Creation vs Evolution

By : Dr.Peter Coles

"Inflation puts the "bang" in the big bang."

"There is very little evidence that inflation actually took place...what's more, we still don't know what would have caused it if it did. So how confident can we be that inflation is really a part of the universe's history?"

"Alan Guth cannot prove that this "inflation" actually happened nor can he suggest a compelling

physical reason why it should have".

"Within just a few years inflation had become an indispensable part cosmological theory... The only
problem was that there wasn't a shred of evidence that inflation actually happened."

"We do not know for sure if inflation ever happened, and we are certainly a long way from being able to identify the inflation. In a way we are still as confused as ever about how the universe began. But perhaps now we are now confused on a higher level and for better reasons."

Me - Folks, these quotes you read above are from an Evolutionary Astrophysicist.

Professor Robert Hazen / Comments from "Origins of Life" Lecture

"This course is unusual because at this point and time, there is so much that we do not know about life on earth."

"The origin of life is an immense complexity, and I have to tell you right up front, we don't know how life began."

"How can I tell you about the origin of life when we are so woefully ignorant of that history"


Me - Kyle Butt on the DVD "Truth Be Told" I bought from wvbs.org says that there is not one hint of them being ignorant about evolution. They teach evolution as if it is "a solid stone fact." in our school systems.

Professor Hazen continues : A MAJOR ASSUMPTION...

This course focuses exclusively on the scientific approach to the question of lifes's origins. In this lecture series, I make an ASSUMPTION that life emerged from basic raw materials through a sequence of events that was completely consistent with the natural laws of chemistry and physics.

Me- An ASSUMPTION is when I begin with an idea I cannot prove.

apologeticspress.org

poppycock!

heartandmind wrote:

poppycock!

Do you know Dr. Peter Coles or Professor Robert Hazen ?

Are you saying these very smart men are full of poppycock?



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How bout Alan Guth?

You know him?

Is this very smart man full of poppycock too?

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try taking a few palentology courses. UT has an EXCELLENT course of study as does TAMU.

i took a few courses through UT while in college. fascinating!

once you've taken a few courses, you'll understand why "poppycock" applies to your post.

An Interseting Find

Trilobites

Trilobites allegedly flourished a half-billion years before man never arrived
on the scene. On June 1, 1968, however, evolutionist William J. Meister, an
amateur fossilologist, was working near Antelope Springs, Utah, and made a
discovery that was destined to dispel that incorrect evolutionary supposition.
Working his way up the side of a mountain some 2,000 feet to a ledge above,
he broke open a slab of rock with his hammer to investigate it for fossils. Imagine
his astonishment when he “saw on one side the footprint of a human with
trilobites right in the footprint itself.The Other half of the rock slab showed an
almost perfect mold of the footprint and fossils. Amazingly the human was wearing
a sandal”(as quoted in Lammerts, 1976, pp. 186-187).

Trilobites

http://apologeticspress.org/pdfs/courses_pdf/...

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FRAUDS IN SCIENCE

The Embryonic Recapitulation Hoax

The Piltdown Hoax

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.asp...

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Evolution and Carbon -14 Dating

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.asp...

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Trilobites

http://apologeticspress.org/pdfs/courses_pdf/...

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No More Blind Dates

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.asp...

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Fishing Before The Cambrian Period

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.asp...

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heartandmind wrote:

try taking a few palentology courses. UT has an EXCELLENT course of study as does TAMU.
i took a few courses through UT while in college. fascinating!
once you've taken a few courses, you'll understand why "poppycock" applies to your post.

Maybe you should spend much more time in the Bible and much less time studying people who teach evilution. B/c the Bible does not teach eviluton.

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Apologeticspressorg wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe you should spend much more time in the Bible and much less time studying people who teach evilution. B/c the Bible does not teach eviluton.
apologeticspress.org

LOL.
maybe you shouldn't judge me for what i do know - and i won't judge you for what you don't know.
LOL.

Please, give it up. You just look foolish. Just as foolish as the flat earthers & the face on Mars people. The Earth is round, well, an oblate spheroid if you want to get really picky. Evolution exists & it shapes our world as it has for billions of years. These are facts. Most scientists understand you have sincere religious beliefs. That's all good. But leave science to the scientists. It's really quite exciting finding out something new about the distant past or when you find a new species of fossil never found before by anyone, or an entire ecosystem, filled with totally new life forms, that has no modern analogy.
If scientists can keep their religion out of science, please keep your religion out of science too. You contribute nothing to the scientific debate by doing so.

just some notes from those classes i mentioned (good thing i kept them with my other college stuff)

how is it Christian to deliberately skew the scientific record for religious purposes such as the Kentucky 'science museum' fiasco? Saying dinosaurs were on the ark & T rex was a vegetarian? ZERO data exists for that. Even the Creation Museum in Glen Rose finally admitted in print their 'evidence' they published for decades was wrong. Yet their flawed work is still used as 'evidence'. I'd love to see a boat that could hold the estimated 2000 genera of dinosaurs paleontologists estimate will eventually be found (over 570 now). 150 species of fossil elephants or 100s of species of horses. why were the 10,000+ known trilobite species & 15,000 ammonites & 100s of other groups of now extinct marine & terrestrial fossils left off the ark?
The theory of evolution of the modern cell has been helped by the advancement of modern analytical tools. Modern cell theory, even without the discovery of nannobacteria, has cells being a community of numerous separate organisms living together & benefiting from that community. Think of it like corals & the algae that feed them. One provides a home, the other feeds the colony. Only the colony is made up of tons of individual microbe types. Over billions of years, each microbe's DNA or RNA, as the case may be, becomes centralized in the nucleus.
More recent notes from article:
new field of microbiology founded by a UT geology professor, Dr. Robert Folk, has shown a new group of organisms. Nannobacteria are about 1/100 the size of the smallest previously known bacteria. They are everywhere. They live inside bacteria, inside your cells, they float in the air, they are in hot springs at 200 degrees Celsius & in ore producing thermal vents miles below the surface of the earth. They are actually FAR simpler & smaller than the smallest simplest organisms predicted by microbiologists only 10 yrs ago. They are smaller than the organelles inside of cells. He was laughed at for proposing the existence of them as fossils in italian limestones, even though he is considered the foremost expert in carbonate rocks on the planet. The carbonate rock classification is NAMED after him. Yet a couple of micro guys went & started looking for modern ones. Guess what - they're everywhere.

more:
discussion regarding the fossil record -
There are reasons that there are gaps in the fossil record. There is an entire science devoted to that: taphonomy.
Most animals that die are not preserved. They are destroyed through erosion, or hunreds of other methods. In order to become a fossil, you have to have a number of relatively rare conditions: the potential fossil must live in an area where net deposition of sediment is happening (rare on land except near volcanos or rivers), it must be buried rapidly so that it doesn't rot away, and it usually must be chemically altered rapidly so that it becomes stone so that it can survive in the ground for millions of years. Then, the sediment has to be buried so that it doesn't erode away before we can find the fossils. The chances of all of those conditions happening are extraordinarily rare. Usually all three are met in some type of environmental disturbance (land slide, flood, ash fall). And yes, large fossil beds can be formed. These conditions don't happen continually for a complete sequence of rock to be formed, except in rare instances such as lake sedimentation (In China, where all the fossil dinosaurs with feathers are being found, there is a CONTINUOUS 15 million year record of fossilization within the lake. As in year by year records of sedimentation. And yes, we can see changes in organisms within the section of sediment. It may take hundreds of years to fully research this locality, there's so much stuff to research.) In the meantime, time passes, and organisms change. In sediments such as ash falls, tens of thousands to millinos of years can pass before a preservable unit of sediment can be formed. In that time, how many generations of plants, insects, mammals, and yes, humans, would pass? For rapidly reproducing animals, you could have 25,000 generations of mice in 10,000 years. With that number of generations, there would be enough changes simply through genetic drift to account for a new species to appear, heck, even a new genus. In only 25,000 years. Plus, you are assuming the animals still live there to be fossilized. Environmental changes cause animals and plants to move their ecological ranges fast. A study in Friesenhahn Cave here in TX was able to date changes in the environment, both in temperature and environmelta makeup as a whole, simply by the changes in mouse and vole population (most of which still live today) living in the cave. A change of 300 years showed a huge change in climate. Guess what, animals moved away, and new ones moved in. A huge change in 300 years.

Paleontology CANNOT have a 'perfect' fossil record. But we have hundreds of thousands of species, and a modern record of life to work with. And the amount of information that we have is staggering. And that's what you want, a perfect record. That's what it would take for you to accept that evolution is, was, and always will be, regardless of your religious persuasion. 99 percent of the world's sediments don't get preserved. We work with what we have. If we did have it, we could prove it without a doubt. Chemists don't have to deal with this questioning of science. Or astronomers, physicists, doctors, etc. And to be questioned by one outside the field is like a quarterback getting advice on how to throw the ball from a garbageman. It has no meaning. There's no context, and it's just somebody spouting off on something they have absolutely no knowledge of.

a few more thoughts :
Life everywhere is evolving right at this minute. All you have to do is look. Viruses, bacteria, fruit flies, they evolve rapidly because their generational times are in minutes to days, and we can see those changes. Scientists have seen new species or variations appear in these organisms in the space of months to years. In most organisms, to actually visually see change, you need times in hundreds to thousands of generations, assuming you have a stable population. If there is not a stable population, such as after a huge environmemtal disturbance that kills off much of a population (disease, flood, land mass being separated from main population of an animal) then you do see rapid change, because the entire gene pool may not survive in the new population. This was shown in Hawaii about five years ago when a lava flow cut off a chunk of forest from the main forest, and a completely new species of fruit flies evolved in under 20 years. At 2 weeks per generation, that's 500 generations to change, and translates to 10,000 years for humans. What you can see change is genetic variation from generation to generation, usually showing up after 20 generations or so. Personally, I won't be around in 400 years to see any really noticeable changes. Dwarf elephants and giant rodents evolved in a few thousand years after the glaciers flooded at what time was the continental shelf, cutting off animals from the main gene pool. The 'hobbit people' in Java were cut off from the rest of Indonesia, and islands do interesting things to populations, they usually change in size fast, big or small. The new reserach done on them linking them to modern populations just doesn't fly, either. It's been publicized, but you can't link a fossil from 10,000 years ago to today's populations when those populations migrate. It's just like Kennewick Man in the Northwest. Local tribes tried to claim it as an ancestor in spite of his clearly Caucasian skeletal features.
snakes are a polyphyletic group. The have evolved multiple (at least 4) times from lizards. This can be shown in the fossil record, and with studies of modern genetics. And another small group of lizards currently has lost its front limbs, making it a 'half snake'. And the earliest snakes are sea snakes. They evolved during the Cretaceous from a swimming lizard, perhaps similar to a mosasaur. Sea snakes, cobras, constrictors, vipers, these groups are all completely separate groups of limbless lizards (really a better concept).
Another thing, did you know that essentially ALL land animal groups that have been around for 100 million years or more have evolved similar adaptations such as lizards? There are several groups of limbless amphibians as well. A bunch of them are in the fossil record. Give the planet another 30-50 million years without exterminating all life, and we'll have a legless mammal doing the same thing. It's like flight. Wherever there's an ecological niche that's not being filled, or where a new ecological niche is created, something will evolve eventually fill that niche. Pterosaurs, dragonflies, birds, flying squirrels, bats, even 200 million year old fossil flying lizards, they all fill one broad category of ecological niche. That's one of the way evolution works. No competition for resources means some animal that is able to allocate those resources will utilize it, and will adapt through time to specialize in that niche.

and a note from my professor a few yrs ago via e-mail :

as a paleontologist, I find it most amusing that many people think that the fossil record is poorly understood, or that there is conflicting or serious problems with the theory. That is so far from the case it is laughable. ALL evidence for the fossil record supports evolution, as well as the distribution of animals through time and space, molecular evolution, gene evolution throughout the entirety of life, microbiology, ecology, and so other many scientific disciplines. If somebody found a rabbit fossil in the preCambrian, for example, that single piece of evidence would call into question the entirety of the theory. No such example that contradicts evolution exists. Evolution is more understood than the theories that govern physics, electricity for example. Evolution is a living theory that constantly tests itself. If some unusual fossil is found, then relationships within a small group of fossils might have to be reevaluated within the framework of closely related organisms. But it does not disprove the theory. I freely admit that those of us who work within evolutionary theory do not communicate with the general public as well as we might. It can be very dry looking at the fossil remains of critters and plants, and most paleontologists I know are not exactly social butterfies.

and my own thoughts :
I'm just saying, use the Bible for what it's intended. It's a source for moral guidance. It's not the only source, but it's a good source. Many of the lessons are valid today, but some things have changed, and not all lessons 2000+ years old may apply today. We don't all eat a strict Hebrew diet, do we? We don't stone people for crimes.

But PLEASE don't look for science in the Bible, it's not in there, and keep the Bible out of science. They are SEPARATE fields of study, and never shall or should they be forced to meet or inhabit the same classroom. That's why they are separate fields, religious studies and natural sciences. They are not the same. A religious person can be a scientist (even a paleontologist) and vice versa, and many scientists that I know personally are religious. Stephen Jay Gould, one of the most famous paleontologists ever, was very religious. Yet he was one of the most important scientists in the last 200 years, especially in evolutionary biology. He kept his religious beliefs and scientific theories separate, because they WERE separate. I STRONGLY recommend his popular essay collections for anyone interested in life, the universe, and anything remotely scientific. Same with Einstein.You learn to integrate both viewpoints into your sense of person. If they had no problem with it, why should anyone else?

"You Creationist Are Unqualified to Discuss Such Matters!"

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"Couldn't There Have Been Exceptions to the Laws of Science?"

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"Scientist Don't Have a Clue How Life Began"

By Kyle Butt,M.A.

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Law of Biogenesis [Part 1]

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Jeff Miller, PH.D.

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Law of Biogenesis [Part2]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.asp...

Jeff Miller, PH.D.

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go find a source like a university instead of a religiously based website. then you MIGHT have a little credibility, dependent upon what university you use.

LOL.

Evilution says man did not come on the scene until recently. But let us look at what the word of God says.

*50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (Luke 11:50)

the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world

the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world

the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:(Rom. 1:20)

from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood

from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood

from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female (Mark 10:6).

from the beginning of the creation God made them

from the beginning of the creation God made them

from the beginning of the creation God made them

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Can A Christian Still be an Evolutionist?

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Christians and the Theory of Evolution

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Popular Compromises of Creation --- The Gap Theory

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The Implication of Rejecting the Literal Days of Genesis 1

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heartandmind wrote:

go find a source like a university instead of a religiously based website. then you MIGHT have a little credibility, dependent upon what university you use.
LOL.

Here is THE SOURCE.

11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;...(1Peter 4:11)

13 ... when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Thess.1:13)

gbntv.org

thegospelofchrist.com

Why Are Dinosaurs Not Mentioned in the Bible?

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Behemoth: A Tail Like A Cedar?

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Dinosaurs and Humans ­----> Together

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Soft tissue From A Dinosaur?

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Haeckel: The Legacy of a Lie

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Shadows of Evolution

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apPubPage.asp...

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