Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

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#34747
May 5, 2012
 

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TRANSCENDING THE DUALITY:

Where good exists, there bad is always found. Bad cannot be exceeded by dwelling in the good forever since after a time the presence of the bad pulls at the good in a battle for supremacy and as a result the perpetual play of the opposites begins once again leading to wear and tear and a crash of the system. So, to exceed bad, one has to also exceed good and enter into a region where the play of the forces is not based on the law of the opposites but is a reflection of the unified principle with complementarity as its dynamic theme.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34748
May 5, 2012
 
MUQ no piece from you (on 911) so i started answering the ridiculously long post by m114, at least part of it.
So you are responding to the responces i allready made to 114. And ending:
You are right, how we can compare oranges with apples.

The ONLY thing in favor of Jewish And Christian Scriptures is that they were written before Quran was revealed.

@. So unless we prove that prior to revelation of Quran, no one spoke lies, no one tampered with any religious scriptures and all the mistakes are discrepancies we find in these scriptures are from God…. We have no ground to stand on.

Is THAT what you are trying to convey, My dear Sir?

And then you8 will say that I did not answer any of your questions!!
----
We can compare apples to oranges: i would say in any discussion i had with Xians (or muslims) that throw their textual and grammatically abrogated and transformed version of the hebrew book in the mix, i would say that they have no trouble at all declaring their version far superior and the actual real word from god.

@. I would say it's all a matter of believe as long as it's not rankpulling or leading to wholesalemurder and suicide because of the claim of being more real than the oldest thing or older version that went before.
But textual comparison as science is purely done with having usually honesty in mind, to get to a better understanding, proper dating a.s.o

You could even argue that the christian version of the gospel as is now, is younger than the quraan.
As before they would say that the torah was made up in the year 1000CE, and would call it the excuse of the jews for killing baby jesus.
So they would have the gospel first, than torah and tanakh and then quraan. Or even pile them together.(I do not expect sanity from these kind of fundies)

You might ask the same of 114, and hear her opinion on the matter.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

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#34749
May 5, 2012
 

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MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>

That's tricky.

Given that concrete contains rebar and sulphite and even barium salts, gypsum also good for extracting sulphite , than we have loads of alluminum, and really hot temperatures, compared to some with the vulcanic ashcloud and the compression heat.
So it's a chicken egg problem.
You could look up barium in concrete to prevent rusting of rebar.
or barium and sulphate to prevent corrosion by rebar due to salt moist air. barium-sulphate a.s.o.
Effect of salt moist air on alluminium when in close contact with carbonized steel and sulphate containing concrete and gypsum and what happened if it all reduced to samll particles.
So, what's your contention, fool?
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

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#34750
May 5, 2012
 
MAAT wrote:
MUQ no piece from you (on 911) so i started answering the ridiculously long post by m114, at least part of it.
So you are responding to the responces i allready made to 114. And ending:
You are right, how we can compare oranges with apples.
The ONLY thing in favor of Jewish And Christian Scriptures is that they were written before Quran was revealed.
@. So unless we prove that prior to revelation of Quran, no one spoke lies, no one tampered with any religious scriptures and all the mistakes are discrepancies we find in these scriptures are from God…. We have no ground to stand on.
Is THAT what you are trying to convey, My dear Sir?
And then you8 will say that I did not answer any of your questions!!
----
We can compare apples to oranges: i would say in any discussion i had with Xians (or muslims) that throw their textual and grammatically abrogated and transformed version of the hebrew book in the mix, i would say that they have no trouble at all declaring their version far superior and the actual real word from god.
@. I would say it's all a matter of believe as long as it's not rankpulling or leading to wholesalemurder and suicide because of the claim of being more real than the oldest thing or older version that went before.
But textual comparison as science is purely done with having usually honesty in mind, to get to a better understanding, proper dating a.s.o
You could even argue that the christian version of the gospel as is now, is younger than the quraan.
As before they would say that the torah was made up in the year 1000CE, and would call it the excuse of the jews for killing baby jesus.
So they would have the gospel first, than torah and tanakh and then quraan. Or even pile them together.(I do not expect sanity from these kind of fundies)
You might ask the same of 114, and hear her opinion on the matter.
So according to you ANYTHING that is written before becomes the TRUTH automatically, and anything that is written afterwards becomes the copy or falsehood?

This is a very strange criterion that I heard so far.

Then what we have to say in cases where Christian teachings are different from OT teachings. Who is to be followed, Christian teachings or OT teachings?

Because according to your criterion, since OT books were wrutten earlier, they become ABSOLUTE TRUTH and Christian writings came after that so they become FALSEHOOD as such.

Boy you live in a strange world!!

Or this criterion is ONLY to be used for Quran and not before Quran?

Boy you people do live in a strange world!!

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34751
May 5, 2012
 
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
1. Early church fathers which we can date to as early as 105 AD quoted from the NT, therefore it existed and there is no reason to think it was in oral form only.
>>sourc the history written by Eusebius earliest dat 330 CE
.
Where is your evidence? You continue to make assertions without evidence. Here is my evidence:
The First Epistle of Clement,(literally, Clement to Corinth; Greek: &#922;&#955;&#942; &#956;&#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#8056 ;&#962; &#922;&#959;&#961; &#953;&#957;&#952; &#943;&#959;&#965; &#962;, Kl&#275;mentos pros Korinthious) is a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth. The epistle is dated customarily to the end of the reign of emperor Domitian, that is 95 or 96 AD. It ranks with Didache and the Gospel of Thomas as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, of extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/First_Epistle_of_Clem...
.
Do you actually have anyone saying that this document is from the 4th century?
.
The earliest extant fragment of the New Testament is the Rylands Library Papyrus P52, a piece of the Gospel of John dated to the first half of the 2nd century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
.
2. We have a fragment of the gospel of Mark in the DSS fragments which is dated at 68 AD.
>>>We don't, we have fragments that are in dispute.
.
Anyone can dispute anything especially when they don't like the implication of what admitting something to be true is for them.
.
Hace these disputers any idea what else the fragment can be of? No.
Last thing first...they are so fragmented, that they can't make head or tail of it. Read really critically and not just websites that endorse your points, i've usually read a lot of xtian apologetic crap first, so as to understand how tey interpret and twist information. That helps in understanding some posters here.

^' fragment of Marc found!

Ryland papyri there are more, but don't bother me i would say.
Some have to do with jewish proselysing, or where gnostic thus declared pagan by the church, and now hailed as earliest prove on the gospel...i declare them thieves and hypocrites.
I looked into all of it, groundtext and scholarly texts, and cursed as loud as any scholar confronted with effin romanized greek (not just one amazonbook thus), and i know for a fact that you think oral history is proof even if it was just your vicar in the sermon last sunday, and that church-history is entirely true, and that you have trouble comparing sources to get to the bottom of an issue in dispute. That you usually do not even post sources.
And you get unendlessly confused when i post things that seem to favour your position, just because you do not get the research, or in effect what research is about.
Opinion is for people that shy away from facts, and that is my firm opinion. lol

There might (make that absolutely) be way more points, but it is such a gargantuan mix you dished here, that i'll just leave it.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34752
May 5, 2012
 
Did you even look at the issue/line/thread: first codex sinaiticus, XUIU, name jesus not found?

I'm not doubling work.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

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#34753
May 5, 2012
 

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This is why scripture is not the measure of truth.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34754
May 5, 2012
 
Learn about dating...possible earliest concept and possibly latest time of writing.
Distinguish between attributed date and real date, carbon date, or the paper they have in front of them.
Apologetics will often say that scholars talk about a late copy but that the actual time it was first conceived must have been 2 months and 3 days after christ died...just to make it obvious how silly those claims are.
Given that they can't even pin down when he lived.
In the case of clement we have people writing each other before they where even in the place and other oddities. Church-history thus as put in writing by eusebius.

Chrestians -servants/slaves
JOEL PASTAKIA

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#34755
May 5, 2012
 

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MAAT wrote:
Learn about dating...possible earliest concept and possibly latest time of writing.

Distinguish between attributed date and real date, carbon date, or the paper they have in front of them.
LOL.

Dating by any method does not prove the authenticity of scripture nor the veracity of its teachings.
JOEL PASTAKIA

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#34756
May 5, 2012
 

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MAAT wrote:
Given that they can't even pin down when he lived.
Where and when did Adam or Abraham live?

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34757
May 5, 2012
 
Double post M114 pg 1618
The point was stated: after reading all this (which is not even 1/3 of all killing for jesus , or in his name. or by his command) as prove of the love f jesus , why would anyone still go for it.

And the other points could be found in the different threads as forwarded by Liam R and one named by me.

In this case G-d is involved as G-d raised his incarnate body from the dead.
.
<I am not ignorant of the mystery of the God of the Bible. However, He is the God of the children of Israel.>
>>again liam points out the mutual cevenant Deuteronomie.

You are obviously ignorant of the fact that G-d is the G-d of the whole world and of all peoples. He will even take from them priests. Below is one of many verses.
.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
.>> The whole hebrew book uses the past tence.
nation are directly involved nations, and there world means the nations named, which point to people and geographical locations.
This passage again refers to the exodus passage moses aharo and naming from the levites, in this case of those coming back from exile.

All the aspiration of worldwide domination only came with christianity, and abolishing the torah, a child of israel has to be circumcised, the food-aws followed. Well that was no more.
I still maintain that in judaim one is free to question everything, even if jesus was following the law.
To then concluding that he did not.
It's simple, you follow the tenets and philosophy or you follow the tenets of another religion.
Those christian ones prevail for messianics. You are the christian first, jewish second, as in my christanity is superior for i have a closer connection to the torah or some such reasoning.
Which would be like stating that you now have the truly accurate translation of the torah and tanakh, though put in the future tense, so as to make jesus possible.
To me it's as if you are using the hebrew book as an apology, to be whisked away under the sofa as soon as a christian enters your house.
Replacement theology is all it is, because where you live it's more respectable aand less dangerous to be a christian.
Jewish-messianics are considered to be quite confused. Dithering would be the word.
Maybe it has more to do with circumstances and we might simply find that they are christian, but for reasons of citenship or some such notion.
MUQ

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#34758
May 5, 2012
 
TO: MAAT, this series is dedicated to you- MUQ

Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method, Dr. Steven E. Jones Part-0 (Introduction- by MUQ)

A. 9/11 a Special Day:

1. September 9, 2001 (9/11 hereafter) was a very remarkable day. It was indeed a day that changed the world. It was a day when the emotions, the patriotism, the bigotry, the hate, the prejudice of many people got over them and they behaved in a very emotional way.

It was indeed a day, on which many laws were broken deliberately or unknowingly. Events which were very improbable and near impossible were accepted as “matter of fact”.

2. People were shocked what they saw in front of their TV screens…. And they were in the same “dazed” state when the “tidal wave” of “news readers”“News analysts” and “experts” appeared from every where, as we see frogs crocking everywhere after heavy rains. They convinced these “dazed” millions that this event took place exactly in the way they saw on TV.

Most people in West, who have “child like” faith in the accuracy, neutrality and exactness of their print, and electronic media took all that heavy dose of propaganda like a medicine and now are so much “cured” that to consider any other possibility is Anathema to them.

B. Plotters Overdid their Job!

3. I think that plotters of 9/11 overdid their job, they wanted to perfect a plot, which was already perfect!! And in doing so they committed blunders!! They forgot that there are basic laws of Physics, Chemistry, Material Science and even common sense!!

What I want to say is, why they had to bring down those WTC towers to their bases? The TV footage was already perfect. Two highest buildings in NY were hit by hijacked jets, scores of people had already died, billowing smoke from WTC Towers was enough to demand retribution and strike by US army and its forces. Most US people would have supported any Government action against those responsible for these cowardly attacks.

5. But these plotters wanted to make the act look like a gala show, pictures of falling WTC towers like a pack of cards would forever be etched in the memory of those who were in front of their TV sets. And this “Grand Finale” has become the source of all their problems!

C. Professional were also watching TV:

6. There were many professionals, watching that fall, scientists, civil engineers, Fire Engineers, Structural Engineers…..and many more (some Terrorists too!!)….. after the initial shock their professional curiosity was aroused and they wanted to explain the fall of WTC towers based on scientific laws and theories…

7. It was here that they got their biggest shocks…..they could not explain almost free fall of three Towers due to a single strike and jet fuel fire !! It seemed that either the laws of physics were wrong or something fishy was there.

D. Tight Lips and Cover Up by Investigating agencies:

8. They got another shock, when they approached Government Investigating agencies to explain their observations and findings. In a free, democratic and scientific society, the agencies would have welcomed this opportunity and tried to explain their views. But they either ignored these requests or refused to comment.

This showed that there was a very high level of coverup by Government and that is how this movement of knowing truth about 9/11 was started.

9. I have serialized a few such reports showing that fall of WTC Towers could not have happened due to a simple jet strike.

MUQ

Saudi Arabia

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#34759
May 5, 2012
 
I know it hurts many people, because it shakes their “faith” in the “neutrality, truth, and unbiased view during reporting” of their Media and also the nature of their Government officials and official investigating agencies.

But truth must be told, otherwise people coming 50 or 60 years after us, will question us, as to why we let allow our emotions to get above our scientific built up. Why we accepted the views of “White House and NIST” without checking it and that too, when we were informed that there is some thing wrong in these reports?
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

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#34760
May 5, 2012
 

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"A dog bites because it lives a dog’s life."

Russian saying
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

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#34761
May 5, 2012
 

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"A dog bites because it lives a dog’s life."

Russian saying

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34762
May 5, 2012
 
MUQ (any opinion is the writers own and is not based on any actual real events etc. topix takes to responsibility for ... etc.)wrote:
So according to you ANYTHING that is written before becomes the TRUTH automatically, and anything that is written afterwards becomes the copy or falsehood?

This is a very strange criterion that I heard so far.

Then what we have to say in cases where Christian teachings are different from OT teachings. Who is to be followed, Christian teachings or OT teachings?

Because according to your criterion, since OT books were wrutten earlier, they become ABSOLUTE TRUTH and Christian writings came after that so they become FALSEHOOD as such.

Boy you live in a strange world!!

Or this criterion is ONLY to be used for Quran and not before Quran?

Boy you people do live in a strange world!!
-----
Nah you do.

To clarify. Each book has it's own content.
That content differs from other books even when they claim to be about the same events, or refer to persons or the god involved.
The torah and tanakh do not mention any person as named in the gospel nor any person or god as mentioned in the quraan.
To anyone reading this, it would look cut and dried. So the hebrew book has nothing to do with books of other religions. It's the truth of a particular people.
Yes, full score. Since by the time of completion none of the other existed.

But then this person talks to Xians, muslims, bahia's, messianinics and they all claim that they are having the ownership of that hebrew book.
The translatons being more original and true than the original. The god described is theirs, angels etc. are theirs.
And THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
They kill each other to find out who's absolute is more absolute.

So i could not care less, but for those weird claims. That need f.i. time-travel , but that others simply call fraud without paying authorship.

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#34763
May 5, 2012
 
To simplify it even more.
The old testament, a term derisive in itself, since for jews it's still actual, aimed to replace the hebrew book.
The content differs on crucial points, and even here you could follow countless discussions of christians and messianics claiming that they knew better what was written than native hebrew speakers. usually ending is calling the jew a liar because he does not choose for the superior christ.(of all the idiotic things, but that is fundies for you)

It's the same with those that claim the translations and thus interpretations of the quraan are superior to the original (grin, we differ there, i know) that will get you rather upset.

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#34764
May 5, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
I know it hurts many people, because it shakes their “faith” in the “neutrality, truth, and unbiased view during reporting” of their Media and also the nature of their Government officials and official investigating agencies.
But truth must be told, otherwise people coming 50 or 60 years after us, will question us, as to why we let allow our emotions to get above our scientific built up. Why we accepted the views of “White House and NIST” without checking it and that too, when we were informed that there is some thing wrong in these reports?
By all means, it's a good one. The dutch produced HD version was used most as illustration.
Officially they are called: The 9/11 comittee. NIST. FEMA.
Those are the reports in contention.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#34765
May 5, 2012
 
34763
Just to clarify the fundies position:
The NT is free of error.
Its Gods Holy Book and God protects it from error.

by sceptic.

So this is the position of messianics too.
So jews have to contemplate whether yhvh is the same god. And if so, did jhvh go browsing through available litterature, and decided to choose this one, and so made it Holy and thus inerrant.

Muslims wonder if Allah is that same god, also doing a revvy on books etc.

And christians wonder since they learned that book was devinely inspired i.e. is honour of god, but who is god. is jesus meant in this case. And does in honour of god, automatically mean inerrant.
or just that the text is set or supposed to be seen as set from here on.

What sceptic meant ofcourse is that it is more true than any other book. That there are no mistakes, and every statement the absolute truth.
Even when it means interpreting former books entirely out of context.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#34766
May 5, 2012
 
Where is my boy Former?

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