gods?
Joseph Smith said,“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years”(Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.35).

Brigham Young, the second president of the LDS Church, once stated,

“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation”(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:334, October 8, 1859).
However, Isaiah 44:6,8 tells us that the God of the Bible knows of no other Gods.“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.”

cont...

Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer?
12th Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball wrote,

“Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah.”(Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).

Since The New Testament claims that it was through Jesus all things were created (John 1:3; Colossian 1:16, 17), it is difficult to assume such a familial relationship. Lucifer is described as an angel and angels, according to Psalm 148:1-5, are created beings, not pro-created beings in a sexual sense.

Jesus is the literal “Son of God” who was begotten naturally by an immortal Father?
In a pamphlet published by the LDS Church First Presidency, it says:

“Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior”("The Father and The Son; A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve," June 30, 1916. Reprinted in Articles of Faith, p. 421).

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that God stepped down from His throne to “join with one who is finite and mortal in bringing forth,‘after the manner of the flesh,’ the Mortal Messiah”(Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, 1:315).

The Bible describes the incarnation of Christ as a miracle known as the Virgin Birth. Mary, the mother of Jesus, became pregnant without the aid of man, mortal or otherwise (Luke 2:35).

Christians are saved by grace coupled with works?
The Book of Mormon teaches in 2 Nephi 25:23,“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

President Spencer W. Kimball said,

“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation”(12th Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.206; also cited in The Book of Mormon Student Manual, religion 121 and 122, 1996, p.36).

Though Christians are saved “unto good works”(Ephesians 2:10), the good works of a Christians do not justify (or make right) the believer before God. The apostle Paul made this very clear when he wrote,“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast”(Ephesians 2:8-9).

cont...

Grace is given by God only after a person has denied themselves of all ungodliness?
Writing for the Mormon magazine Ensign, BYU professor Clyde J. Williams said,

“The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi:‘We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’(2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to ‘come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.’ When we deny ourselves ‘of all ungodliness,’ then and only ‘then is his grace sufficient’ for us (Moroni 10:32)”(“Plain and Precious Truths Restored,” Ensign, October 2006, p.53).
Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote,“And unless men have the agency to choose to do good and work righteousness—and, in fact, do so—they cannot be saved. There is no other way”(The Mortal Messiah 1:406).

However, in his pastoral epistle to Titus, the apostle Paul wrote that a believer’s salvation was “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” He went on to write that this great kindness was “shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life”(Titus 3:5-7).

Humans can become Gods?
According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism,

“Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term ‘godhood’ denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is”(2:553).

Brigham Young declared,

“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is”(Brigham Young, August 8, 1852, Journal of Discourses 3:93).

Historically, such a notion has been considered blasphemous by Christians. Never have Christians taught that mankind has the capacity to become ontologically like God. As God Himself said through the prophet Isaiah,“Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”(Isaiah 43:10).

cont...

Mankind must believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God in order to get into heaven?
“There is no greater prophet in any dispensation than Joseph Smith… Joseph Smith was a prophet, and all the calumny and aspirations to the contrary cannot controvert that fact. Anyone who has concern for the welfare of his eternal soul should give attention to this message. Every man who has lived since the days of Joseph Smith is subject to accepting him as a prophet of God in order to enter into our Heavenly father’s presence”(A. Theodore Tuttle,“Joseph Smith re-established fullness of true gospel, Church,” Church News, March 17, 2001, p.14).

This concurs with what Brigham Young said in 1859:

“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”(Brigham Young, October 9, 1859, Journal of Discourses 7:289).

The Bible declares that Jesus is the Christian’s living prophet and it is Jesus whom Christians must listen to and obey (Deuteronomy 18:15; John 5:46; 6:44; 7:40; Acts 3:22, 23; 7:37; Hebrews 1:1-2). Judgment has been given to Jesus alone by authority of the Father.“For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son”(John 5:22).

Christianity ceased to exist after the death of the Twelve Apostles?
According to the LDS Church manual Gospel Principles,

“One by one, the Apostles were killed. Because of the persecution, surviving Apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who were dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had authority to direct the scattered branches of the Church. The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy”(Gospel Principles, p.105, emphasis theirs).

But Jesus promised to be with His Church unto the “end of the world (or age)”(Matthew 28:20).

cont...

"I believe, since Jesus Christ took upon Himself the calling, office,"
What's that?
"and actually not only paid for the repentant, but for the UNrepentant, that all they need to do is call upon Him (like the brazen serpent in the wilderness)"
Well he died for us all while we were still sinners. Yes He died for the unrepentant too, and your right, all they need to do is call out. If they don't, then they won't receive His grace.
"He prepaid, if you will, an INFINITE sacrifice. That's a hard thing to understand, because OUR sins would cause great pain to us is we needed to pay for them."
Absolutely. What do you mean by pre-paid?
"Anyway, since He took upon Himself this infinite atonement and paid the infinite price, not only His death, but the unbelievable suffering while in the flesh that would squash us like a bug, He is THE Son, the third member of the Godhead."
I say 2nd. The Father sent Jesus, The father and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.
"Now, I also believe we are ALL children of our Heavenly Father. I believe in an anthropomorphic God, I believe the Father and the Son look surprisingly similar. I believe that we are literally children of a loving Father, so we are growing up to be part of this family."
Except for the anthropomorphic part, yup, except the father son thing is more a description of relationship than anything.
"Now, does that mean that I believe somehow that there are multiple Jesus's running around out there? No. I believe his calling, perfect behavior on earth, sacrifice, and so on made it possible for Him to "own" us..to truly be our God without taking away from the Father.
Even though his human characteristics still shine through, his perfected body is who He is. To say we believe in many Sons of God is a logical fallacy, as we use His perfection He has attained to allow us to progress along the Path.
I understand it is different, and I just wanted to elucidate."
Okay, but the question was, if Jesus is the only son, how can we also be the Fathers spiritual children.

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
Now, we believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. It is an article of faith for us. Conversely, we believe that we are in charge, pertaining to our salvation, to accept the redemption of Christ or not. Since we can choose to ACCEPT the Gospel and Christ's Atonement, isn't it logical that we then can REJECT it after we have accepted it? Free will has something to do with it, here. Don't you think?

Absolutely. Perhaps one may reject it. However, if someone truly knew what was at stake, why would they not. But that's just my own reasoning. I'm open to this, but I would say, yes they could reject it. However I may be wrong.

But I don't know what this has to do with my response?

Actually, in regards to the LDS anthropomorphic understanding of God... how can a being of flesh and bone be everywhere at once (Psa 139:7-8), or dwell within all believers?
1 John 4:15 - If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Creator of all and was is and always will be God contray to LDS teachings- I as a member of The Church of Jesus the Christ as it is revealed in Scripture,
know absolutely that this is SO ! My faith is Christian and can be shown to be so Biblically and Historically and you
will someday stand before God and all His Holy angels and know that for yourself, you will however not be able to stay with God if on that day you have continued to put your faith in J.S. and the LDS teachings as they reject the true Jesus as revealed in scripture and you will have to depart and live Spirtually condemed and outside of God's presence.
Truth Matters
A burning in the bossom is not a measure of Truth, I am sure the Muslims that crashed planes in to the World trade center buildings had a feeling of absolute assurance as well, but they as you are wrong to believe in a feeling as a test of truth and not the word of God.
Truth Matters, God's word is truth are feelings are not.
BTW I am sure Adam and Eve felt they were right to believe Satan but they too as the LDS faith ignore God's WORD

Truth matters is correct, you do not know the truth in its entire
realm, you are to proud and arrogant... you are not a Prophet of
God, but a mere 'Professor of religion'- I am thankful for True
Prophets - that understand the things of God for His revealing
His truth to them ! Amos 3: 7. Jesus Christ is the Son of Our
Father in Heaven, our pre-existent life with Him is a reality...
you will some day understand. Concern, we all have a lot to learn
and Prophets of God teach us... that is from the Bible ! Jesus Christ through His obedience to His Father was given all that His
Father has, that is from our Bible also, intelligence is eternal
with God, and there are various intelligences of degree. Not all
rise to become piano prodogies, or Prophets !

Please explain the importance of angels in the LDS church.