Galtier may show films again

K of the Milky Way wrote:

A block of retail doesn't mean a convenience store in a downtown building or that little desk inside the Wells Fargo museum that sells Wells Fargo mugs. It also doesn't mean ... a Jamba Juice store. The most successful and discussed retail outlets in Minneapolis are, sadly enough, Sex World and Lickety Split.

The standard convenience store, Subway, and coffee shop that are located in nearly every building in downtown Minneapolis don't make the cut for me...

I can only imagine the outrage if Macy's tried to cut back at the store though.(LIKE THEY HAVE IN ST. PAUL, PERHAPS?)

Here we go again. She's now trying to tell us what qualifies as retail for HER! In the REAL WORLD (i.e., outside of Downtown St. Paul) retail is determined by zoning and the main requirement is that it is a business where you enter; have a choice of reaching into your wallet; exchanging money for a product or service and then you walk out. It couldn't be much more simple than that.

It just dawns on me that maybe this is the core problem. The people in St. Paul don't know what retail really is because they rarely see live people with real money. If they understood the concept perhaps they would do better at attracting and keeping retail in their quaint little Downtown.

But now the "Princess" and her bag-of-gas twin brother "Just The Facts" are trying to redefine the definition of retail to fit their own little twisted concept in order to support their flawed argument. Yes, a restaurant is retail. Yes, fast food is retail. Yes, Daytons'/Macy's is 8+ square blocks of retail. And yes, a bank --or at least the part of a bank that is on the first and second levels where the public enters and does RETAIL banking is also retail.

Don't be afraid sweetheart. Get your map out and start counting again. Then apologize to me and the other readers for being so very, very stupid.

By the way, am I the only one who notices that this person with duo personalities always finds a way to make a reference to some SEX store or Gay Bar in their comments? Hate to tell you, but these are also retail establishments. You seem to know a lot about them; certainly more than I and most readers. I think we know what you have on your mind when you come to Minneapolis. I hate to disappoint you, but the proposed Light Rail won't get you to Minneapolis any faster than it now takes. My suggestion? Stronger batteries.

I lived in St. Paul for 8 years (1993-2001), when Galtier Plaza was still mostly functioning. Parking is ridiculous in St. Paul. The parking fine has been raised so many times that it feels like a Tijuana cop scam. Lots of downtown parking is paid for with tax money, a citizen's revolt ought to return that parking to citizens instead of meter maid welfare. The city does everything it can to kill downtown commerce and, then, whines for more state money to toss down that toilet.

The reason I never went back to Galtier Plaza had a lot to do with the way they raised their parking prices ten-fold. So the next time a friend suggested something there, I suggested that I'd rather go elsewhere. Eventually, the subject never came up again with any of the group, not because I'm such a leader, just because they weren't thrilled enough with it themselves after the Comedy Gallery closed, then mini-golf went away, then the loss of the Galtier Billiard Hall. Once the movie theaters were shuttered after that chain of closures and the parking rates were subsequently raised; a visit to Galtier was no longer a choice any of us would have made, even if they'd reduced the parking fees back to original. The only remaining venues were a food court, the Lowertown Bar & Grille, and retail consisting of stores you'd find in a strip mall, not interesting retail like you could find in a regular mall. If I were still a St. Paul resident and the theaters were re-opened with John brokering a deal for validated parking with the purchase of a movie ticket, along with the LoTo restaurant/bar and maybe another restaurant, it would be a nice convenient place for dinner and a date for St. Paulites, like it was when I was a regular there. I just can't see the building owners dropping parking costs, even if it does mean more net revenue in their pockets by having more spaces leased.

Once a mall starts to die, it's like a poisoned coral reef. For every empty shop, there are that many less walkbys for the others. It goes down like dominos. And often the mall owners help it along by raising the rent on the remaining shops and raising the parking fees for visitors. Stupid.

I agree that Galtier was once a pretty interesting and fun attempt at a downtown mall that could really pack people in on the weekends. And I agree the club scene in Minneapolis was also pretty fun, though I am too old for that now.

Probably another major factor is the glut of retail here in the metro area. The number of businesses - both retail and entertainment - competing for our discretionary income has expanded dramatically. I always figured that was one of the reasons both Downtowns have failed to become true retail destinations. Especially when their business mix was geared towards gift/entertainment/restaurant businesses, and that kind of purchasing is the first thing cut from a family's budget when the economy goes south.

To add insult to injury, anyone living in or near either downtown realized it was just a 15 minute drive out to Bloomington, without all the traffic hassles a trip to downtown Minneapolis one had to put up with. Tons of free parking and a much broader mix of retail storefronts. Hiawatha Line really is just a way to allow people from downtown Minneapolis to go shopping at the MOA or take a flight out of town. When people want to go shopping, they want to go somewhere where they can actually afford to buy goods, have a selection and stretch their dollars, which would be the MOA, not Neiman Marcus. A trip on the 55 train heading towards downtown Minneapolis is a trip to nowhere - the Hiawatha has only helped expedite people's departure from the city and towards Bloomington, where the true metro area development is occurring.

...continued...

Scott, many of your points are well-reasoned, but I suggest you look at the stretch between Minneapolis and Bloomington in a similar fashion to your description of the Central Corridor. You say the Central Corridor is a way to give St. Paul people a way to shop in Minneapolis, and the train going the other way goes "nowhere". However, it is clearly the same situation for a trip between Bloomington and Minneapolis. It's no coincedence that Target headquarters is slowly but surely pulling their headquarters out of Minneapolis, and that the vast majority of retail that people care about and visit is in Bloomington -- Minneapolis is closed and fails to have any pull on the weekends, which is exactly when people do the majority of their shopping. Meanwhile, MOA is packed on those same days. Given a choice, no one along that rail line is going to choose shopping in Minneapolis over shopping at the MegaMall - a true retail destination Minneapolis is not (and a Jedi warrior you will be! babumpbump). The most they will do is catch a game at the Metrodome, and head right back the other way. The Metrodome is to Minneapolis is what the Xcel is to St. Paul.

This is nothing new. I base this premise off of what we have already been seeing for decades. The freeways really helped this process in the 1960s, and the light-rail will only further expedite what started occuring 50 years ago. In today's age, a "downtown" simply isn't practical.

-hellToupe

Scott Simon wrote:

http://www.bizjournals.com/twi ncities/stories/2008/07/21/dai ly25.html?f=et86&ana=e_du
Another one bites the dust!

How does something "bite the dust" when it hasn't even started, dimwit? The developer spent too much money on the project, and lied to the city of St Paul about it. The outcome would've been the same whether it was in St Paul, Minneapolis, New York, or Timbuktu.

Who do you think you are kidding? Seriously now.

helltroupe, thanks for your comments. It is such a relief to read intelligent dialogue about something that is fully understood by the writer.

And I agree with most of what you have written with the following exceptions. i once was told that over 80% of the dollars spent at the MOA are spent by out-of-towners and considering that 50% of their business is done in 2 months of the year, I tend to believe it. So the idea that Metropolitans are shopping in Bloomington doesn't quite hold up. And I do agree that Downtown Minneapolis has strong competition from MOA and in some cases has been hurt by it, but all in all, with the continued maintenance of the Nicollet Mall, they have been able to hold their ground quite well. If you go down to the Nicollet Mall on a Saturday afternoon, you'll find a busy, active crowd of people shopping and dining in the outdoor cafes. Have you been to Pittsburgh or Dallas or Atlanta or St. Paul on a weekend day? Mpls. looks pretty good by comparison. So the retailing that is done in Mpls. is not all done by workers on their M-F lunchhours as others would have us believe. There is a live retail life in Minneapolis and it far surpasses that of St. Paul.

I found your timeline and description of what went wrong with Galtier and Downtown St. Paul in general to be 100% accurate and like I remember it. I used to go the the Comedy Gallery and dine in Galtier or at Union Station. But you are correct, someone killed it. Meanwhile the Mpls. nightlife is more vibrant than ever although like you, I'm too old for that now. I find myself driving around the block waiting to pick up my 17-year old daughter and her friends after they've gone to see someone I've never heard of at The Fine Line. The sights are incredible and most make me smile. But then it is in the car, a stop at Sebastian Joe's for exotic ice cream that we can't find in the suburbs (and paid for by Daddy of course) and then back to the homestead. I personally have visited the Artist's Quarter many times in downtown St. Paul but can't think of a single thing other than an Xcel concert that a 17-year old would want in all of Ramsey County.

Mpls. has done a better job of making downtown a destination and making it an environment that is fun. The combination of the Metrodome, Target Center, Orpheum, State and Pantages theatres and nightclubs and comedy clubs and dance clubs and yes, even strip clubs have all combined to make Mpls. a destination. And the Light Rail connects 3 destinations, MOA, airport and Downtown Mpls. The next most logical hook-up is the U of M campus and stadium. But why should all that money be spent to connect downtown St. Paul when there is nothing there that MOST people have an interest in? And like you so eloquently pointed out, St. Paul has done a great job of chasing the nightlife and the destinations out of town. Why should they be rewarded with a Light Rail Line to Nowhere?

Scott Simon wrote:

I personally have visited the Artist's Quarter many times in downtown St. Paul but can't think of a single thing other than an Xcel concert that a 17-year old would want in all of Ramsey County.

Uhm, hello??? Try the Myth Night Club - all booking is handled by Clear Channel, aka KDWB, Cities 97, and the rest of the mainstream pop/hot pop/r&b stations in the Twin Cities that are owned by Clear Channel. It's basically a Clear Channel location. And where do they stick their largest, best venue? In a Saint Paul suburb, of course.

BTW I am still waiting for your comprehensive list of Murderapolis retail. 50 solid blocks of retail there?... my ass.

K of the Milky Way wrote:

<quoted text>
Uhm, hello??? Try the Myth Night Club - all booking is handled by Clear Channel, aka KDWB, Cities 97, and the rest of the mainstream pop/hot pop/r&b stations in the Twin Cities that are owned by Clear Channel. It's basically a Clear Channel location. And where do they stick their largest, best venue? In a Saint Paul suburb, of course.
BTW I am still waiting for your comprehensive list of Murderapolis retail. 50 solid blocks of retail there?... my ass.

You know so little. Myth is not owned or run or even booked by Clear Channel. It is owned by someone who wishes to remain anonymous but you see him on TV everyday, several times a day. And it is booked by Rose Presents (a Minneapolis firm) and others, not Clear Channel. Do you know anything about the payola crimes that were committed and the laws that went into effect to guard against the unlawful influence of the public airways? And BTW, 17-year olds with college aspirations don't go to Myth. You need to be 21 for most shows and their chosen demographic is blue collar, trailer trash and that is why it is in Maplewood. Think before you speak and it will save us unnecessary time to constantly correct you.

You won't be getting a list sweetheart. I gave you a colorful map with directions. Dayton's = 8 sq. blocks of retail; Target is 3 square blocks; Block E is 2 and 1/2 sq. blocks of retail. Are you counting? I'm over a dozen square blocks with 3 establishments. Crystal Court is two Square Blocks; Gavidae is 6+ square blocks and so it goes. I could get to 50 without even using the map. Why can't you?

Just thought I'd post this tidbit on here:

Galtier Plaza is playing host to an ABC casting call for a new television show called "All American Beauty" on July 25th from 5 pm - 1 am in the Palm Court (Sibley Street side of the building).

This also occurred on Wednesday, but I forgot to post it on here.

Galtier really should consider hosting more events like this - it really livens the place up quite nicely!

Scott Simon wrote:

<quoted text>
You know so little. Myth is not owned or run or even booked by Clear Channel. It is owned by someone who wishes to remain anonymous but you see him on TV everyday, several times a day. And it is booked by Rose Presents (a Minneapolis firm) and others, not Clear Channel. Do you know anything about the payola crimes that were committed and the laws that went into effect to guard against the unlawful influence of the public airways? And BTW, 17-year olds with college aspirations don't go to Myth. You need to be 21 for most shows and their chosen demographic is blue collar, trailer trash and that is why it is in Maplewood. Think before you speak and it will save us unnecessary time to constantly correct you.
You won't be getting a list sweetheart. I gave you a colorful map with directions. Dayton's = 8 sq. blocks of retail; Target is 3 square blocks; Block E is 2 and 1/2 sq. blocks of retail. Are you counting? I'm over a dozen square blocks with 3 establishments. Crystal Court is two Square Blocks; Gavidae is 6+ square blocks and so it goes. I could get to 50 without even using the map. Why can't you?

So basically, space that isn't even retail space is counted as such just because it is in the same building? I also don't consider vacancies to be "full of retail" in those establishments you've listed. Block E is dying, Gavidae has converted the bulk of space to offices (mirroring Galtier), Macy's above the 4th floor is all office, etc.

But I guess if we measure it like you do:
Galtier = 3 blocks of retail
Town Square = 5 blocks of retail
MN World Trade Center = 3 blocks of retail
Macy's = 5 blocks of retail

Are you counting? I'm at 16 with 4 establishments.

Of course, those establishments have vacant spaces, or converted offices, or floors that technically never were even meant for retail (as in the case of Macy's), but apparently that doesn't matter to Scott!

PS: Looked up the information for that All American Beauty Show, and the stops on the casting tour don't include Murderapolis! But they do visit Saint Paul. Saint Paul must have more beautiful people that they chose Saint Paul over Murderapolis!

Torin wrote:

Just thought I'd post this tidbit on here:
Galtier Plaza is playing host to an ABC casting call for a new television show called "All American Beauty" on July 25th from 5 pm - 1 am in the Palm Court (Sibley Street side of the building).

Thanks Torin. The "Princess" is probably at this moment pulling on the control top pantyhose that he/she wears when visiting the Gay 90's -- so that she can rush over to Galtier for the auditions. I'd love to be there to see it in-person.

K of the Milky Way wrote:

<quoted text>
So basically, space that isn't even retail space is counted as such just because it is in the same building?

I think she is close to understanding how it works in the real world. IF IT IS ZONED FOR RETAIL, IT IS RETAIL SPACE. And Downtown Minneapolis has well over 50 square blocks of retail.

I'll await your apology. And I don't care how much St. Paul has because it is void of anything I (or anyone) want to visit (except TC Costume and Magic; Artist's Quarter; Ordway and Meritage)

Scott Simon wrote:

<quoted text>
I think she is close to understanding how it works in the real world. IF IT IS ZONED FOR RETAIL, IT IS RETAIL SPACE. And Downtown Minneapolis has well over 50 square blocks of retail.
I'll await your apology. And I don't care how much St. Paul has because it is void of anything I (or anyone) want to visit (except TC Costume and Magic; Artist's Quarter; Ordway and Meritage)

What am I supposedly apologizing for?

Honey, if I wanted to go to the 90s, I'd probably live near there, like a good majority of those folks. You couldn't pay me to walk down Hennepin at any time of day or night. Though there are those that do. Better watch your daughter.

I'm just too worried about the LRT carrying the thugs, thieves, and prostitutes from Mpls to St Paul. They got bored there; they already wrecked everything. No wonder the first floor on every building is window-less in Murderapolis.

I'll see you at the casting call, my love. Toodles Scott!

Oh yeah: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/11474631...

I await your apologies. Article specifically shows Clear Channel.

But my favorite section:
----------
First Avenue is enjoying strong business this year, but it has struggled in recent years, as has its main downtown competitor, the Quest. One theory why is that suburban music fans hesitate to go to Minneapolis at night even though -- before Myth -- national acts rarely perform elsewhere.
----------
Flagship and famed Mpls clubs are biting the dust. No surprise out there.

Oh, and your "mystery man" is Mike Ogren.

K of the Milky Way wrote:

Oh yeah: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/11474631...
I await your apologies. Article specifically shows Clear Channel.
But my favorite section:
Flagship and famed Mpls clubs are biting the dust. No surprise out there.
Oh, and your "mystery man" is Mike Ogren.

I'm telling you there is one principal owner of Myth and it is NOT Clear Channel or this Ogren character. I can't reveal this person to you because I'm afraid of him and what he can do. And Myth is in Maplewood, not St. Paul, much less Downtown St. Paul. If you can't find a business to support your premise that St. Paul is a hip, happenin' place, you then go to far flung suburbs in hopes that I won't notice. Your beating your chest for Myth while there are 7 or 8 places in Downtown Mpls. that run the same number of patrons through each night as Myth does. Now where in Downtown St. Paul is there a place with live music other than Artist's Quarter? I can't think of any. BTW, I see that stupid BINGO show closes in a week? What will replace it? The show has changed 3 times in that space whereas Triple Expresso ran for 7+ years in Downtown Mpls. St. Paul can't attract nor hold a crowd.

BTW did you get that Toro Weed Wacker fired up in order to shave your legs for the auditions? How did it go? Are they looking for "your kind" on that show? Disney owns ABC you know so be careful. Don't be too flamboyant (wink).

K of the Milky Way wrote:

Oh yeah: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/11474631...
I await your apologies. Article specifically shows Clear Channel.

Bozo! Your "info" didn't ring true, so I went to it and found IT IS FROM 2005! The club's ownership and percentages of ownership have changed twice since then (THAT I KNOW OF). Someone had to bail them out more than once and as a prize for doing this, they ended up with a higher stake. Get your facts straight before quoting old news here. You can't get away with it. And also note that the 2005 article clearly states that Clear Channel does NOT own part of Myth, they only promote groups that are appearing there with comp tickets. These tickets are made available to all stations aimed at the target demographic of the group appearing there. You wanted the readers to believe Clear Channel owned and controlled Myth. That would be a clear lie. You really are a piece of work.

Scott Simon wrote:

<quoted text>
Bozo! Your "info" didn't ring true, so I went to it and found IT IS FROM 2005! The club's ownership and percentages of ownership have changed twice since then (THAT I KNOW OF). Someone had to bail them out more than once and as a prize for doing this, they ended up with a higher stake. Get your facts straight before quoting old news here. You can't get away with it. And also note that the 2005 article clearly states that Clear Channel does NOT own part of Myth, they only promote groups that are appearing there with comp tickets. These tickets are made available to all stations aimed at the target demographic of the group appearing there. You wanted the readers to believe Clear Channel owned and controlled Myth. That would be a clear lie. You really are a piece of work.

But you yourself have purposefully omitted information, lied to us, distorted information, and committed nearly every single logical fallacy possible. The article is from 2005, but that's one count of a few against the "Princess" compared to the personal attacks, wishing death upon her, and fallacious arguments.

Hey, I can WISH can't I?

And I've NEVER lied to you. I have omitted information when it did not apply to the topic at hand.

I've never made a fallacious argument unless of course it was tongue in cheek or satire.

I think you have forgotten that I am the leading purveyor of BRUTAL HONESTY.

I was at Nye's Polonaise tonight and there were more people inside and outside than in all of Downtown St. Paul and I didn't go near 1st Avenue where there were no doubt thousands having a good time.

I think the war of words is over. I'm wasting my time continuing to point out the obvious. Downtown St. Paul is officially dead. I feel bad for the image of the Twin Cities when the RNC gets here. They will think that ALL of us live in a sleepy little world as portrayed by St. Paul. Actually, I don't care what they think, so please forget that I expressed concern. The fun Republicans ---I know, I know, I set anyone up for that one--- will find the hot spots on their own. I'm guessing they will be in Minneapolis for most of their after hours.

I would not say that I am embarrassed. The Twin Cities consists of two cities, two identities, two personalities. It's to be expected. St Paul is hardly a wasteland - it has been considered to be time and again "The Most Livable City in America". I think Joe Soucheray is right when he points out that Minneapolis is constantly trying to remake itself. St Paul just doesn't need to do that. Minneapolis has clubs, bars, etc. St Paulites don't need to get drunk.

St Paul has a strong sense of its past. We have areas full of character and history that simply have no translatable equivalent in Minneapolis: Como Park, filled with mothers and fathers pushing around babies, kids playing, dogs running around, picnics, etc. Summit Avenue with its stately houses for the past and present high-rollers in the Twin Cities. Grand Avenue with its unique, quirky, and fun shops and restaurants. I could go on and on.

Downtown Minneapolis has stuff going on, but after living in St Paul and knowing and frequently visiting relatives who have lived in Minneapolis for the past 20 years, I simply would have to chose St Paul because the strong sense of identity, character, history, and community-orientedness.

I am quite proud to be from St Paul. I'm not saying that "neighborhood Minneapolis" doesn't have its bright spots, but it is neither as unified nor cohesive as St Paul's are. And in the end, while a throbbing commercial pulse is fun, it simply can't beat (at least in my mind) the neighborhood life of St Paul.

St Paul has been likened as America's "Largest Small Town". Soucheray's article really hit the spot for me about why I live here, and why I will continue to live here. It's the community, not the commercial that I love.

Torin wrote:

St Paulites don't need to get drunk.
St Paul has a strong sense of its past. We have areas full of character and history that simply have no translatable equivalent in Minneapolis: Como Park, Summit Avenue Grand Avenue

TORIN, I would say that I agree with much of what you have written regarding the neighborhood "spirit" in St. Paul -- although there is some inherent racism in that mix. I would encourage you to keep posting and offering up your ideas, they are a refreshing change of pace from the Princess/Just the Facts dribble.

But I hope that you are not unaware that Como Park has it's equivalent in Minneapolis and it is called Lakes Calhoun and Harriett where strollers and picnics and bandshells abound. And Summit Avenue while being unique has a similar match in the River Road areas and it could also be argued that the towering luxury condominiums in Minneapolis and those near the Walker/Groveland Terrace and in the Warehouse District are modern equivalents to Summit Avenue. And as for Grand Avenue, there is the Uptown Area at the crosspoint of Hennepin Ave. and Lake Streets. Have you been in the international food court at Midtown --i.e., the old Sears on Lake Street? Quite impressive. So I think it is fair (and good) to say that both St. Paul and Minneapolis have attractions in the neighborhoods of their cities. But in the Downtown areas, there is no comparison. St. Paul looks and feels like the Quad Cities and Minneapolis more approaches Montreal in terms of vitality and what did you call it? Something about a commercial throb?

And as for the drinking reference that starts your paragraph ... have you ever been to St. Patrick's or Winter Carnival celebrations and had to step in some "green stuff"?