What would be the fairest system of taxation

Created by Kosmik on Apr 26, 2012

115 votes

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The current version

Flat tax

Fair tax

Apt tax

Something else

No taxation with horrible representation

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Conservative

Springfield, OH

#1 Apr 26, 2012
Ground rules:

We may disagree but that's because we are different with different opinions.

None of us are experts.

Disagreements do not mean one does not respect the other. We just have differing views.
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#2 Apr 26, 2012
Ten questions to ask to determine the Fairest Tax System.

1) Does it make taxes less of a factor in decision-making and reduce social engineering?
2) Does it reduce special interest provisions or "loopholes," and minimize the ability of special interests to seek favors?
3) Does it tax everyone's income at the same rate?
4) Does it end the double and triple taxation of saving and investment?
5) Does it tax business income equally, regardless of organizational form?
6) Does it reduce complexity and make the tax code easier to understand?
7) Does it improve certainty in the tax code?
8) Does it make the U.S. more competitive and attractive for investment?
9) Does it promote economic growth rather than redistribution?
10) Does it improve the stability of revenues?
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#3 Apr 26, 2012
Conservative wrote:
Ground rules:
We may disagree but that's because we are different with different opinions.
None of us are experts.
Disagreements do not mean one does not respect the other. We just have differing views.
Ten questions to ask to determine the Fairest Tax System.

1) Does it make taxes less of a factor in decision-making and reduce social engineering?
2) Does it reduce special interest provisions or "loopholes," and minimize the ability of special interests to seek favors?
3) Does it tax everyone's income at the same rate?
4) Does it end the double and triple taxation of saving and investment?
5) Does it tax business income equally, regardless of organizational form?
6) Does it reduce complexity and make the tax code easier to understand?
7) Does it improve certainty in the tax code?
8) Does it make the U.S. more competitive and attractive for investment?
9) Does it promote economic growth rather than redistribution?
10) Does it improve the stability of revenues?

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#4 Apr 26, 2012
Conservative wrote:
Ground rules:
We may disagree but that's because we are different with different opinions.
None of us are experts.
Disagreements do not mean one does not respect the other. We just have differing views.
Hey, it's my poll I was supposed to say that!!

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#5 Apr 26, 2012
Conservative wrote:
Ten questions to ask to determine the Fairest Tax System.
1) Does it make taxes less of a factor in decision-making and reduce social engineering?
2) Does it reduce special interest provisions or "loopholes," and minimize the ability of special interests to seek favors?
3) Does it tax everyone's income at the same rate?
4) Does it end the double and triple taxation of saving and investment?
5) Does it tax business income equally, regardless of organizational form?
6) Does it reduce complexity and make the tax code easier to understand?
7) Does it improve certainty in the tax code?
8) Does it make the U.S. more competitive and attractive for investment?
9) Does it promote economic growth rather than redistribution?
10) Does it improve the stability of revenues?
All good questions.

I'm about to get off of here for the night. I'll address the IMF working paper as well as your well posed questions tomorrow.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#6 Apr 27, 2012
I voted for the APT tax.

More can be found here:

www.apttax.com

I noticed that to this point most of voted for the fair tax.

While fairtax.org reports that it would be a 23% consumption tax there are those who contend that it would have to be much higher, more like 30%.

http://www.karlonia.com/2007/04/16/fair-tax-p...

The prebate concept of the fair tax would essentially put every holder of a social security number 'on the government dole' That would create another governmental layer to deal with getting the prebate money out each month to everybody.

Just something to get the thoughts on this going, I was up late and it's early for me, need more coffee before I attempt any more.
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#7 Apr 27, 2012
On the surface they appear very similar. I haven't fully digested the APT TAX as of yet. I'm going back and forth between sites examining related items from each.

A rough estimate is that they both have the same goal ending with the same results, it's method of arriving at that is different.

My concern in the APT TAX and I haven't gotten to their explanation is the TRANSACTION TAX on the market.

I know you want to address the IMF paper but as you know all papers come with a disclaimer at the beginning (CYA) but their is not a paper or piece of research that one could not say, they had a dog in the fight or were predisposed to their conclusion.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#8 Apr 27, 2012
Conservative wrote:
On the surface they appear very similar. I haven't fully digested the APT TAX as of yet. I'm going back and forth between sites examining related items from each.
A rough estimate is that they both have the same goal ending with the same results, it's method of arriving at that is different.
My concern in the APT TAX and I haven't gotten to their explanation is the TRANSACTION TAX on the market.
I know you want to address the IMF paper but as you know all papers come with a disclaimer at the beginning (CYA) but their is not a paper or piece of research that one could not say, they had a dog in the fight or were predisposed to their conclusion.
I'm doing just as you at the moment. I've been reading the IMF paper. The one thing that is standing out to me in it is that it only attributes changes in the market to the implementation of an FTT. No other conditions are considered. Normal fluctuations aren't accounted for. As well, it's not painted a picture of consistency in market reaction.
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#9 Apr 27, 2012
Kosmik wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm doing just as you at the moment. I've been reading the IMF paper. The one thing that is standing out to me in it is that it only attributes changes in the market to the implementation of an FTT. No other conditions are considered. Normal fluctuations aren't accounted for. As well, it's not painted a picture of consistency in market reaction.
The IMF would be more concerned with the market. It is the biggest factor that drives the economy. The market crashes, everyone crashes.

I don't think one can plan or determine normal fluctuations. The market is like the weather. Anything can happen if an unexpected produces itself.

The last few years bear out the inconsistency of the market.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#10 Apr 27, 2012
Conservative wrote:
<quoted text>
The IMF would be more concerned with the market. It is the biggest factor that drives the economy. The market crashes, everyone crashes.
I don't think one can plan or determine normal fluctuations. The market is like the weather. Anything can happen if an unexpected produces itself.
The last few years bear out the inconsistency of the market.
With the market being all that important causes the paper to be deliberately deceiving as it is blaming a minute fee or tax for a much larger change.

Upon further reading, the past observances and forward projections aren't consistent with what their charts show.

This will be a long, in depth and hopefully very civil debate.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#11 Apr 27, 2012
Interesting, educational discussion folks, keep it up.
Mr and Mrs

Howell, MI

#12 Apr 27, 2012
6was9 wrote:
Interesting, educational discussion folks, keep it up.
7% income tax on all, 7% corporate tax, 0% on Capitol Gains.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#13 Apr 27, 2012
Mr and Mrs wrote:
<quoted text>
7% income tax on all, 7% corporate tax, 0% on Capitol Gains.
Cain's 9,9,9 plan wouldn't get the job done, 7,7,0 will only put us deeper in the hole.
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#14 Apr 27, 2012
Kosmik wrote:
<quoted text>
With the market being all that important causes the paper to be deliberately deceiving as it is blaming a minute fee or tax for a much larger change.
Upon further reading, the past observances and forward projections aren't consistent with what their charts show.
This will be a long, in depth and hopefully very civil debate.
Of course it will be civil. I may disagree with some of your premises as you, me but that's the way it should be.

The only problem with a forum is the inability to see the face of another to see their reactions or to hear the tenor of their voice to detect attitude.
Spookneverdies

Detroit, MI

#15 Apr 27, 2012
Flat tax rate of 4 percent no value added tax inventory tax or sales tax at federal level and no tax deductions or credits. Simply 4 of net profits or payroll (income) . Then cut all spending so that 4 percent covers it.
Spookneverdies

Detroit, MI

#16 Apr 27, 2012
Oh and no income tax on non residents of a municipality and allow property owners to vote only on levies or bond issues in places the do not live.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#17 Apr 27, 2012
Conservative wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it will be civil. I may disagree with some of your premises as you, me but that's the way it should be.
The only problem with a forum is the inability to see the face of another to see their reactions or to hear the tenor of their voice to detect attitude.
If it's any consolation, Big Brother is probably watching us. He doesn't speak to me, I don't know if he contacts you.

Since: Sep 10

Columbus, OH

#18 Apr 27, 2012
Spookneverdies wrote:
Oh and no income tax on non residents of a municipality and allow property owners to vote only on levies or bond issues in places the do not live.
Definite yes to the first part, taxation without representation, let's see, I've heard that somewhere before...

On the surface I agree with your statement about property owners only but I also favor allowing those who rent to vote with the stipulation that they absorb the cost of any property tax increase through raised rent.
Spookneverdies

Toledo, OH

#19 Apr 27, 2012
Kosmik wrote:
<quoted text>
Definite yes to the first part, taxation without representation, let's see, I've heard that somewhere before...
On the surface I agree with your statement about property owners only but I also favor allowing those who rent to vote with the stipulation that they absorb the cost of any property tax increase through raised rent.
I didn't say only land owners. Example I own land in a school district where I don't live yet I have to lay taxes to a school via property tax and have no vote just a fn bill for a school I can't use.
Conservative

Springfield, OH

#20 Apr 27, 2012
Kosmik wrote:
<quoted text>
If it's any consolation, Big Brother is probably watching us. He doesn't speak to me, I don't know if he contacts you.
I don't know if it's big brother for sure because I hear voices all the time.
I do agree 100% that the other thread you started is not to prove someone wrong it's to present differing ideas (perhaps) and for change let everyone walk away with more information.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

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