Pizza Man fire: Pizza Man fire sparks concern about safety for ...

That a boy Chief!! That's the way to stand up for your boys and provide with them adequate staffing!!! One question.....who is covering those other nine communities while they are covering for your closed firehouses?

Fire departments throughout the state of Wisconsin have been using Mutual Aid for years. It is only the city of Milwaukee who has for years said they are so big that they won't need mutual aid. They also did not provide mutual aid without a "fee". Their cuts going from 5 to 4 on a rig gets them in line with the suburbs who also staff with 4 according to NFPA 1700. The reason few suburbs get fires in the news is the fact that the fires are put out before the news crews can get there. They have been used to getting by with less for a long time and have improved their efficiency by necessity. The New MABAS system is a start on eliminating the "State of Milwaukee" and forcing a more homogenous fire response in the Milwaukee metro area. MFD is participating in this as well. All benefit from this. It does not make cuts acceptable but it does make them more survivable and supports the public by knowing that someone will show up when they call 911. The Suburban Fire Departments have personel that are trained as well and educated at higher levels than many of those on Milwaukee. Just look at the application requirements. Milwaukee: GED, Suburbs, HS Diploma, State Fire certifications, Wiconsin EMT, Paramedic, and more. It is more common for MFD employees to go to the suburbs, but not the other way around. And yes, "We can all get along". We all have the same call to duty.

"The reason few suburbs get fires in the news is the fact that the fires are put out before the news crews can get there." Is this comment a joke? It takes much longer for suburban firefighters to get to the scene which is why when you have a fire in the suburbs your house will probably burn to the ground. While Milwaukee aggressively hits the fire with interior attack tactics, suburban departments lob water from the outside while the structure burns. It's not a knock on smaller departments, it just takes longer to get personnel and water to the fire scene. Milwaukee's use of mutual aide is not needed.

Hey Jeff, get a life!! I've always supported MFD and the fight against reduced staffing, but it's pretty hard to support someone who sits there and tells everyone that we don't know how to do our job in the 'burbs... Again, back your talk up with statistics. Last time I checked, it's been a long time since we've "saved a basement" out here in podunk-ville!!

For the record, I've worked in Milwaukee EMS (the privates), been trained by your MFD brothers, and done just about everything you've done. We do just fine out here. By the way, since we're throwing stones, your EMS is mostly a joke. Love the Milwaukee blood pressure: 120/70 Change it up once in a while!

Way to bang on your Union Brothers who I'm guessing used to support you... Still like MFD and support the cause, but you my friend, get a life...grow up!

Rudy Sparks wrote:

Fire departments throughout the state of Wisconsin have been using Mutual Aid for years. It is only the city of Milwaukee who has for years said they are so big that they won't need mutual aid. They also did not provide mutual aid without a "fee". Their cuts going from 5 to 4 on a rig gets them in line with the suburbs who also staff with 4 according to NFPA 1700. The reason few suburbs get fires in the news is the fact that the fires are put out before the news crews can get there. They have been used to getting by with less for a long time and have improved their efficiency by necessity. The New MABAS system is a start on eliminating the "State of Milwaukee" and forcing a more homogenous fire response in the Milwaukee metro area. MFD is participating in this as well. All benefit from this. It does not make cuts acceptable but it does make them more survivable and supports the public by knowing that someone will show up when they call 911. The Suburban Fire Departments have personel that are trained as well and educated at higher levels than many of those on Milwaukee. Just look at the application requirements. Milwaukee: GED, Suburbs, HS Diploma, State Fire certifications, Wiconsin EMT, Paramedic, and more. It is more common for MFD employees to go to the suburbs, but not the other way around. And yes, "We can all get along". We all have the same call to duty.

Are you talking about 1710? Because if you are, 4 is a minimum, but it also recommends 5 and even 6 for high risk occupancies. It also leaves the AHJ as the determiner of what a high hazard is.
Many suburbs have these high hazard areas, as well. What the suburbs don't have is the housing stock and population density which requires adequate staffing.

Now, about your other implication about about us "less-educated" MFD members. Why is it that suburban departments put requirements out, such as EMT, state certification, or even paramedic?

That is only about saving money, as most suburban departments only hire a handful of recruits at one time, where Milwaukee will typically hire 30-50 and run them thru our own recruit school.
The reason that more guys leave Milwaukee to go work in the suburbs is because of the credentials that the city of Milwaukee gives them. So hop on down from that high horse and speak truthfully, please. Guys come to Milwaukee because the city hires more than anywhere else, pays for guys to get training in the MFD recruit school, and then the suburbs poach them from the city of Milwaukee.
Why pay to train guys when another city will do it for you.

Hey Billy, I didn't mean to bash the burbs. I was just trying to say fire tactics are different in small departments then in bigger city departments. Just as suburban areas can't expect a fire crew from Milwaukee untrained in suburban tactics to show up for a house fire and think 4 other rigs will be there in the next three minutes and the water supply will be a hydrant every 300 feet. We are all trained in firefighting 1-3 but we also know that there is a difference in tactics used from city operations to suburban. It is not fair to the citizens of either Milwaukee and the suburban areas not to have the best trained firefighters protect their homes and family. And for the city of Milwaukee it is members of the MFD.

Jeff,
Thanks for the reply... I will admit, this whole discussion got me all fired up!! I'll take back my zinger on EMS too, don't want to take out the shortcomings of a few on a whole organization...

Anyway, you're absolutely right, tactics vary between urban, suburban, and rural departments. They have to be different. BUT remember there are suburban departments out there that do a pretty darn good job. Where I currently work we do most things the "mfd" way, the way we operate, the aggressiveness...that's the way we were taught... We have hydrants every 300 feet too, houses are old, people do stupid things, a house burns, we respond. We may not get there in 3 minutes every time due to our short staffing and wider coverage areas, but given the geographical advantage that MFD companies have in terms of that extra person or two and a nearby firehouse, we'd do just fine.

Perhaps this shouldn't be about bashing mutual aid/other departments, it should be about WHO's coming on mutual aid. Don't get me wrong, Milwaukee is big enough where it shouldn't have to rely on MABAS, but please don't bash us Brothers out in the burbs to make a point. We'd do just fine being the first, second...whichever engine showing up on a full assignment given the chance.

There are certainly many issues that need to be addressed involving MFD and MABAS, it seems it wasn't something that was thought out very well before hand. That issue is with the administration.

James wrote:

<quoted text>
Now, about your other implication about about us "less-educated" MFD members. Why is it that suburban departments put requirements out, such as EMT, state certification, or even paramedic?
That is only about saving money, as most suburban departments only hire a handful of recruits at one time, where Milwaukee will typically hire 30-50 and run them thru our own recruit school.

Maybe so that qualified people apply?

James wrote:

<quoted text>The reason that more guys leave Milwaukee to go work in the suburbs is because of the credentials that the city of Milwaukee gives them. So hop on down from that high horse and speak truthfully, please. Guys come to Milwaukee because the city hires more than anywhere else, pays for guys to get training in the MFD recruit school, and then the suburbs poach them from the city of Milwaukee.
Why pay to train guys when another city will do it for you.

Maybe guys leave Milwaukee cause they don't want to live there. I don't want to move to Milwaukee to get training for free from Milwaukee. Milwaukee operates differently than the burbs with different challenges that MFD could not comprehend. Also, all departments get a portion of the 2% that the state collects from fire insurance providers for training.... so it costs next to nothing for a fire department to credential an emt or firefighter throught the technical college system. Using this system, the trainees are also exposed to people who have varying backgrounds and have a wider variety of experiences than the all in one department training staff.

US Express wrote:

<quoted text>
Also, all departments get a portion of the 2% that the state collects from fire insurance providers for training.... so it costs next to nothing for a fire department to credential an emt or firefighter throught the technical college system.

Really? Please, provide a link, please...show us all where it says that...

Okay, you say it takes the Suburban FD's longer to get there and they are less aggressive. I was'nt there but I watched as the walls of the 2-story Pizza man restaurant collapsed. I know any fire can go from nothing to alot in a hurry, but where was the advertized aggressiveness to stop the fire from taking the entire building? 150 MFD personell saved a basement. Similar fire in Wauwatosa, 1993 with 3 firefighters on a rig. A two story multi-use property on fire on two floors. Stopped in its tracks with no mutual aid. Only 15 firefighters did that. That building is still there. Where's Pizza man? Further comments on this site makes the MFD look like a farm team for the suburbs. If you want to focus on anything, focus on the final statement, "we all have the same call to duty" and leave it there.

Jeff Haley wrote:

"The reason few suburbs get fires in the news is the fact that the fires are put out before the news crews can get there." Is this comment a joke? It takes much longer for suburban firefighters to get to the scene which is why when you have a fire in the suburbs your house will probably burn to the ground. While Milwaukee aggressively hits the fire with interior attack tactics, suburban departments lob water from the outside while the structure burns. It's not a knock on smaller departments, it just takes longer to get personnel and water to the fire scene. Milwaukee's use of mutual aide is not needed.

James wrote:

<quoted text>
Really? Please, provide a link, please...show us all where it says that...

[url="http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/SB-FirePre... ;]WI Commerce Dept[/url]
[quote]PDF file, of Fire Department 2 percent Dues scheduled 2009 payments to Wisconsin municipalities. The 2 percent Dues program is supported by fire insurance premiums paid in Wisconsin, with the money intended for uses related to specific fire department activities.[/quote]
[url = "http://www.commerce.state.wi.us/SB/docs/SB-Fi... ;]PDF[/url]

Wow...Milwaukee is certainly on the defensive now. I just wanted to really thank you for your "well thought out" radio address. It's interresting how you preach "brotherhood" in one breath, but when it comes to your political agendas....all other departments are don't know anything. Milwaukee is "simply the best" and everybody else is "simply the rest". Your radio address finally clarified one thing....your view of the subarbs and the fire departments that protect them. Above is a reference to Glendale and Milwaukee. I believe Milwaukee's current union president wrote a letter to the Glendale Common Council immediately after a fire death bragging about how "if" Milwaukee were on the scene the lady would not have died. What kind of idiot would write such a letter, considering Milwaukee is not immune to fire deaths. As I understand it...they had one immediately after the Glendale death. Where is your common sense? Finally, we all know what Milwaukee's true intentions are here. Finally, we all know where you stand and how the "brotherhood" is used on "your" terms when it pertains to "your agenda". You make mention about staffing. I've got news for you....Budgets are shrinking. Less people are riding on rigs. Milwaukee's tax base is shrinking (people are moving out of the city to get away from the ghetto and crime). What tax payers are going to pay for your 5 man truck companies?. You already do not do EMS because your client's don't have insurnace or jobs to pay for the transports! In case you have not yet realized it...the surrounding "subarbs" operate with 3 man heavy pieces. They still are very agressive at "interior" attack and the fires are extinguished just the same...but with less guys and they do EMS, fire inspections and fire prevention! You may wish to watch them so you can learn how to operate with less guys instead of bashing other "brothers". So I guess that means the subarbs are "more" efficient!. I am happy that we finally know Milwaukee's attitude towards the surrounding areas. We no-longer have to assume. Every year you put in bids to take jobs of surrounding departments (to save your own). Those that place themselves so high on the pedistal eventually get their heads cut off! I look forward to your future radio address seeing as how Conan is no longer on the air....we need some more entertainment and the tax payers need the truth!

I'm not sure why the suburbs are bragging about only having 3 on a rig, you would think that they would want as many as they could get. The other thing I don't get about this whole MABAS system is if I "suburb" give the city some of my fire equipment to cover their empty houses whose covering my empty fire house? Each fire dept works best inside their own response areas. I'm sure if you ask a city guy about a tanker shuttle they won't know what you are talking about. If they have to work together, they need to train together for everyones safety because everyone does operate differently. There are a lot of false accusations on this blog and people need to get their facts straight before they start lobbing granades at each other. One last thing, MABAS and government grant money have a thing in common, it is not a coincidence.

Sparky:

I highly doubt the subarbs are "bragging" about only having 3 on a rig. We as a union do not dictate staffing levels. You should know that...You don't dictate your staffing levels either. I feel the arguement here is Milwaukee is once again placing themselves high on the horse for their own political agenda and "lobbing granades" at the subarban departments to help further Milwaukee's cause. We have the same building construction here, we have the same tools here, we have the same "credentials" that they teach you at the BIT, we have college degrees here, we go "interior" here, we beat the national average for response times here, we provide ALS, BLS, fire protection, confined space entry, water rescue, level B haz mat, fire inspections, pre-fire planning AND public education to our schools! We do it all....and YES, we do it with 3 on a rig and you want to know something else....WE DO IT DAMN WELL TOO. We are efficient, professional and "respectful" at what we do for our communities and most of all we know what the hell were talking about during a radio address. So don't ever use us (the Milwaukee County Suburban Departments) as your political dog and pony show again! You really end up taking credability away from yourself any how. The Milwaukee County subarbs have been working with each other for quite some time now. We in essence are working as one department already. We know how MABAS works and when all participants buy in...it really works well. We use the same tactics, radio terminology, and tools and guess what....we put out fires too! I believe that engaging one another on a respectful level is healthy. You guys as a union and "brotherhood" may wish to re-evaluate the voice that is representing you because you sure do not portray yourselves as professional and a member of the IAFF by allowing your "representing voice" put bogus information out there. Now...the question to ask yourselves is.....WHOS'S REALLY DOING DAMAGE CONTROL?

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