Israeli troops begin Gaza pullout as Hamas declares cease-fire

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usinfantryMOS11c wrote:

The big problem is when Hamas fires mortars from schools and other populated areas. And then when the IDF returns fire, they get the blame pinned on them for killing civilians that the Hamas were using as basically human shields. Anyone who has been in Artillery and or Mortars like my self an MOS 11c Indirect fire Infantryman could explain how return fire to an enemy mortar is dealt with. However I wont go into full detail, I just leave it basic. When an enemy mortar is firing on a friendly mortar position you have only seconds to react before lives are lost, mind you if the mortar fire is accurate, and thank G-d hamas doesn't know how to properly adjust for fire, nor do they use any sort of aiming stakes. Anyways, you have only seconds to a minute to return fire. No small time mortar platoon has a clue what they are firing into, it just doesn't happen, its not like they have google maps on hand to say...."hey lets not return fire Hamas is in that school over there 3 miles from us." Being a mortar man or artillery man means that 9 times out of 10 you never see the target unless you direct lay on it. Direct lay is when you do see the target and you line your sight on it, and then adjust the elevation depending on how many yards away the target is. So its usually a rough guess when direct laying a target. However when a call for fire comes in, it is first sent from a fire control station to the platoon FDC or Fire Direction Control, then the order is given for fire. This order will explain to the mortarmen or artillerymen exactly what type of round to fire, how many rounds to fire, and what charge is to be set, and also what the deflection and elevation need to be set at. The norm for responding to enemy mortar fire since also 9 times out of 10 the estimated area of the incoming fire is rather sketchy, is a 10 rnd FFE, also known as a 10 rnd Fire for Effect. In which all mortars in the section or guns in a battery will fire, 10 rnds as fast as they possibly can downrange towards the target.
Hamas, however doesn't even follow any sort of doctrine on how to operate its mortars. They just blindly fire, with no orders, no coordinates, no aiming stakes into populated areas, with the sole intent of killing civilians and or military.
Maybe if Hamas started following rules as set in the Geneva conventions, or at least followed a set of rules laid out by who ever lays out these military ideas people wouldn't see them as badly.
If they would establish themselves as an actually military and not a terror organization, I would actually see know problem with them fighting for what they believe in. But however they fail to understand that even in war, as gruesome as it may seem and what also seems like total anarchy there is actually a lot of structure and rules going on behind the scenes.
I do not in the slightest bit support Hamas's actions, however as I stated if they announced their selves as an actual military unit, and started turning their war against the IDF, instead of the people of Israel, then there would be no problem in this. It would just be a standard war, fair and square, and nothing more.
But by not following these rules of war and these doctrines Hamas has become a Terror group. And so basically there is no honor to them nor what they stand for.
There!! A topic related post.

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Eran Levi - Israel wrote:

<quoted text>
You take one incident, a terrible accident according to everyone you might ask, who's details are not entirely clear. One incident highly covered by a media circus of the press...
One incident, does not make a country responsible for war crimes.
Do you deny Hamas's extensive official policy of using civilians as human shields, and civilian infrastructure to assimilate their militant component into?
Are you denying such a strategy is the main cause for the exceptionally large number of civilians hurt through this operation and others in recent years?

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NaNa wrote:

I'm not challenging Israeli courts, I'm challenging YOU.
You said they were all incarcerated for terrorist activity, plotting murders, etc.

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Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
Yeah, we know we can trust the Israeli justice system...
"Arab citizens have not forgotten the massacre of 49 men, women and children by a unit of soldiers who enforced a last-minute curfew on the Israeli village of Kfar Qassem in 1956, executing the villagers -- Arabs, of course -- at the checkpoint one by one as they innocently returned home from a day’s work in the fields.
During their trial, the Haaretz newspaper reported that the soldiers received a 50 per cent pay increase and that it was obvious the men were “not treated as criminals but as heroes”. Found guilty of an “administrative error”, the commander was given a one penny fine."
"Nor was anyone held to account when six unarmed Arab citizens were shot dead by the security services in the Galilean town of Sakhnin in 1976 as they protested against another wave of land confiscations that deprived rural Arab communities of their farm land. The prime minister of the day, Rabin again, refused even to launch an investigation."
Many more found here.....
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/Headlines/How-Is...

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NaNa wrote:

You call Palestinians terrorists without differentiation

NaNa wrote:

you make blanket judgements about our entire culture and society

NaNa wrote:

and cry "anti-semite/Jew hater/trying to demonize Israel/terrorist supporter" everytime anyone disagrees.

NaNa wrote:

You behave in this way like a child, and of poor argument...

So why shouldn't I be here?
Because I think you're weak?

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Eran Levi - Israel wrote:

<quoted text>
I want you to know I take it as a personal insult that after so many months of debates you assume I would lie about something I saw/read in the mainstream media.
Despite my best attempts to find an English version of the article, I could not. However I will provide a link to the Hebrew version, translate the list of profiles, and you can validate it with any other Hebrew speaking person on this thread or elsewhere:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-37834...
"These are the women who were released for a life sign from Gilad Shalit and the charges pressed against them:
1. Iyat Kissi - attempted murder, was destined for release in november 2009.
2. Rojina Riad Muhammad Janjra - attempted murder and conspiring for committing a crime, was destined for release in June 2011.
3. Rima Abu-Ayisha - membership and the grant of service to an illegal organization. was destined for release in November 2009.
4. Haba Asad Halil Al-Natshe - attempted murder, was destined for release in March 2011.
5. Abdallah Halil - Violence towards a soldier and possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on December 2009.
6. Mimuna Jabrin - attempted murder and a possession of a knife for malicious intent, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
7. Jihad Abu Turky - attempted murder, possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on May 2010.
8.Braah Malky - attempted murder, was destined to release on October 2010.
10. Fatma Yunes Zach - unauthorized military training, unlawful possession of fire arms, attempted murder. Arrested 'till the end of procedures.
11. Nivin Halil Abdallah Dokah - attempted murder, was destined to release on January 2010.
12. Kafah Bachash - violence towards a soldier, was destined to release on July 2010.
13. Abu Golmy Yusef Lenan - attempted murder, unlawful possession of fire arms. was destined to release on September 2010.
14. Shirin Mhummad Hasan - attempted murder, was destined to release on April 2010.
15. Sanaa Hajajra Salah - attempted murder, possession of a knife for malicious intent.
16. Sbahanah Ziaad Muhamad Manal - attempted murder and possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on November 2010.
17. Hamdan Abed Jihad Zuhoor - attempted murder, was destined to release on may 2011.
18. Bahid Ahmad Yusef Hiham - membership and employment in an illegal organization (Islamic Jihad), was destined to release on May 2010.
19. Nahada Farahat Daarah - violence towards a soldier, possession of a knife for malicious intent, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
20. Najuaa Abed Al-Jani - membership and employment in an illegal organization, violations against civil order, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
All in all 14 are charged with attempted murder, a few others on violent assault of soldiers and a couple or more on membership in a terrorist organization.
Certainly a team who's release to be celebrated in the streets of every civilized society.

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Allen wrote:

Read the Talmud to understand why the Zionist Parasites are demented Savages!!
Sanhedrin 59a
To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Libbre David 37
A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them.
Zohar, Toldoth Noah 63b
When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves.
Mas. Shabbath 31b
On the house of the Goy [Goy means unclean, and is the disparaging term for a non-Jew] one looks as on the fold of cattle.
Tosefta, Tractate Erubin VIII
When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.
Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156
If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth.
Zohar, Vayshlah 177b
That the Jewish nation is the only nation selected by God, while all the remaining ones are contemptible and hateful.
That all property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples. An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality towards people of other tribes. He may act contrary to morality, if profitable to himself or to Jews in general.
A Jew may rob a Goy, he may cheat him over a bill, which should not be perceived by him, otherwise the name of God would become dishonoured.
God's "Chosen"??
Our only friends in the Middle East??
http://rense.com/general86/talmd.htm

Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
Being a 'tube carrier' doesn't make you an authority on artillery tactics, nimrod.
We've alreay ascertained that you've never been in combat, so your military opinions are meaningless.
Like the rest of your life!

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Eran Levi - Israel wrote:

<quoted text>
I want you to know I take it as a personal insult that after so many months of debates you assume I would lie about something I saw/read in the mainstream media.
Despite my best attempts to find an English version of the article, I could not. However I will provide a link to the Hebrew version, translate the list of profiles, and you can validate it with any other Hebrew speaking person on this thread or elsewhere:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-37834...
"These are the women who were released for a life sign from Gilad Shalit and the charges pressed against them:
1. Iyat Kissi - attempted murder, was destined for release in november 2009.
2. Rojina Riad Muhammad Janjra - attempted murder and conspiring for committing a crime, was destined for release in June 2011.
3. Rima Abu-Ayisha - membership and the grant of service to an illegal organization. was destined for release in November 2009.
4. Haba Asad Halil Al-Natshe - attempted murder, was destined for release in March 2011.
5. Abdallah Halil - Violence towards a soldier and possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on December 2009.
6. Mimuna Jabrin - attempted murder and a possession of a knife for malicious intent, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
7. Jihad Abu Turky - attempted murder, possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on May 2010.
8.Braah Malky - attempted murder, was destined to release on October 2010.
10. Fatma Yunes Zach - unauthorized military training, unlawful possession of fire arms, attempted murder. Arrested 'till the end of procedures.
11. Nivin Halil Abdallah Dokah - attempted murder, was destined to release on January 2010.
12. Kafah Bachash - violence towards a soldier, was destined to release on July 2010.
13. Abu Golmy Yusef Lenan - attempted murder, unlawful possession of fire arms. was destined to release on September 2010.
14. Shirin Mhummad Hasan - attempted murder, was destined to release on April 2010.
15. Sanaa Hajajra Salah - attempted murder, possession of a knife for malicious intent.
16. Sbahanah Ziaad Muhamad Manal - attempted murder and possession of a knife for malicious intent, was destined to release on November 2010.
17. Hamdan Abed Jihad Zuhoor - attempted murder, was destined to release on may 2011.
18. Bahid Ahmad Yusef Hiham - membership and employment in an illegal organization (Islamic Jihad), was destined to release on May 2010.
19. Nahada Farahat Daarah - violence towards a soldier, possession of a knife for malicious intent, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
20. Najuaa Abed Al-Jani - membership and employment in an illegal organization, violations against civil order, arrested 'till the end of procedures.
All in all 14 are charged with attempted murder, a few others on violent assault of soldiers and a couple or more on membership in a terrorist organization.
Certainly a team who's release to be celebrated in the streets of every civilized society.

Ize Lost wrote:

<quoted text>
Uzi is right. A 1,2,3 knockout punch. No fair. She's expecting.:):):) But watch the evasion. The diversion. I really like her, but like Poobah, she's clueless. Not her fault.

Ize Lost wrote:

Oh, I forgot. She did offer an apology if you submitted proof. The translation problem is hers. I believe you. I thought proof was impossible, but you delivered. If these wonderful women were released in this country, there would be no public display of joy. It probably wouldn't even make the papers. They'd be so ashamed. Maybe they would celebrate in a Mosque in Chi Town, but not outside. Again, great job. Pom Poms for you, right in Poobah's face. Even he can't help.