Topix Chitown Regulars

Stina wrote:

<quoted text>
Maybe do a checkoff list for her that she has to daily, liek the bathroom cleaning checklists in a lot of public bathrooms. She doesn't do it, she "pays rent".

Really, fines might be the way to go.

cycle003 wrote:

This is a tough situation, Matilda. Generally, I agree with the things Sub said and maybe trying to charge her cash is the way to go. BUT part of the problem is that her issues are deeply ingrained. It's extremely difficult to come in at such a late stage and really change someone's behavior. I mean if the girl has to be told to brush her teeth at 18 YEARS OLD, what kind of motivation could really get her to change.
If you haven't already, I would consider highlighting how disrespectful and hurtful it is for her to treat your home like that. Ask her if she enjoys hurting you even after all you guys have done for her. Make sure that she understands how rotten it is for her to do this. Let her know that you care and ask her for some input about what would help her accomplish the task. Would a chore checklist help?

We've done that. "Respect our house, yadda yadda, we're sacrificing for you to live here, we feel used when you lie or don't do what we ask, etc." She acts like she cares and she's listening but then does whatever.

We've had a chore board since the beginning. It's in a prominent place that she has to see every day. I make her re-do chores that aren't done right. The list I gave her the other day was VERY specific and detailed, as if I were asking a perfect stranger to do them, like "Take the white Nikes on the back porch that you said don't fit and throw them out or put them in the donation box at the top of the stairs." That kind of detail. And portions of it were still done wrong or ignored completely. It's kind of a joke.

Ah, and then we were about halfway to camp and she realized she forgot ALL her bedding. Immediately tried blaming that on J. Unfeckingbelievable.

cycle003 wrote:

I would consider highlighting how disrespectful and hurtful it is for her to treat your home like that. Ask her if she enjoys hurting you even after all you guys have done for her.

Ah. Hammer down authority didn't work, so switch up the playbook and go guilt.

tell her if she dont clean the room then we will hire someone to do it, and she has to pay?

NWmoon wrote:

<quoted text>Really, fines might be the way to go.

RACE wrote:

I was thinking a wipe board with daily tasks (make bed, put dishes in sink, etc) that she has to check off. That way the only nagging is to go check the board, and not have to recite everything every day.
<quoted text>

We have exactly that, because verbally telling her pretty much goes nowhere: "Oh, I forgot". She started erasing chores before we could check how she did on them, so now she's not allowed to do that. Line through it, fine, so we can still remember to check, but do *not* act like something is done and I find out it's not. We also put deadlines on stuff, because otherwise, she thinks "put clean dishes in dishwasher away" means "any fecking time you decide you want to do that".

Matilda77 wrote:

<quoted text>Yeah, neither of us feel like a 'parent' and I know that's where we've failed. J can't step out of his 'protective big brother' role and I don't want to be the evil step mother. I think we both just feel sorry for her in a big way, and I know that's not helping.

But we've been over, and over, and over this topic with her. It has already been discussed that if she can't meet our simple expectations, she's going home and she hasn't responded or seen that as any type of threat. So I feel like we're at that point already.

I finally realized what's been bugging me about the situation. I know you came into this late and that she has bio-parents, but at this point you and J ARE her parents. You and J are the only people she knows she can depend on and you are seriously talking about kicking her out of the one stable, healthy place she has known? Kids do plenty of things that drive their parents crazy, even the ones that are brought up perfectly from the time they were infants. You stepped into the hardest years, the time when kids figure out who they are and how that differs from who their parents want them to be, without being part of her formative years. Still, you don't throw her out.

Think about a dog that was never properly trained or fed consistently. You rescue it as an adult and show it love, but there are some learned behaviors that are so ingrained that they will never be totally overcome.

I know this doesn't specifically address the food issue.

Jess in NJ wrote:

<quoted text>
I finally realized what's been bugging me about the situation. I know you came into this late and that she has bio-parents, but at this point you and J ARE her parents. You and J are the only people she knows she can depend on and you are seriously talking about kicking her out of the one stable, healthy place she has known? Kids do plenty of things that drive their parents crazy, even the ones that are brought up perfectly from the time they were infants. You stepped into the hardest years, the time when kids figure out who they are and how that differs from who their parents want them to be, without being part of her formative years. Still, you don't throw her out.
Think about a dog that was never properly trained or fed consistently. You rescue it as an adult and show it love, but there are some learned behaviors that are so ingrained that they will never be totally overcome.
I know this doesn't specifically address the food issue.

Yeah, I do feel like throwing her out will be five steps backwards for her. And we don't have *that* much longer to deal with her full time. And I also feel like the punishment doesn't really fit the crime. That house is a m-i-s-e-r-a-b-l-e place to be, it really is. Couple that with the fact that her parents are still 'mad' that she decided to leave, I think they'll treat her even worse now than before she left. I think they'd even try to sabotage her going off to school if they could.

I'm leaning towards the 'scoop everything up and make her buy it back' and 'daily Nazi-esque room checks' route.

More thoughts... One of the things that has been most important to my sense of self-worth is that I knew my parents supported me 100%, even if they didn't always agree with me. There was never a threat of them kicking me out or shipping me off if I messed up too many times. I'm sure they thought it and I know I tested them, but they told me as many times as I needed to hear that they loved me, that being part of a family meant everyone chipped in and that nothing would break us apart.

She may be 18, but she still needs to hear that she can count on you and you won't abandon her. Everyone else has.

Jess in NJ wrote:

More thoughts... One of the things that has been most important to my sense of self-worth is that I knew my parents supported me 100%, even if they didn't always agree with me. There was never a threat of them kicking me out or shipping me off if I messed up too many times. I'm sure they thought it and I know I tested them, but they told me as many times as I needed to hear that they loved me, that being part of a family meant everyone chipped in and that nothing would break us apart.
She may be 18, but she still needs to hear that she can count on you and you won't abandon her. Everyone else has.

I agree with this, too, pretty much.

My parents actually *did* threaten to kick me out. Plenty of times, and mostly long before I was 18. Mostly just stuff like "If you don't like the rules here, feel free to leave when you turn 18." Preventative threats, and I guess they worked because I didn't cause much trouble when I knew they didn't have to let me live there. My mom got kicked out of her parent's house (at age 23). But she and I had a lifelong stability that my SIL has not had.

Matilda77 wrote:

<quoted text>

I'm leaning towards the 'scoop everything up and make her buy it back' and 'daily Nazi-esque room checks' route.

It's a PITA for you, but it sounds like a good plan.

I may have mentioned this before, but I'm a really bad housekeeper. I'm ok now that I'm married and have kids, but when I was on my own I was a total slob. I brought food into my room in HS and left it there and my mother would scream and cry, but it didn't change my habits. She once threw away everything that was on my bedroom floor (you could barely open the door and stuff was piled about a foot high). Even now, my husband is constantly complaining about my car. It seems to be a catch-all for random things and I have to spend an extra 5 minutes cleaning it out before anyone else can ride in it.

So, I can empathize with your SIL and as a Mom I can now sympathize with you. I was lucky that I found tolerant college roommates, but I know that what you are doing now is helping to prepare her for the future.

You rock.

Matilda77 wrote:

I'm leaning towards the 'scoop everything up and make her buy it back' and 'daily Nazi-esque room checks' route.

Under the circumstances, I think this is a good plan of attack. I think what makes it extra distasteful for you is that you are so opposite of her that it is unthinkable to you that such treatment should ever be necessary for an 18 year old. You want to treat her like you would have wanted to be treated as an 18 year old. But the difference is she does not act even close to how you acted at that age. You were independent. Wanted freedom. Wanted solitude. She is bizarro matilda.

See, and we, too, are pretty far from neat freaks. We just aren't gross. Clutter is one thing. Squalor is another. And when something does get gross or is cluttered to the point of annoyance or losing things, we clean it, throw it out, do what needs to be done. She doesn't have that switch working in her brain yet.

Their family is pretty much hoarders. It's not like on TV, but there's crap piled up and they don't throw things out that need to be thrown out regularly. J says he sometimes attaches meaning and value to things that shouldn't have any, because that's how he grew up, and he has to fight that.

Matilda77 wrote:

See, and we, too, are pretty far from neat freaks. We just aren't gross. Clutter is one thing. Squalor is another. And when something does get gross or is cluttered to the point of annoyance or losing things, we clean it, throw it out, do what needs to be done. She doesn't have that switch working in her brain yet.
Their family is pretty much hoarders. It's not like on TV, but there's crap piled up and they don't throw things out that need to be thrown out regularly. J says he sometimes attaches meaning and value to things that shouldn't have any, because that's how he grew up, and he has to fight that.

Wow - but at what point does someone not say, "It is REALLY uncomfortable sleeping with an open and crushed package of Oreos under my sheets?

Stina wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow - but at what point does someone not say, "It is REALLY uncomfortable sleeping with an open and crushed package of Oreos under my sheets?

Heh. How sound a sleeper is she?

My sister, while not quite the slob where open food is concerned, still has her quirks. I've seen wher she has stuff on the bed. Maybe the laptop. Or some paperwork. And she'll be able to sleep with that stuff on the bed, without rolling over it or knocking it off the bed. I would not even attempt that cause I know that shit would get damaged.

Mister Tonka wrote:

<quoted text>Heh. How sound a sleeper is she?
My sister, while not quite the slob where open food is concerned, still has her quirks. I've seen wher she has stuff on the bed. Maybe the laptop. Or some paperwork. And she'll be able to sleep with that stuff on the bed, without rolling over it or knocking it off the bed. I would not even attempt that cause I know that shit would get damaged.

I can do it with stuff next to me, but I can never really get comfortable because I am always "aware" of it. But Matilda mentioned she has food in her bed; I would think the crumbs would be as annoying as carp!!!

Not till the ants start biting!

Stina wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow - but at what point does someone not say, "It is REALLY uncomfortable sleeping with an open and crushed package of Oreos under my sheets?

Stina wrote:

<quoted text>Wow - but at what point does someone not say, "It is REALLY uncomfortable sleeping with an open and crushed package of Oreos under my sheets?

Under the sheets? You don't even notice them as long as you sleep on top of the sheets.

One house I lived in was right next to a field and we had a problem with mice (rent was cheap and this was back in my drinking days, so my priorities were off). I left a box of pizza crusts on the floor one night because I was too lazy (drunk?) to throw it out and I woke up in the middle of the night because a mouse was dragging one of the crusts across the floor. You would think that would have been enough to scare me straight when it came to keeping a clean room, but old habits are really hard to break.

Ugh, just another reminder of why I cleaned up my life (ha ha, no pun intended).

RACE wrote:

Not till the ants start biting!
<quoted text>

You guys are all grossing me out!!!

thanks, we try.

Stina wrote:

<quoted text>
You guys are all grossing me out!!!

Matilda77 wrote:

She doesn't have that switch working in her brain yet.
Their family is pretty much hoarders. It's not like on TV, but there's crap piled up and they don't throw things out that need to be thrown out regularly.

All of this. Sending her home, while a crappy living situation, is also a place where these tendencies are re-enforced, ignored, rewarded, thought of as "normal." So doing that, while maybe giving you some peace (and guilt, don't forget the guilt) would only serve to make her more like them. <shrug>

She's 18, she has a job, charge her rent.

Draw up a contract, make her pay, like $25.00 per week (just a nominal amount...nothing big, teaching her responsibility for her own bills...sorta) and in the contract state specifically the monetary fines that will be imposed,(like $50.00) in addition to her rent, which is simply "rent" and not a fine PER infraction payable immediately.

So, like in her room, cookies on the bed, one infraction, clothes on the floor, another infraction, not loading the dishwasher, another one, and so on. Make up a detailed list of her household responsibilities and what the infractions are and include them in the contract.

Emphasize the fact that any fines owed will be recovered in court if necessary and that she will be responsible for fines, interest, court and attorney fees. Make her sigh it and get it notarized. I know you would never sue her or anything, but she doesn't have to know that.