Mormons: We are Christians, too

Go ask Alice wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not arrogant at all. I never said "I" could give your heart... although I did make a typo, it was supposed to say "If you give your heart, not If give"...but you should have been able to figure that out. You said you already gave your heart to Christ, but it sure doesn't sound like it, try again. May the peace of the Lord be with you.

Still unwilling to admit aftere all the evidence you posted to Howie and not Humor.

Again your Pride and Arrogance know no limits.

Sad for you

Blessings

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
The Bible says the can't be and God's word the Bible was here before Google and will be here after Google is gone.
Amazing you make your source of Truth Google. LOL
Again God defines what is and what is not a Christian by your defintion above Hindus are Christians too as they follow a Jesus and believe he was A god.
Your post is dumb to say the least.
Blessings

Well guy, there is just no pleasing you now is there. That is true about Goggle but also Google provides everything written in the Bible for referance online. Line for line. Now I happen to know a couple of your average day Mormons. Nice people! When I see a person going to church on a Sunday carrying a Bible, I think Christian. These two Mormons carry Bibles, never mind the fact they also carry the B of M. I've been to a LDS Church, most of the preaching came out of this here Bible, with non conflicking ref from the Book of Mormon at times. Now I have nothing to do with the D&C of their church yet I found nothing at meeting that went against the Lord in their preaching. EXCEPT, a little long wind for my tastes. The grist I guess is the fact, that if a person believes their Christian, acts Christian, conducts their life as Christian. Wouldn't that make them Christian. No matter what Church they attended? My question to you is: Have you ever been to a LDS Church and attended services? Face to face with the issues of their preaching? "OR" is this some kind of hersay case that you just had to jump the band wagon for personal glory. I'm not Mormon but, I do protect their right to worship as they believe. I give you no Blessing because you come across as a Heritic.

Howie in Holland wrote:

<quoted text>
Well guy, there is just no pleasing you now is there. That is true about Goggle but also Google provides everything written in the Bible for referance online. Line for line. Now I happen to know a couple of your average day Mormons. Nice people! When I see a person going to church on a Sunday carrying a Bible, I think Christian. These two Mormons carry Bibles, never mind the fact they also carry the B of M. I've been to a LDS Church, most of the preaching came out of this here Bible, with non conflicking ref from the Book of Mormon at times. Now I have nothing to do with the D&C of their church yet I found nothing at meeting that went against the Lord in their preaching. EXCEPT, a little long wind for my tastes. The grist I guess is the fact, that if a person believes their Christian, acts Christian, conducts their life as Christian. Wouldn't that make them Christian. No matter what Church they attended? My question to you is: Have you ever been to a LDS Church and attended services? Face to face with the issues of their preaching? "OR" is this some kind of hersay case that you just had to jump the band wagon for personal glory. I'm not Mormon but, I do protect their right to worship as they believe. I give you no Blessing because you come across as a Heritic.

Thanks, kindly, Howie.

humor me here wrote:

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Thanks, kindly, Howie.

Your welcome! I only told "FACT". There is a difference from Truth. Because something is true doesn't make it fact. To you I send Blessings. Have a great evening! H.....

Winning the Battle and Not Knowing It? Part 2
by Justin Hart

This is the second in a series of articles examining the recent dialogue between anti-Mormon proponents and Mormon apologists.

In 1997, a year before Owen and Mosser published their article, another pair of scholars (a very unlikely pair) attempted an unprecedented feat: a full length book on Evangelical and Mormon beliefs. The "unprecedented" and "unlikely" part is this: one scholar is Evangelical, the other Mormon.

In one corner: Craig Blomberg (Ph.D., Aberdeen), professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary and the author of The Historical Reliability of the Gospels and Interpreting the Parables. In the other corner: Stephen Robinson (Ph.D., Duke), professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University and the author of Are Mormons Christians? and Believing Christ. Under the usual rules of engagement, the gloves would come off and we would hear the words: "Let's get ready to rumble!"

Astoundingly, and to the chagrin of many a rhetorical boxer, the book is a courageous attempt at "listening" to the other side, and explaining one's own beliefs. In the book: How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, Blomberg and Robinson tackle four general topics: the Scriptures, God and Deification, Christ and the Trinity, and Salvation. Each author takes up his pen for half of each chapter, discussing their respective religion's viewpoint, responding to perceived "misconceptions" that the other side has, and co-authoring a conclusion to each topic.

The result is an excellent resource for Mormons and Evangelicals to identify common grounds for discussion. Furthermore, the book dispels common "caricatures" about each other's faiths that have grown increasingly un-Christian over the past decade. Most importantly, the book becomes the first major dialogue between a recognized Evangelical scholar and his Mormon counterpart.

As Robinson points out in his introduction: "Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals do not understand each other very well, and much of what we say about each other is untrue." (pg10) He notes that previous dialogue "has been dominated by those on both sides having the least training or the worst motives" (pg11). Blomberg finds these past misunderstandings and misinterpretations understandable:

If an immensely successful game company cannot distinguish between nineteenth- and twentieth-century Mormonism [referring to a historical trivia game that claims Mormons still practice polygamy], and if many in the popular press cannot distinguish between Jim Bakker and Billy Graham, is it any wonder that grassroots Evangelicals and Mormons in churches around our country seem similarly confused?[pg23]

The authors hope the book will start a new dialogue that will "move us beyond the impasse of previous polemics, recognizing our areas of agreement and clarifying the nature of our disagreements." [pg32]

While there are a myriad of well-produced points from both authors in defense of their beliefs, there is no knock-out, no split-decision and no panel of judges to declare the blue or red square the winner. As Robinson concludes:

The purpose of this book is neither to attack nor to defend—there will be no winner and no loser at the end of it. The purpose of this book is to explain and to educate—at last to hear and to tell the truth about each other.[pg 21]

An excellent example of this dialogue can be found in their discussion on salvation. The perceived differences between the faiths can be poignantly glaring (e.g. Evangelical and Mormon perspectives on exaltation). But within the same theme, typical "bashing" topics such as "saved by grace or works?" turn out to be mostly rhetorical.

In their joint conclusion to the chapter, Blomberg and Robinson point out that Evangelicals see Mormons placing too much weight on the works we must perform to be saved, while Mormons see Evangelicals elevating grace to where no works are necessary. In reality, the two see nearly eye-to-eye on the issue, but couch their language in differing terms. As Robinson notes:

Unless Mormons and Evangelicals make greater efforts to investigate what the other means… we shall remain, to paraphrase Twain, two peoples divided by a common language.[pg 14]

While the results of this book are exciting and laudable, the reaction to the book from some corners is not. As the authors note in the book's final chapter: "We have found many in our respective circles who are suspicious of the project, some even encouraging us to abandon it" [pg 190].

Soon after its publication, a prominent head of an evangelical organization declared the book to be "an abomination". Evangelical bookstores started efforts to boycott the book and the publisher. Still others wondered aloud: "Are we to be seeking this kind of dialogue?" Even Deseret Book pulled its backing from the project which was originally intended to be a joint publication with InterVarsity Press [source]. Clearly, this was new ground for all the parties involved. The boat was definitely rocking.

For all the controversy around it, this book, as we will see in next week's article, has spawned some of the most exciting, forthright and positive dialogue that our two faiths have ever witnessed.

Next week: Messrs. Owen and Mosser return to our story and publish an article in, what!? a Mormon publication ?! Stay tuned.

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
Still unwilling to admit aftere all the evidence you posted to Howie and not Humor.
Again your Pride and Arrogance know no limits.
Sad for you
Blessings

Your ego becomes more unbearable every day.

Go ask Alice wrote:

<quoted text>
Your ego becomes more unbearable every day.

Let it go...He's just not to get worked up over. He does this to get a rise out of people and you are playing into his hand. Ignore him. Let's talk about why you should be a Mormon...

(is the microphone on? Did I say that out loud..?) LOL

humor me here wrote:

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Let it go...He's just not to get worked up over. He does this to get a rise out of people and you are playing into his hand. Ignore him. Let's talk about why you should be a Mormon...
(is the microphone on? Did I say that out loud..?) LOL

Thanks HM. You are 100% right and I will take your advice. Your post made me smile today.

Howie in Holland wrote:

<quoted text>
Your welcome! I only told "FACT". There is a difference from Truth. Because something is true doesn't make it fact. To you I send Blessings. Have a great evening! H.....

Is not the truth simply the singular collection of facts?
"And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" Doctrine and Covenants 93:24

Given the above, it would seem that all truth is factual but not every fact is truth. It would also follow that unless one knows all things that are, were and shall be, one can not know truth. I know of no one who can claim to know truth.

Dagobert II wrote:

<quoted text>
Is not the truth simply the singular collection of facts?
"And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" Doctrine and Covenants 93:24
Given the above, it would seem that all truth is factual but not every fact is truth. It would also follow that unless one knows all things that are, were and shall be, one can not know truth. I know of no one who can claim to know truth.

Wow...some philosophy thrown in at no extra charge!

How about this:

There are different measurements of truth. Truth remains the same. For example, a dozen eggs is, a dozen eggs. 12 eggs.

A gallon of milk is a gallon of milk, right? Wrong. Measure 15 gallons of milk and you will get 15 differnt answers. Milk has the same consistency, right? Nope.

Water...You've been in places that you can't drink the water, right? And places that the water tastes wonderful.

How about that truth thing? I stand up and testify to my fellow Church members that "The Church is true..." When, if I were to be honest with myself,(and a little OCD) I should say "I believe that the Church is the most correct repository on this earth for the doctrines that can provide salvation to mankind."

Now, "Salvation?" That's a very squishy term, as well. Ask 40 members of all types of churches, Christian and not, to define "salvation."

You'll get 40 answers.

SO, where do we get off saying ANYTHING is true? Really, we have no proof, and anything we say is either circumstantial, second hand, or passed down the line.

But this IS true...

Sometime in almost EVERYONE's life, that person will look around and one or more of these four questions:

1. Is this all there is?

2. Where did I come from?

3. What happens when I die?

4. Is/was there a purpose to my life?

And the yearning for an answer to those questions is what drives us to believe in Christ. Or Shiva. Or the aliens in Scientology.

Truth? We tend to misinterpret things pretty badly. I tell you this. I am a full fledged Temple going Latter day Saint, and for a moment, assume we are right about everything we say, ok?

I still bet Christ is closing his eyes and shaking His head sometimes, saying "I did NOT tell you to do that...Why are you doing that?"

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>

But this IS true...
Sometime in almost EVERYONE's life, that person will look around and one or more of these four questions:
1. Is this all there is?
2. Where did I come from?
3. What happens when I die?
4. Is/was there a purpose to my life?

My daddy was fond of saying, "People in Hell want ice water." Just 'cause folks 'yearn' for an answer doesn't mean that one exists, though its a great motive for the creation of 'answers' that will satisfy those 'yearnings'.

For myself, when I don't know, I'm satisfied with knowing that I don't know and feel no need to claim knowledge that I don't really have. I find it quite amusing when folks do claim to know things they really don't know.

Consequently, the early Apostle's Creed had the, eventually controversial, mention of the descent of Christ into hell:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
born of the Virgin Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God the Father Almighty.
From thence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead...

The Nicene Creed, which followed the Apostle's Creed, removed the mention of the decent into hell.

Dagobert II wrote:

<quoted text>
My daddy was fond of saying, "People in Hell want ice water." Just 'cause folks 'yearn' for an answer doesn't mean that one exists, though its a great motive for the creation of 'answers' that will satisfy those 'yearnings'.
For myself, when I don't know, I'm satisfied with knowing that I don't know and feel no need to claim knowledge that I don't really have. I find it quite amusing when folks do claim to know things they really don't know.

Psychologically it's called two things:

First, we, as human beings are pattern seekers. Secondly, we seek patterns in what could be called the "noise level" of consciousness. For example: Even though an event was a statistical outlier and will never repeated, and it absolutely doesn't indicate a trend; it must mean something profound"

All religions have similar concepts. Even though I fully believe in the LDS Church, there are "mormon myths" I constantly fight. They are the cute, perhaps faith-promoting, stories that help people that "don't think" get through their day.

Let me ask you a question though I ask it of a lot of folks like you, as it was asked of me about thirty seven years ago last month.

What would it take to convince you? Would it take an improbable event? Would it take a person being healed? Would it take a scientifically proven event that hundreds saw? Or would you believe if God the Father Himself appeared to you? Ask yourself these questions.

I'm not trying to be snide or to bait you in any way. There is SOME LEVEL everyone will be convinced of the presence of God.

What is it for you?

humor me here wrote:

<quoted text>
Psychologically it's called two things:
First, we, as human beings are pattern seekers. Secondly, we seek patterns in what could be called the "noise level" of consciousness. For example: Even though an event was a statistical outlier and will never repeated, and it absolutely doesn't indicate a trend; it must mean something profound"
All religions have similar concepts. Even though I fully believe in the LDS Church, there are "mormon myths" I constantly fight. They are the cute, perhaps faith-promoting, stories that help people that "don't think" get through their day.
Let me ask you a question though I ask it of a lot of folks like you, as it was asked of me about thirty seven years ago last month.
What would it take to convince you? Would it take an improbable event? Would it take a person being healed? Would it take a scientifically proven event that hundreds saw? Or would you believe if God the Father Himself appeared to you? Ask yourself these questions.
I'm not trying to be snide or to bait you in any way. There is SOME LEVEL everyone will be convinced of the presence of God.
What is it for you?

Yes, we humans seek pattern and where no pattern exists, we'll create one hence the ice cream castles and bunnies we see in clouds or the 'voices' ghost hunters hear in their electric voice phenomena.

Since you ask what it would take for me to believe in a god I would say that the first step would be to define divinity.

If one were to offer the anthropomorphic "As man is, God once was, as God is man may be", I'd not be impressed, no matter how unsure Hinckley may have been about the concept. A human, even a highly advanced human, is still only a human. There are many more things in existence than humans.

Divinity, in my mind, is truth. To be truth, Divinity must be the summation of all existence without regard to time. The summation of all existence can not be confined to a single human, all humanity, all life or even all of the solar system. All means all existence without regard to time.

There can not be a separate realm of evil or outer darkness of existence. In Divinity there can only be the summation of all existence, if such a thing as Divinity exists.

If Divinity is the summation of existence and the summation of existence is truth, then no one has to convince me of the existence of the summation of existence, whatever that may be. Where I get suspicious is when folks start telling me they know the nature of the summation of existence. No one can know that unless they are the summation of existence themselves.

I don't think I'm the summation of existence, though I'm quite confident that I exist and am therefore a part of the summation of existence. I'm not quite as sure that Adolf Hitler, Mother Theresa or the planet Nibiru are part of existence though if they do, did, will, exist they are part of the Divine summation of existence as well.

While I am part of that Divine summation of existence I can not say that the Divine summation is good, evil, loves me or hates me or just plain doesn't care. As a singularity of existence there would be nothing against which to compare itself so terms such as good, evil, loving or hateful would really be irrelevant. All that can be said about existence is that it exists and that comes pretty close to the description Moses received from his God when he asked what he should call it.

So, since you asked, I already believe in existence and the summation of existence is my definition of Divinity. My Deity doesn't demand worship, prayer, ritual or even recognition of its existence. It doesn't make promises or threats. It just is, was and shall be.

Dagobert II wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, we humans seek pattern and where no pattern exists, we'll create one hence the ice cream castles and bunnies we see in clouds or the 'voices' ghost hunters hear in their electric voice phenomena.
Since you ask what it would take for me to believe in a god I would say that the first step would be to define divinity.
If one were to offer the anthropomorphic "As man is, God once was, as God is man may be", I'd not be impressed, no matter how unsure Hinckley may have been about the concept. A human, even a highly advanced human, is still only a human. There are many more things in existence than humans.
Divinity, in my mind, is truth. To be truth, Divinity must be the summation of all existence without regard to time. The summation of all existence can not be confined to a single human, all humanity, all life or even all of the solar system. All means all existence without regard to time.
There can not be a separate realm of evil or outer darkness of existence. In Divinity there can only be the summation of all existence, if such a thing as Divinity exists.
If Divinity is the summation of existence and the summation of existence is truth, then no one has to convince me of the existence of the summation of existence, whatever that may be. Where I get suspicious is when folks start telling me they know the nature of the summation of existence. No one can know that unless they are the summation of existence themselves.
I don't think I'm the summation of existence, though I'm quite confident that I exist and am therefore a part of the summation of existence. I'm not quite as sure that Adolf Hitler, Mother Theresa or the planet Nibiru are part of existence though if they do, did, will, exist they are part of the Divine summation of existence as well.
While I am part of that Divine summation of existence I can not say that the Divine summation is good, evil, loves me or hates me or just plain doesn't care. As a singularity of existence there would be nothing against which to compare itself so terms such as good, evil, loving or hateful would really be irrelevant. All that can be said about existence is that it exists and that comes pretty close to the description Moses received from his God when he asked what he should call it.
So, since you asked, I already believe in existence and the summation of existence is my definition of Divinity. My Deity doesn't demand worship, prayer, ritual or even recognition of its existence. It doesn't make promises or threats. It just is, was and shall be.

That's plenty interesting...those are your own thoughts and words, right....there isn't some obscure group out there, teaching that concept is there?
Because, for whatever reason, i understood every word you wrote.
It is, pretty much my explanation for everything that was, is, and ever will be.
Simple as it is, it has all the answers...it makes all things fit, and make sense..it is based on truth, as we know it now, or a thousand years ago....and the thing that gives it true validity.....
it has no need for 'faith' or 'beliefs' or trust in words another person......

Truth is the one real magic in life...nobody needs to preach it, teach it...sell it or buy it..it never needs revelation, translation or interpretation....
I don't see no God (as religion defines the word)i have seen my share of things that i cannot explain...but just because i do not have the answers don't mean i need to spend the rest of my life thinking....'duh, i am so smart, i saw something that i just can't explain..it must be God.....and then right after that comes..."i saw God, come follow me...and right after that, it's all about "GOD said"...'God told me" and then "God told me to tell you.....
Like hey dude..i didn't hear God say nuthin...
"of course, my son, you are not a true believer...come to 'my house" and i will teach you "how' to believe...
And then it's like "hey dude, do i really have to wear these blinders..like....everywhere?? ?....they make me trip and fall and crash into things that i never knew were there....
"Yes my son, those things you could not see were evil...you must close your eyes...never look at evil...it will take you to a place and you will never find your way back........
As for that God dude...i been around for a long time...lots of people tell me they seen him..and talked to him..like all the time.....
But even when i was eating toad stools like they were pizza toppings.....i had enough grasp on reality to avoid seeing God when i had other things to deal with..like ridding motorcycle at 100 +.....and not like i think like God is a bad thing..cause he ain't...he has never pooped in my world....why should he?...Maybe bbecause i don't poop in his world, he don't poop in mine?
Maybe he don't even know me?
He can't be all that bad of a dude..people be followin him around like hes a rock star...and he seems to help a lot of people who seem to need help...and that's a great thing....
But until that God dude.....can "sell me" on his show, without using the words..
believe..faith..it is written..Got told me.......i ain't buying
And like if he is so great and good...has all the answers and wrote all the questions..
and everybody be telling me that they party with him all the time....
Hey, like hook me up..maybe his son deleted my name off the rolo-dex i don't know..never met the dude...but it's not my way to dis-respect somebody i never met..........
In the meantime....things, life, where we came from...and what is really real, seems to be something that nobody can really prove without using real, provable, cross-referenable, repeatable facts.....
and those who claim to have the answers, met the dude who has the answers,
they ain't nuthin more than just another blocked phone call at dinner time...i have heard it a hundred..wait. one hundred and one times..........
And as far as a mormon being a christian....got to watch out for those people claiming to be something...
the real truth about anyone comes from people who really know who they are...all the rest are just selling something...trying to prove something, or trying to be something
And hey, if somebody want's to buy something try this:
I was raised catholic 25 years, another 25 i lived in salt lake city,
I do not believe in God.....although i do try to live my life in a 'christian like' manner..ya don't have to believe in God in my world...even though i walk by the 10 commandments written on the wall a dozen times a day..ya don't have to believe there is a God to find validity in the words some dude said said that God said...
and for sure, life is a lot less confusing for no having to read all them 'scriptures' things...and having that extra 10% of my hard earned income to give me the time to spread the word of 'my god' around...a couple of the cuties at the nautical lounge, call me a good tipper

Howie in Holland wrote:

<quoted text>
Well guy, there is just no pleasing you now is there. That is true about Goggle but also Google provides everything written in the Bible for referance online. Line for line. Now I happen to know a couple of your average day Mormons. Nice people! When I see a person going to church on a Sunday carrying a Bible, I think Christian. These two Mormons carry Bibles, never mind the fact they also carry the B of M. I've been to a LDS Church, most of the preaching came out of this here Bible, with non conflicking ref from the Book of Mormon at times. Now I have nothing to do with the D&C of their church yet I found nothing at meeting that went against the Lord in their preaching. EXCEPT, a little long wind for my tastes. The grist I guess is the fact, that if a person believes their Christian, acts Christian, conducts their life as Christian. Wouldn't that make them Christian. No matter what Church they attended? My question to you is: Have you ever been to a LDS Church and attended services? Face to face with the issues of their preaching? "OR" is this some kind of hersay case that you just had to jump the band wagon for personal glory. I'm not Mormon but, I do protect their right to worship as they believe. I give you no Blessing because you come across as a Heritic.

Carrying a Bible does not make one a Christian.

Believing what it teaches does.

The Bible teaches Jesus is uncreated, LDS say otherwise.
The Bible teaches there is only one God, LDS say otherwise.

I could go on and make a list with 100+ critical items the LDS believe contray to the Bible's explict teachings.

So they carry a Bible Big deal, that counts for nothing as they put their faith in a man made organization and not what the bible teaches.

Therefore MORMONs and the LDS faith is not Christian.

Truth matters not whay you have in your hand.

Go ask Alice wrote:

<quoted text>
Your ego becomes more unbearable every day.

You can always leave if the heat of your Pride and lie gets unbearable.

Blessings

concerned in Brasil wrote:

<quoted text>
You can always leave if the heat of your Pride and lie gets unbearable.
Blessings

CIB - Let me ask you, so intelligent a being, Do you believe you
lived with God before you were born on this Planet ?