|
“Hats Off to God”
Since: Jun 09
3rd Rock
|
Please wait...
Dave wrote: <quoted text>
Amen.
I also pray that they will gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the Bible as it is written. Here is a scripture written in the Bible, is it true? Luke.14 [26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Is God telling us to hate even though one of His greatest commandments says to love your neighbor as you love yourself?
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
Judged:
1
Lehi wrote: <quoted text>
Here is a scripture written in the Bible, is it true?
Luke.14
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Is God telling us to hate even though one of His greatest commandments says to love your neighbor as you love yourself? This verse is a matter of priorities. When you come across a verse like that, the thing to realize is that Greek words have more meaning than what can easily be translated into English. Let's take a look at which word was used in the Greek for this. The word used was μισ έω , or miseō, mis-eh‘-o Greek has primary word parts and extentions, just like we can have. For example, love and loveless mean two different things but have the same root word, love. Here, the root was misos, and the o is the extension, which gives the word a different meaning, "to love less." By looking at the word, we can see that it is not incorrectly translated, but just not as specific as the Greek which by the nature of its language is more specific in content per word. So does it mean to hate as in to detest your mother, etc? No, it means that you should not put them before Christ. Christ should come first in your life and everything else is secondary or you cannot be His disciple. So it is not a mistranslation. You just have to make sure you understand the context.
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
Sorry, the μισ έω above was Greek text. Apparently Topix doesn't support that font.
|
|
“Hats Off to God”
Since: Jun 09
3rd Rock
|
Please wait...
Dave wrote: <quoted text>
This verse is a matter of priorities. When you come across a verse like that, the thing to realize is that Greek words have more meaning than what can easily be translated into English.
Let's take a look at which word was used in the Greek for this.
The word used was μισ έω , or miseō, mis-eh‘-o
Greek has primary word parts and extentions, just like we can have. For example, love and loveless mean two different things but have the same root word, love.
Here, the root was misos, and the o is the extension, which gives the word a different meaning, "to love less."
By looking at the word, we can see that it is not incorrectly translated, but just not as specific as the Greek which by the nature of its language is more specific in content per word.
So does it mean to hate as in to detest your mother, etc? No, it means that you should not put them before Christ. Christ should come first in your life and everything else is secondary or you cannot be His disciple. So it is not a mistranslation. You just have to make sure you understand the context. Thanks for the explanation, I was faced with this before and was glad to see it really means "to love less" but the fact that it plainly states "hate" is troubling. Some people who don't/didn't have the Greek translation would be confused for sure. So in my opinion it is translated incorrectly as it plainly says one thing but means another. The scriptures should not confuse anyone, again in my opinion.
|
|
concerned in Brasil
Domingos Martins, Brazil
|
Judged:
1
Lehi wrote: <quoted text>
Thanks for the explanation, I was faced with this before and was glad to see it really means "to love less" but the fact that it plainly states "hate" is troubling. Some people who don't/didn't have the Greek translation would be confused for sure. So in my opinion it is translated incorrectly as it plainly says one thing but means another. The scriptures should not confuse anyone, again in my opinion. Really so when one says as I do I hate that, in reference to one of my wifes habits have I stopped loving Her??? A. NO. If you are open minded and willing to actuallay see that we use the word HATE in the english language to different degrees and in different senses then it is only common sense the Greek has the same. So In context when the Bible teaches us to Love our fellow man, love our Mohter and Father and Honor them, and then says anyone who does not hate his mother and father for me (Jesus) we can clearly see the word is being used in a different sense then normally. If one wishes to ignore the rest of the Bible and intrepret the phrase with out its context, with out the rest of the Bilbe and pretend the rest of the Bible does not exist, well one is only making a straw man and there is no truth in that. Truth Matters
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
I can see where you'd form that opinion.
If you've ever studied another language, you'll know that some words just don't translate well at all. Such is the case here.
An interesting Bible study is to go through the Bible and find every time the word "love" is used. There are different words for "love" in the Greek language that we don't have in English, and studying the words from the Greek perspective is a wonderful way to get more from scripture than ever before.
|
|
concerned in Brasil
Domingos Martins, Brazil
|
Dave wrote: I can see where you'd form that opinion.
If you've ever studied another language, you'll know that some words just don't translate well at all. Such is the case here.
An interesting Bible study is to go through the Bible and find every time the word "love" is used. There are different words for "love" in the Greek language that we don't have in English, and studying the words from the Greek perspective is a wonderful way to get more from scripture than ever before. If this was meant for me then this is my response. I grew up in Canada speaking English at home and studying French for all my schooling. I am married to a Brazilian and I speak and write Portuguese. I am trilingual and most Canadians are at least bilingual if not Trilingual as our most Europeans. When one has that behind them one usually has learned that the sense and the context of the word is more important than the word itself. I don't believe with a Good English translation such as the NIV a thought for thought translation or the NASB a more of a word for word translation one losses much if anything going from the Greek to the English as the Bible speaks on the important things such as love and hate not once but 10s if not 100s of times in different contexts, situations and senses so if one is willing to read the whole of scripture one will get the meaning that God truly intended, if one is spirit filled of course to start with. If this were not possible then God shows favoritism as one people group would have an advantage over the next but thank God his word says he does not. God knows how to use our imperfect languages to preserve his WORD, he says so and I believe him. Don't get me wrong I have my lexicons but I find that some people get high on themselves thinking the Greek gives them an advantage over others, sorry I don't believe it’s so and that is coming from someone who knows three languages, and BTW lots of Dutch as well as my Mom's family were all Dutch speaking immigrants. Again if one takes LOVE searchs it in Pardis one gets over 300+ verses in the OT alone thats Hebrew to Greek to English in most cases but the number of times and the number of contexts and senses that go along with that make it statistically impossible to lose the meaning if takes in all of the verses with love. With Hate over 70+ vereses. Again if one takes only one verse on Hate and Love and ignores the remaining 300+ one will lose out, but if one takes all of scripture it will not happen IMHO.
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
concerned in Brasil wrote: <quoted text>
If this was meant for me then this is my response.
I grew up in Canada speaking English at home and studying French for all my schooling.
I am married to a Brazilian and I speak and write Portuguese.
I am trilingual and most Canadians are at least bilingual if not Trilingual as our most Europeans.
When one has that behind them one usually has learned that the sense and the context of the word is more important than the word itself.
I don't believe with a Good English translation such as the NIV a thought for thought translation or the NASB a more of a word for word translation one losses much if anything going from the Greek to the English as the Bible speaks on the important things such as love and hate not once but 10s if not 100s of times in different contexts, situations and senses so if one is willing to read the whole of scripture one will get the meaning that God truly intended, if one is spirit filled of course to start with.
If this were not possible then God shows favoritism as one people group would have an advantage over the next but thank God his word says he does not. God knows how to use our imperfect languages to preserve his WORD, he says so and I believe him.
Don't get me wrong I have my lexicons but I find that some people get high on themselves thinking the Greek gives them an advantage over others, sorry I don't believe it’s so and that is coming from someone who knows three languages, and BTW lots of Dutch as well as my Mom's family were all Dutch speaking immigrants.
Again if one takes LOVE searchs it in Pardis one gets over 300+ verses in the OT alone thats Hebrew to Greek to English in most cases but the number of times and the number of contexts and senses that go along with that make it statistically impossible to lose the meaning if takes in all of the verses with love. With Hate over 70+ vereses.
Again if one takes only one verse on Hate and Love and ignores the remaining 300+ one will lose out, but if one takes all of scripture it will not happen IMHO. Actually, I was talking to KM, but thanks for your insight. I do agree that you have to take it in context, which is still why I don't say it was a mistranslation. It wasn't. Many people will take a verse as is and not even attempt to put it in context and that's how many are led astray.
|
|
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
Dave wrote: <quoted text>
Actually, I was talking to KM, but thanks for your insight.
I do agree that you have to take it in context, which is still why I don't say it was a mistranslation. It wasn't.
Many people will take a verse as is and not even attempt to put it in context and that's how many are led astray. Sorry, I meant Lehi, not KM.
|
|
Go ask Alice
Flushing, NY
|
The cost of being a disciple...
Luke 14:26-27 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said; if anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Does Jesus really want us to hate our families? No. Jesus was setting up an extreme contrast to make a point; our passion for Jesus should be so strong and so committed that our affection for our families could, by comparison, be considered hatred. By setting up such an exaggerated contrast, Jesus was describing the total commitment required from his disciples. We know Jesus was not literally calling us to hate our families.
The balance of Biblical teaching tells us to honor our parents and love others. Jesus was establishing priorities. We owe and unqualified loyalty and love to God. Then, because we put Him first, we are to love others.
|
|
“Hats Off to God”
Since: Jun 09
3rd Rock
|
Please wait...
concerned in Brasil wrote: <quoted text>
Really so when one says as I do I hate that, in reference to one of my wifes habits have I stopped loving Her??? A. NO. Come on now, saying you hate someone's habits isn't the same as hating them. I fully understand what was meant by the use of the word "hate" but feel it was wrong to use it in that context when it is clear that outright hate was not intended. Not everyone has a pocket Greek translation handy. How many simple minded people took that the wrong way?
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
Lehi, you're absolutely right that people could take that the wrong way. But when read in context, it makes sense even without knowing the Greek roots.
It's very dangerous to take 1 verse and single it out and take it for what it says.
Think about it this way. I could make this simple statement: "Yesterday, I was shocked."
Do you think I got electrocuted?
Well, let me put it in context. "I heard on the news that a man robbed a bank just down the street from my home. Yesterday, I was shocked. I couldn't believe it could happen so close to my home."
Different meaning. You have to read in context or be in danger of misinterpretation.
|
|
Rhyno
Brisbane, Australia
|
Lehi wrote: <quoted text>
Here is a scripture written in the Bible, is it true?
Luke.14
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Is God telling us to hate even though one of His greatest commandments says to love your neighbor as you love yourself? i would say that one should still love one another, however that love should not be grater than our love for God. In that passage Jesus' was challenging the crowds to count the cost of following him, as one can see from some of the verses that follow the one you quoted... "28 Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying,'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'" So in a sense what Jesus was saying was, you should love me more than your family. So much so that it should appear as though they hate. I'd have to do a bit of word study on that passage to confirm, but that appears to be what it's saying.
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
humor me here wrote: <quoted text>
Look at your post. Dave says I do the things he says, I will do neither. Look at what YOU wrote and tell ME what you think was so wrong. Look very carefully; you may be inculcated to skip words. I will be out working all day today, won't be back until late tonight. If you honestly haven't found them by this evening, I'll try to help. I don't know about LightBearer, but I'm sure waiting on your response to this.
|
|
concerned in Brasil
Domingos Martins, Brazil
|
Lehi wrote: <quoted text>
Come on now, saying you hate someone's habits isn't the same as hating them. I fully understand what was meant by the use of the word "hate" but feel it was wrong to use it in that context when it is clear that outright hate was not intended. Not everyone has a pocket Greek translation handy. How many simple minded people took that the wrong way? None that are Spirit lead and Spirit filled to read all the verses on love and hate. You seem to limit God and those he dwells in and through. Again you want to continue to intrepret a scripture while ignoring all else. Sorry that is being closed minded and, narrow minded. It is equal to going to the last step in buiding a model railroad, turn on power, and saying it does work the translation is wrong, yet you skipped the 20 other prevouis steps and chose to ignore they exist. Blessings BTW that is what the LDS church does all the time.
|
|
“Hats Off to God”
Since: Jun 09
3rd Rock
|
Please wait...
Dave wrote: Different meaning. You have to read in context or be in danger of misinterpretation. How many meanings does the word hate have? As I said earlier, I know what was meant in the scripture but many have been confused by this one verse. Why did King James scribes use the word "hate" and not just say "love less". Matter of fact, if the Greek translation of the word was "to love less" then how did they come up with hate?
|
|
Curious
Wartrace, TN
|
Judged:
1
What are the Salamander Letters about? Why were the Fathers worried? Was there something they were afraid about the beginnings of the church and Joesph Smith that might be damaging?
|
|
Dave
Kansas City, MO
|
Judged:
1
Lehi wrote: <quoted text>
How many meanings does the word hate have?
As I said earlier, I know what was meant in the scripture but many have been confused by this one verse. Why did King James scribes use the word "hate" and not just say "love less". Matter of fact, if the Greek translation of the word was "to love less" then how did they come up with hate? Because it's still the word hate that translates best into English. Again, you have to read it in context.
|
|
Pahoran
Auckland, New Zealand
|
Dave wrote: <quoted text>
Pahoran,
I respect your desire to defend your church, but you're denying its teachings. Really? Which ones? And if that is the case, why do you immediately change the subject and go into a long Bible-bash? Dave wrote: 2 This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the WORKS of the LAW, or by the HEARING of FAITH? Yes, and? Latter-day Saints (being Christians, a fact not disputed by anyone who has actually studied the question) regard the Law of Moses as having been fulfilled in Christ, and therefore no longer operative. Didn't you know that? Do you really think that we either do "the works of the law" or no works at all? Is your antinomianism really based upon that kind of fallacious dilemma? Now: have you actually read _Offenders for a Word_ yet? If not, you remain woefully uninformed upon the issue at hand. Mormonism is Christian and nothing else. Regards, Pahoran
|
|
Since: Oct 09
United States
|
Please wait...
Hey Humor Me Here,
Sorry I haven't gotten back with you.
I was working almost all day Saturday helping a friend of mine from my church work on his porch. Then one of the men who also was from the church had an accident with a table saw...it wasn't pretty.
He cut his thumb right above the, well, the "knuckle" and cut all the way in to his bone.
Anyway, I have absolutely NO CLUE what my "errors" and "omissions" are.
The only thing that I can see is that I might not have explained my claims well enough. But they all make sense to me. And also seem completely true in connection with the Mormon church's own claims and the claims of their "prophet" Joseph Smith.
As I asked you before, what are my omissions and errors?
In Christ,
LightBearer
|
|
Tell me when this thread is updated:
(Registration is not required)
Add to my Tracker
Send me an email
|
Sagittarius
