New York Primary Election Sept 14: Will you vote?

Brown trout wrote:

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Was it maybe bush and chenneys intention to conquer the middle east?

Why? For what purpose?

Oil, and haliberton.

Brown trout wrote:

Will bush, Cheney, Grover norquist be remembered as honest, moral men who did not use power, and war to becom rich while exploiting the environment?

You're one confused puppydog, son.

Mankind has been exploiting the environment for wealth since the first cave-man started making fire.

Likewise mankind has been making war and relying on the power of 'might makes right' to gain wealth for just as long. The federal government relies on power and 'might makes right' to gain wealth from Americans. Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it - it's in the DNA.

So which exactly is your problem? Mankind using war, power, and the environment to gain wealth?

Or three guys whose political views you just don't happen to agree with?

Because you're tarring one with the brush of the other irrationally.

Brown trout wrote:

We all have a little bill Clinton, and john Edwards in us. It's the cross we bare.

It was a play on this from Monty Python / The Holy Grail... I must be getting old... lol

ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
Who's castle is that?

WOMAN: King of the who?

ARTHUR: The Britons.

WOMAN: Who are the Britons?

ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.

WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous
collective.

DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--

WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.

DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--

ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?

WOMAN: No one live there.

ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?

WOMAN: We don't have a lord.

ARTHUR: What?

DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

ARTHUR: Yes.

DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.

ARTHUR: Yes, I see.

DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--

ARTHUR: Be quiet!

DENNIS:--but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--

ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?

ARTHUR: I am your king!

WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.

ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.

WOMAN: Well,'ow did you become king then?

ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
That is why I am your king!

DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.

Brown trout wrote:

Oil, and haliberton.

Oil is a commodity product freely traded on the world market.

Halliburton is a corporation.

Neither is a reason.

Try again.

Caution - some thought might be required on your part.

Pasted more than I thought... but the quote is at the bottom of it all...

Oops.

Teddy I had so much respect for you before you called me a confused puppy SON. What don't we agree on?

Teddy R wrote:

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Likewise mankind has been making war and relying on the power of 'might makes right' to gain wealth for just as long. The federal government relies on power and 'might makes right' to gain wealth from Americans.

I just want to make sure that I understand that part of your post correctly...

Are you truly justifying the loss of lives - however many and in this case on the order of a million lives all told - in the pursuit of wealth ?

Teddy R wrote:

<quoted text>
Oil is a commodity product freely traded on the world market.
Halliburton is a corporation.
Neither is a reason.
Try again.
Caution - some thought might be required on your part.

Oil is running out, and halliberton prospers from war, death, and distraction. I don't know what else to say.

Michael wrote:

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I'm a consultant ( engineer ) and have been offered a short gig over in Dubai - right down the Saudi coast from Iraq...
If I take and head over there in a few months... one of the things I will be curious to find out is how the locals view the situation... good or bad... estimates of the number of people who died and so forth... and how all of that compares to what the western media portrays to those of us in the USA etc....
Its not that I am necessarily to take what I hear as gospel or an indictment of the news we get - if the numbers differ... more along the lines of seeing WHY they differ... different counting methods... those in favor of the war in the Middle East down playing the numbers and decreasing them... those against it increasing them... or whatever.
Re-reading all that it might sound a bit morbid... but I've traveled a lot for work and I've always been amazed at the different views one gets as you move from one country ( and their media / etc.) to the next... with the information or the way its presented being often contradictory.

I think (speaking from first-hand experience) you will find the following:
1) The "locals" you will be meeting and interacting with face to face will not be local Emiratis at all 98% of the time - they will be expatriates. Pakis, Indians, Filipinos, Turks, some expatriate Arabs, a smattering of Europeans and the odd Yank.
2) Few if any of these expatriates are going to have any interest in sharing with you "how the locals view the situation" - generally they don't give a rat's ass about the Iraq wars or your desire to obsess over them. They already know exactly what a monster Saddam was - just as they know Assad. It's common knowledge, the region has been run this way forever, and it's not news. Besides, 100% of their waking hours are devoted to making as much money there as they can. They are entirely apolitical. You are living in a closed, autocratic society, everyone is under surveillance, and troublemakers get deported. There is no free press. No one talks politics.
3) On the relatively rare occasions you do get a glimpse of "how the locals view the situation," you will find that view to be dominated by a) racism, b) ancient Sunni vs. Shia and tribal feuds, c) the Iranian threat to "moderate" Arab states, and d) the "Palestinian question."

Brown trout wrote:

Teddy I had so much respect for you before you called me a confused puppy SON. What don't we agree on?

Apologies.

I get a little tired of the mindless partisan hackery whining about Bush and Cheney (and ... Grover Norquist?? Seriously?? How many wars and megadeaths does he have on his head?), is all.

Acting like war and power and exploitation of the environment was just invented in 2000 ... or 1980, or ...(pick any election in which the GOP candidate was elected) is just plain stupid.

Just seeking clarity - are you simply fapping off bashing Bush and Cheney (in which case we'll just quietly close the door until you're finished), or are you seriously expecting humankind to completely transform its behavior from the millenia spent using war, power, and exploitation of the environment to gain wealth?

Two separate issues - which are you talking about?

Teddy R wrote:

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I think (speaking from first-hand experience) you will find the following:

3) On the relatively rare occasions you do get a glimpse of "how the locals view the situation," you will find that view to be dominated by a) racism, b) ancient Sunni vs. Shia and tribal feuds, c) the Iranian threat to "moderate" Arab states, and d) the "Palestinian question."

When I travel for work or whatever - I tend to shy away from the tourist and expat areas... simply because my view is that if I'm going to hang around such places I might as well stay home...

Having said that...

The item that I quoted from your post - I'm sure will color any feedback I receive... but that's the point... part of the "exercise" i.e. to figure out how they are coming to their conclusions / numbers / whatever and which of those a/b/c/d categories are coloring their views either directly or indirectly...

Btw I do realize that some of what I'm saying might just come off as strange... but the thing is that while I'm an engineer - I also majored in Sociology in college... and stuff like this did and does interest me for a number of reasons...

Teddy R wrote:

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or are you seriously expecting humankind to completely transform its behavior from the millenia spent using war, power, and exploitation of the environment to gain wealth?

Wouldn't it be f'in brilliant if we did manage that though ?

I mean - I'm not going to holding my breath waiting for something like that to happen but still... but still its something I think is worth striving for...

Teddy R wrote:

<quoted text>
Apologies.
I get a little tired of the mindless partisan hackery whining about Bush and Cheney (and ... Grover Norquist?? Seriously?? How many wars and megadeaths does he have on his head?), is all.
Acting like war and power and exploitation of the environment was just invented in 2000 ... or 1980, or ...(pick any election in which the GOP candidate was elected) is just plain stupid.
Just seeking clarity - are you simply fapping off bashing Bush and Cheney (in which case we'll just quietly close the door until you're finished), or are you seriously expecting humankind to completely transform its behavior from the millenia spent using war, power, and exploitation of the environment to gain wealth?
Two separate issues - which are you talking about?

I understand what you mean. The issues you speak of are not new. The difference is that we should have by now evolved to the point of realizing right from wrong. We have exploited the Irish, the Japanese, Africans, Hispanics. Etc. When as a hole we stood up against these immoral acts we moved on to the middle east for example. If praying on the lest fortunate is how we stay competitive, I am not on bored! The technology is available to avoid these practices. I do believe that regarding current events people like bush, Grover, and chaeney are holding us back in an attempt to fatten their wallets.

Brown trout wrote:

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Oil is running out, and halliberton prospers from war, death, and distraction. I don't know what else to say.

A terribly superficial and specious view.

Oil has been "running out" since Spindletop.

Halliburton serves its customers well, and yes, for profit - as do most corporations. Hallibuton's customers freely hire Halliburton because they do what they do pretty well for them.

Corporations aren't moral beings. They simply operate within laws, serving their customers' wants, and building a sustainable reputation that will enable them to continue to win new work and grow.

Blaming Halliburton for the business its Customer the US DoD happens to be in, and hires Halliburton to do for them, is like blaming a pig because it can't sing opera.

Michael wrote:

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When I travel for work or whatever - I tend to shy away from the tourist and expat areas... simply because my view is that if I'm going to hang around such places I might as well stay home...

Good instincts - good for you.

However, the point is that the WHOLE of Dubai is one great massive tourist and expat area - that's all there is; there's nothing else in Dubai, and very few Emiratis at all.

To the Emiratis, moreover, you are an inferior race (Yanks maybe one step down), and it's the rare Emirati that will consider you worthy of their company in a social setting.

Michael wrote:

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the thing is that while I'm an engineer - I also majored in Sociology in college... and stuff like this did and does interest me for a number of reasons...

Again, good for you. It does you credit. The best engineers are all students of sociology, whether in a formal academic sense or otherwise. Especially if you're in the Civil discipline and deal with public infrastructure.

Michael wrote:

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Wouldn't it be f'in brilliant if we did manage that though ?
I mean - I'm not going to holding my breath waiting for something like that to happen but still... but still its something I think is worth striving for...

Absolutely a worthy objective towards which to strive.

Small steps - the 'trim tab effect' is what will tell in the long run - and this kind of change only occurs over generational timescales. One needs to park the technological hubris - technology doesn't really make much difference in this arena - it's a "wetware" issue ...

the arab shia sunni conflict only goes back to the 20s.up until that time they had lived in relative harmony with each other.it was victorious ww1 powers such as france and brit.carving up the otoman empire without regards to traditional borders that led to their conflicts.most of the time they regard each other the same way prots. and caholics do.as for war human nature can change,witness western europe,two of the bloodiest conflicts in history happened there wwi,ww11,but through the un and a spirit of cooperation they've been at peace since 45,solutions can be worked out.the arab spring testifies to the fact people want good govt.,whether they will get it is another thing.we should always remember when we go to these areas we are dealing with civilizations that go back 1000s of years.and at one time contributely mightily to the advancement of civilization,algebra being one example.read about the diff.between shia and sunni,if you haven't all ready, its actually quite a minor theological difference,much like the differences between between the different prot. sects and the catholic church,you wouldn't want to live on the difference.people don't change overnight,but we should never quit trying.

xuanloc wrote:

the arab shia sunni conflict only goes back to the 20s.up until that time they had lived in relative harmony with each other.it was victorious ww1 powers such as france and brit.carving up the otoman empire without regards to traditional borders that led to their conflicts.most of the time they regard each other the same way prots. and caholics do.as for war human nature can change,witness western europe,two of the bloodiest conflicts in history happened there wwi,ww11,but through the un and a spirit of cooperation they've been at peace since 45,solutions can be worked out.the arab spring testifies to the fact people want good govt.,whether they will get it is another thing.we should always remember when we go to these areas we are dealing with civilizations that go back 1000s of years.and at one time contributely mightily to the advancement of civilization,algebra being one example.read about the diff.between shia and sunni,if you haven't all ready, its actually quite a minor theological difference,much like the differences between between the different prot. sects and the catholic church,you wouldn't want to live on the difference.people don't change overnight,but we should never quit trying.

Correct, except it's no longer the 1920s. The Sunni-Shiite dynamic is far from the minor theological matter you make it out to be today. There are deep political and ideological divisions between Sunni and Shiite-dominated power centers, wrapped up in fears of an increasingly aggressive Iran, Iran's overt de-stabilization antics thru their proxy Shiite terrorist groups, etc. It's a very real and dominating factor in the politics of the region today.

The only circumstances in which these differences take a back seat is when trumped by the battle against Zionist oppressors of Palestine and their patrons the Great Satan. Which is what makes the "Palestine issue" everybody's favorite avoidance behavior.

As for good government, yes, everybody does want good government, but the jury is still very much out on whether the people in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen etc. are going to get it when the dust finally settles on the 'Arab Spring.'

better an arab spring then no arab spring,whether it will work out is as you said still up in the air,but at least leaders have been put on notice.as for iran,you are correct it is a destabilizing force,but hear again the majority of iranians are pro-american,but are shot down like dogs when they try and protest.as far as the 2 major sects their major strife still comes from the 20s,when britain and france carved up the ottoman empire with no regard to tribes or tribal loyalty,it would be like carving uo europe today without any regards for natl. and ethnic groups.but things can turn around peacefully in nations.look at s.africa there was no blood bath when blacks took over after centuries of repression.as for iran the arab world needs to step forward and do its part,we can't always be the cop on the beat.as for palestine,these people were made to pay for the sins of adolf hitler.land that had been in their families for centuries was suddenly lost.while i support the state of israel and its' continued existence.their hands are not exactly clean when it comes to their treatment of the palestinians who deserve a fair settlement also,they never asked to be put in the middle of this.and israsel continue to build settlements in areas on the west bank that are off limits.the mideast is like the balkans anyone that says he has the answers has a screw loose.then again who is western man to criticize these people,70 years ago they managed to kill upwards of 50 million people in eupope during wwii,and at least 30 mil.in wwi.