Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Voluntarist wrote:

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No I am asking you to specifically point out a document that would clearly lead one to believe that wtc 1,2 , or 7 were built to collapse straight down.
All buildings came down in the path of most resistance at such a rate to defy common sense never mind physics.

rabbee: well if you want to read, all the national and local building codes involved for high rise construction. since you have more than just building codes to deal with. and to find the specific codes in force at that time. and to take the necessary college courses, in physics, mathmatics, structural and civil engineering. well then, knock yourself out. the college in question, will let you know what text books you need. and even have integrated courses, for the code books. to become, a certified engineer. and even teach terminology, so that you can understand what other engineers are talking about.

and without any prerequisite knowledge, there is no point in trying to discuss this with any one. there is just too much territory, in even math and physics to be covered here. and i seriously doubt, you have ever even seen, any kind of national code book. or taken any test, for any engineering certification.

and since you have already, discounted anything i have said. then go study all of this for yourself, in some school of your choice. i am not being paid, to be your baby sitter or college professor. and in fact, i have no desire to even teach again. i have no intention, of being glorified baby sitter again. especially with anyone, who only knows how to insult others. so go do that, to your teacher. and see how, he likes it.

Voluntarist wrote:

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Your answer is non responsive never.mind that it wasnt even directed to you.
Have you studied the okc bombing? Do you believe that the box truck with explosives caused that much damage?

rabbee: oh! come on. this is so far off the topic, it is no longer even worth discussing. i am not even all that interested, in how stupid people can be in that particular direction.

so what do you think, about why messianic jews say: they are persecuted in Ysrael. and just why do you think, G-D would allow that to happen, to these alleged innocent jews?

cause if you want to discuss, 9/11 i am sure they have a message thread for this somewhere. and spare us, your attention deficit disorder.

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i aleady knew the truth about why 9/11, and other castatrophes happen. before any of them, actually happened. and i am opposed, to pissing G-D off evem more.

just so that we can all have, more fun with castrophes. i don't view them, as a fun source, of false wittness entertainment. i am not partial, to anything that results in more pestilence, plague and fanine.

M 114 wrote:

Firstly there was no country named Palestine to be occupied by Israel.
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Secondly if there were such a land and they fought against Israel and lost, then it is common for land to be lost as retribution for losing a war.

Ans.

Then all that Bilfour Declaration and League’s decision to allow Britain to manage the land was fake?

I did not know that!!

And since when the winning in war becomes justification for permanent occupation and if one party has won thru war, the other can try to win it back.

So why should Israel complain about the struggle by Palestinians?

It does not make any sense, does it?

MAAT wrote:

It must be where you live, nat geo, discovery, dramatized this and that....you couldn't move a step without some movie or documentary.
i'm glad we can leave that behind us.

But still got killing on your mind now do you MUQ.

hundreds of Arabs have been arrested that did have intent and action to commit terror-acts.
It's not the jews or zionists that set the worlds teeth on edge.

it's greedy Arabs and their fascist fundie dream that fuck it up for the rest of us.

It's the 21 st century here in the west, we can't help it that you are still living in your middle-ages, but we had decidedly different things in mind for the new century, and not some sodden back to the burqa morals and what should and could have been long resolved land-disputes.
If you throw people out because you support the wrong site in a worldwar with 50 million dead, then what do you expect!

Now you are just trying to keep that artificial hate burning, it's sick!

I still see no specks, so lay of any remarks about the issue.

Ans.

You arrest Arabs and do nothing to solve the root cause of the problem is dismantling Israel from Palestine, if you do not solve the root problem, how things will improve.

What is so great about living in 21st century? The same statements were made when 14th or 18th or 20th Century started.

The standards of truth and falsehood do not change when one enters 20th or 21st century.

Our body functions in the same way in 21st century as it was doing in 1st century, so why you do not change that and start walking on your hands instead of your feet, because you are in 21st century?

Men and women had different roles to play in society in 1st century as well as in 21st century or 25th century.

If you muddle with that and try to create “artificial equality” between sexes, it is not going to work, it will backfire on you people.

You cannot fight against the nature.

And you will say that I did not answer your Question!!

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
Thermite and thermate.although related are obviously different.
Anyway samples werr tested, results were positive.

That's tricky.
Given that concrete contains rebar and sulphite and even barium salts, gypsum also good for extracting sulphite , than we have loads of alluminum, and really hot temperatures, compared to some with the vulcanic ashcloud and the compression heat.
So it's a chicken egg problem.
You could look up barium in concrete to prevent rusting of rebar.
or barium and sulphate to prevent corrosion by rebar due to salt moist air. barium-sulphate a.s.o.
Effect of salt moist air on alluminium when in close contact with carbonized steel and sulphate containing concrete and gypsum and what happened if it all reduced to samll particles.

First things first, you stated that buildings were designed to fall straight down, please give me someroof that wtc 1,2 Or 7 was designed to fall straight down.

No the statement was that it was designed to fall just about i it's footprint. The three double floorzones would make that possible.
Wtc did make a twist, but never the less did fall in it's footprint.

The short answer is quite simply that they are not trees.

December 31, 2011

Statement by the President on H.R. 1540

Today I have signed into law H.R. 1540, the “National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012.” I have signed the Act chiefly because it authorizes funding for the defense of the United States and its interests abroad, crucial services for service members and their families, and vital national security programs that must be renewed. In hundreds of separate sections totaling over 500 pages, the Act also contains critical Administration initiatives to control the spiraling health care costs of the Department of Defense (DoD), to develop counterterrorism initiatives abroad, to build the security capacity of key partners, to modernize the force, and to boost the efficiency and effectiveness of military operations worldwide.

The fact that I support this bill as a whole does not mean I agree with everything in it. In particular, I have signed this bill despite having serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists. Over the last several years, my Administration has developed an effective, sustainable framework for the detention, interrogation and trial of suspected terrorists that allows us to maximize both our ability to collect intelligence and to incapacitate dangerous individuals in rapidly developing situations, and the results we have achieved are undeniable. Our success against al-Qa’ida and its affiliates and adherents has derived in significant measure from providing our counterterrorism professionals with the clarity and flexibility they need to adapt to changing circumstances and to utilize whichever authorities best protect the American people, and our accomplishments have respected the values that make our country an example for the world.
--
I see no other option, since that bill is one solid chunck, purposely done so ofcourse, so anyone would find their back against the wall, or go for an entire new slug-it-out in congress.
Never ending filibustering by the republicans.
We saw the same happen here in holland when certain laws where fused so as to get more money from everybody and less possibilities to protest officially or by way of the courts. And with the excuse that it would be less bureaucracy.

MUQ you asked me if i minded you posting a report on 911.
I replied the more technical the better.
Well nothing ever came. So I wrote no piece by MUQ, Still nothing by MUQ when responding mainly to voluntarist.
Instead you take it to mean any piece on anything MAAT might have ones written...so i can't denie it's a piece, but definitely not what we where on about.
On the other hand i find it humouristic and applaud the sense of obligation you felt.

34741
We had no intention of having the civil rights revoked or reducing the planet in no go zones or to be spending another half a centrury fighting archaic role-models or the repressed standards of a religion dominated backward culture that thinks to crusades have to be revenged right now.

Your rationale of blaming Israel is ridicoulous.
Since we see small 'palestines'with the equaly ridicoulous demand of 'give up this part of your country now, because we live in it now, and want nothing to do with you. Which usually starts with those muslims killing and chasing the original locals away.
OBL gave them a new boost, but first al-banna and his greater arab ideas and 'palestinians as a try out. The international court was insane ofcourse, giving everybody entitlement of nationhood after living together with more or less the same ideas for 25 years. I suppose they never ever thought of the consequences of imperialists taking advantage of this, since no muslim is really sovereign, the religion forbids that.

TRANSCENDING THE DUALITY:

Where good exists, there bad is always found. Bad cannot be exceeded by dwelling in the good forever since after a time the presence of the bad pulls at the good in a battle for supremacy and as a result the perpetual play of the opposites begins once again leading to wear and tear and a crash of the system. So, to exceed bad, one has to also exceed good and enter into a region where the play of the forces is not based on the law of the opposites but is a reflection of the unified principle with complementarity as its dynamic theme.

MUQ no piece from you (on 911) so i started answering the ridiculously long post by m114, at least part of it.
So you are responding to the responces i allready made to 114. And ending:
You are right, how we can compare oranges with apples.

The ONLY thing in favor of Jewish And Christian Scriptures is that they were written before Quran was revealed.

@. So unless we prove that prior to revelation of Quran, no one spoke lies, no one tampered with any religious scriptures and all the mistakes are discrepancies we find in these scriptures are from God…. We have no ground to stand on.

Is THAT what you are trying to convey, My dear Sir?

And then you8 will say that I did not answer any of your questions!!
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We can compare apples to oranges: i would say in any discussion i had with Xians (or muslims) that throw their textual and grammatically abrogated and transformed version of the hebrew book in the mix, i would say that they have no trouble at all declaring their version far superior and the actual real word from god.

@. I would say it's all a matter of believe as long as it's not rankpulling or leading to wholesalemurder and suicide because of the claim of being more real than the oldest thing or older version that went before.
But textual comparison as science is purely done with having usually honesty in mind, to get to a better understanding, proper dating a.s.o

You could even argue that the christian version of the gospel as is now, is younger than the quraan.
As before they would say that the torah was made up in the year 1000CE, and would call it the excuse of the jews for killing baby jesus.
So they would have the gospel first, than torah and tanakh and then quraan. Or even pile them together.(I do not expect sanity from these kind of fundies)

You might ask the same of 114, and hear her opinion on the matter.

MAAT wrote:

<quoted text>

That's tricky.

Given that concrete contains rebar and sulphite and even barium salts, gypsum also good for extracting sulphite , than we have loads of alluminum, and really hot temperatures, compared to some with the vulcanic ashcloud and the compression heat.
So it's a chicken egg problem.
You could look up barium in concrete to prevent rusting of rebar.
or barium and sulphate to prevent corrosion by rebar due to salt moist air. barium-sulphate a.s.o.
Effect of salt moist air on alluminium when in close contact with carbonized steel and sulphate containing concrete and gypsum and what happened if it all reduced to samll particles.

So, what's your contention, fool?

MAAT wrote:

MUQ no piece from you (on 911) so i started answering the ridiculously long post by m114, at least part of it.
So you are responding to the responces i allready made to 114. And ending:
You are right, how we can compare oranges with apples.
The ONLY thing in favor of Jewish And Christian Scriptures is that they were written before Quran was revealed.
@. So unless we prove that prior to revelation of Quran, no one spoke lies, no one tampered with any religious scriptures and all the mistakes are discrepancies we find in these scriptures are from God…. We have no ground to stand on.
Is THAT what you are trying to convey, My dear Sir?
And then you8 will say that I did not answer any of your questions!!
----
We can compare apples to oranges: i would say in any discussion i had with Xians (or muslims) that throw their textual and grammatically abrogated and transformed version of the hebrew book in the mix, i would say that they have no trouble at all declaring their version far superior and the actual real word from god.
@. I would say it's all a matter of believe as long as it's not rankpulling or leading to wholesalemurder and suicide because of the claim of being more real than the oldest thing or older version that went before.
But textual comparison as science is purely done with having usually honesty in mind, to get to a better understanding, proper dating a.s.o
You could even argue that the christian version of the gospel as is now, is younger than the quraan.
As before they would say that the torah was made up in the year 1000CE, and would call it the excuse of the jews for killing baby jesus.
So they would have the gospel first, than torah and tanakh and then quraan. Or even pile them together.(I do not expect sanity from these kind of fundies)
You might ask the same of 114, and hear her opinion on the matter.

So according to you ANYTHING that is written before becomes the TRUTH automatically, and anything that is written afterwards becomes the copy or falsehood?

This is a very strange criterion that I heard so far.

Then what we have to say in cases where Christian teachings are different from OT teachings. Who is to be followed, Christian teachings or OT teachings?

Because according to your criterion, since OT books were wrutten earlier, they become ABSOLUTE TRUTH and Christian writings came after that so they become FALSEHOOD as such.

Boy you live in a strange world!!

Or this criterion is ONLY to be used for Quran and not before Quran?

Boy you people do live in a strange world!!

messianic114 wrote:

<quoted text>
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1. Early church fathers which we can date to as early as 105 AD quoted from the NT, therefore it existed and there is no reason to think it was in oral form only.
>>sourc the history written by Eusebius earliest dat 330 CE
.
Where is your evidence? You continue to make assertions without evidence. Here is my evidence:
The First Epistle of Clement,(literally, Clement to Corinth; Greek: &#922;&#955;&#942; &#956;&#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#8056 ;&#962; &#922;&#959;&#961; &#953;&#957;&#952; &#943;&#959;&#965; &#962;, Kl&#275;mentos pros Korinthious) is a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth. The epistle is dated customarily to the end of the reign of emperor Domitian, that is 95 or 96 AD. It ranks with Didache and the Gospel of Thomas as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, of extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/First_Epistle_of_Clem...
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Do you actually have anyone saying that this document is from the 4th century?
.
The earliest extant fragment of the New Testament is the Rylands Library Papyrus P52, a piece of the Gospel of John dated to the first half of the 2nd century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
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2. We have a fragment of the gospel of Mark in the DSS fragments which is dated at 68 AD.
>>>We don't, we have fragments that are in dispute.
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Anyone can dispute anything especially when they don't like the implication of what admitting something to be true is for them.
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Hace these disputers any idea what else the fragment can be of? No.

Last thing first...they are so fragmented, that they can't make head or tail of it. Read really critically and not just websites that endorse your points, i've usually read a lot of xtian apologetic crap first, so as to understand how tey interpret and twist information. That helps in understanding some posters here.

^' fragment of Marc found!

Ryland papyri there are more, but don't bother me i would say.
Some have to do with jewish proselysing, or where gnostic thus declared pagan by the church, and now hailed as earliest prove on the gospel...i declare them thieves and hypocrites.
I looked into all of it, groundtext and scholarly texts, and cursed as loud as any scholar confronted with effin romanized greek (not just one amazonbook thus), and i know for a fact that you think oral history is proof even if it was just your vicar in the sermon last sunday, and that church-history is entirely true, and that you have trouble comparing sources to get to the bottom of an issue in dispute. That you usually do not even post sources.
And you get unendlessly confused when i post things that seem to favour your position, just because you do not get the research, or in effect what research is about.
Opinion is for people that shy away from facts, and that is my firm opinion. lol

There might (make that absolutely) be way more points, but it is such a gargantuan mix you dished here, that i'll just leave it.

Did you even look at the issue/line/thread: first codex sinaiticus, XUIU, name jesus not found?

I'm not doubling work.

This is why scripture is not the measure of truth.

Learn about dating...possible earliest concept and possibly latest time of writing.
Distinguish between attributed date and real date, carbon date, or the paper they have in front of them.
Apologetics will often say that scholars talk about a late copy but that the actual time it was first conceived must have been 2 months and 3 days after christ died...just to make it obvious how silly those claims are.
Given that they can't even pin down when he lived.
In the case of clement we have people writing each other before they where even in the place and other oddities. Church-history thus as put in writing by eusebius.

Chrestians -servants/slaves

MAAT wrote:

Learn about dating...possible earliest concept and possibly latest time of writing.

Distinguish between attributed date and real date, carbon date, or the paper they have in front of them.

LOL.

Dating by any method does not prove the authenticity of scripture nor the veracity of its teachings.