Is torture legal!

I can't believe you two, ok JBT and TNT let me try to persuade you. First off, WMD's, back in 2006 Sen. Santorum and Rep. Hoekstra announced the discovery of over 500 rounds of sarin and mustard gas projectiles. That same year Nazar Nayuf a syrian journalist who defected named 3 sites in Syria which he claims are storeing Saddams WMD's(Foxnews 21jun06) this has not been indepently confirmed but Israeli intellegence thinks those same weapons may be in the Sudan by now.
Saddam and Al Quada, in 2004 U.S. forces captured documents that showed the efforts of Saddams regime to work with various terror orgs. and to train these same orgs.(Al Quada included) inside his borders(CNSnews 4Oct04) These same documents confirm the aquisition of 5kgs of mustard gas and 3 vial of anthrax.
British intelligence still stands by their belief that Saddam was actively trying to aquire yellow-cake uranium and building centrifuges for a nuclear weapons program.
As far as building 7 goes the Nat. Inst. of Standards and Technology ruled out a controled demolition and attributed its collapse to fires and debries from the North Tower.
It took us 4yrs to defeat Hitlers military vs. 1mth to take out Saddams army we occupied Germany until 1949 dureing that time we tracked down and destroyed armed resistance from SS troops(werewolves)that could not accept surrender and reeducated or denazified the population. We also kept permanant bases and as of today still have 58,000 troops stationed there, we also have 50,000 troops in Japan by the way.
Yes we did support Saddam aginst Iran we often make a choice between evils in order to further U.S. intrsets just look at our current election for proof of that.
As for the Geneva convention you convently left out article 4 which tells who is entitled to their protections, only U.S. citizens are entitled to constutional protections despite what you may believe.

Semper Fi

I will agree with you that tasers are torture and that the Patriot act, the Dept. of Homeland Security, and TSA should not exist.

Thel wrote:

<quoted text>
Check your history, pal. Doesn't change the fact that he was supported by the CIA and funded by US dollars.

What exactly is your point? Please don't tell me your trying to say America conciously supported and funded torture. Are u saying the funding was given for the purpose of torture? That is what we are supposed to be discussing, if not what does that have to do with the here and now? Please make sense and stay on topic! Sounds to me like you are simply a very angry, bitter person. Evil exists and this monster called terrorism and war is going to play out like it or not! You either deal with it and support your country or keep blaming and bitching or leave!

poppaT wrote:

I can't believe you two, ok JBT and TNT let me try to persuade you. First off, WMD's, back in 2006 Sen. Santorum and Rep. Hoekstra announced the discovery of over 500 rounds of sarin and mustard gas projectiles. That same year Nazar Nayuf a syrian journalist who defected named 3 sites in Syria which he claims are storeing Saddams WMD's(Foxnews 21jun06) this has not been indepently confirmed but Israeli intellegence thinks those same weapons may be in the Sudan by now.
Saddam and Al Quada, in 2004 U.S. forces captured documents that showed the efforts of Saddams regime to work with various terror orgs. and to train these same orgs.(Al Quada included) inside his borders(CNSnews 4Oct04) These same documents confirm the aquisition of 5kgs of mustard gas and 3 vial of anthrax.
British intelligence still stands by their belief that Saddam was actively trying to aquire yellow-cake uranium and building centrifuges for a nuclear weapons program.
As far as building 7 goes the Nat. Inst. of Standards and Technology ruled out a controled demolition and attributed its collapse to fires and debries from the North Tower.
It took us 4yrs to defeat Hitlers military vs. 1mth to take out Saddams army we occupied Germany until 1949 dureing that time we tracked down and destroyed armed resistance from SS troops(werewolves)that could not accept surrender and reeducated or denazified the population. We also kept permanant bases and as of today still have 58,000 troops stationed there, we also have 50,000 troops in Japan by the way.
Yes we did support Saddam aginst Iran we often make a choice between evils in order to further U.S. intrsets just look at our current election for proof of that.
As for the Geneva convention you convently left out article 4 which tells who is entitled to their protections, only U.S. citizens are entitled to constutional protections despite what you may believe.
Semper Fi

Great job.Nice Post.
Thel should take note and stop flapping her gums and start backing her garb with actual facts instead of talking in circles.
My little brother is on his second tour in Iraq as a Marine, and do you think I'm happy about it. Yes, it sucks, it's horrifing watching the news, we can't do it. But you don't hear me bitching about who made what mistake or who is right and who is wrong. He is at peace with the work he is doing and that's all I can focus on. Last tour he told us when he got home he lost 2 good friends from his unit, an RPG(I think thats what it's called if not someone will correct) landed 3 ft from him and by the grace of God did not explode, and one truck behind his carring his fellow Marines blew up and that could easily have been him. So shut up and support this country!

u talk in circles wrote:

<quoted text>What exactly is your point? Please don't tell me your trying to say America conciously supported and funded torture. Are u saying the funding was given for the purpose of torture? That is what we are supposed to be discussing, if not what does that have to do with the here and now? Please make sense and stay on topic! Sounds to me like you are simply a very angry, bitter person. Evil exists and this monster called terrorism and war is going to play out like it or not! You either deal with it and support your country or keep blaming and bitching or leave!

If you want to talk about the US supporting torture, that has nothing at all to do with the funding of Saddam and Osama. The US supports torture by using it against so-called Islamic terrorists.

Thel wrote:

<quoted text>
Check your history, pal. Doesn't change the fact that he was supported by the CIA and funded by US dollars.

And I repeat....So what's your point? You don't seem to have one with this comment.

Im sorry but if pouring water up someone nose can effectively retrieve information that will prevent a murderous attack like 911, which it did, I say more power to them. Islamic terriorist are never going to stop or suddenly have a change of heart. So are we to just sit back and be peaceful and not retaliate and keep getting attacked until they take over? Do you have any better solutions Thel?

I aint playin wrote:

<quoted text>I thought you opened up the bible, obviously not. Correction---Muslims are decendants of Ismael. Remember him Thel? Bastard child of Abraham and his Egyptian maidservant Hagar, conceived as a result of Abraham's unbelief.Gen 16. Gen. 16:11-12, "And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
'Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son,
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because thee Lord had heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man's hand against him.
And he shall dewell in the presence of all
his brethren.'
To answer your question--What do you think Jesus would say about torturing Muslim? Let see....How about Romans 13:1-4---"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgement on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afriad; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
The Word is still opened, got any more questions?

AGAIN

Used2BConcerned wrote:

I ain't playin,
Good job on your last post. It amazes me how some people try to show their Bible literacy and mess it up. Do you remember when Al Gore was running for president in 2000? He wanted to quote "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." which is John 3:16. Instead he referred to John 16:3 which reads, "And they will do this because they have not known the Father or Me."
One other thing. What did Jesus do to the merchants who were selling their goods in the temple?

He threw a fit!!Matt. 21:13 I guess Thel didn't feel like reading that one either. Here's another one of you Thel. What was your quesion? WWJD?

1 Samuel 15:2-3
"Thus says the Lord of hosts:'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Eqypt.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nurshin child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
I can't help but wonder if I had the time to trace the geneology if I would find Amalek's decendents to be the Islamic terrorist's that you defend. If we dig deeper we'd find a link from Ismael to the Amalekites. Thel maybe you could take on that assignment. But I doubt you will.

Boudreaux wrote:

<quoted text>And I repeat....So what's your point? You don't seem to have one with this comment.

It was in response to YOUR comment.

I aint playin wrote:

<quoted text>He threw a fit!!Matt. 21:13 I guess Thel didn't feel like reading that one either. Here's another one of you Thel. What was your quesion? WWJD?
1 Samuel 15:2-3
"Thus says the Lord of hosts:'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Eqypt.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nurshin child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
I can't help but wonder if I had the time to trace the geneology if I would find Amalek's decendents to be the Islamic terrorist's that you defend. If we dig deeper we'd find a link from Ismael to the Amalekites. Thel maybe you could take on that assignment. But I doubt you will.

As I recall, Jesus was without sin, which makes him a little more credible to throw a fit and punish the wicked. I'm pretty sure the Bible has strong words about people thinking they can judge others, however. I guess if you think you heard God speak directly to you and say you should torture possible terrorists, but then I'd just call you a lunatic.

Besides ALL of this... if Christians want to interpret the Bible to mean torturing anyone is okay, it's just as despicable of a religion as you all probably think Islam is. Any religion that supports violence of any kind against others is disgusting, so please, keep showing me more Bible passages that support violence against others and I will keep believing organized religion is evil.

Religious justification for torture is just as weak as any other justification. The fact is, the information gotten from torture of any kind is not reliable enough to make it worth hurting potentially innocent people.

Thel wrote:

Besides ALL of this... if Christians want to interpret the Bible to mean torturing anyone is okay, it's just as despicable of a religion as you all probably think Islam is. Any religion that supports violence of any kind against others is disgusting, so please, keep showing me more Bible passages that support violence against others and I will keep believing organized religion is evil.
Religious justification for torture is just as weak as any other justification. The fact is, the information gotten from torture of any kind is not reliable enough to make it worth hurting potentially innocent people.

I wonder if your opinion would have been different if it had been you on on the hijacked plane, you'd probably be screaming for Jesus to save you louder that anyone. And when the 5 passengers fought back would you have been saying "Come on you guys, violence isn't the answer. Let's try to reason with them." But you weren't there were you? enjoy your comfortable nonviolent life. I've got to email my little brother in Iraq and make sure he stays clear of the suicide bombers. One thing he has shared with us is that he's never experienced the power of prayer in his life like he has there, and tells us to keep praying, it's obviously working.

I aint playin wrote:

<quoted text>He threw a fit!!Matt. 21:13 I guess Thel didn't feel like reading that one either. Here's another one of you Thel. What was your quesion? WWJD?
1 Samuel 15:2-3
"Thus says the Lord of hosts:'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Eqypt.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nurshin child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
I can't help but wonder if I had the time to trace the geneology if I would find Amalek's decendents to be the Islamic terrorist's that you defend. If we dig deeper we'd find a link from Ismael to the Amalekites. Thel maybe you could take on that assignment. But I doubt you will.

dont bother, not that u would.. i got it for you.....In exodus 17...Because the Amalekites, who were descendants of Esau, whom God hated, attacked the Jewish people, God promised to be at war with Amalek from genereation to generation.
Then the Lord said to Moses,'Write this for a memorial in the book and recount it in the hearing of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."
hundreds of years later-
In 1 Samual because saul refused to obey the Lord, God took the kingdom from him and gave it to another. The judgement on Saul was instantaneous, because he refused to carry out God's judgement against those who had attacked the Jewish people. ch 28:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent."

Thel wrote:

Besides ALL of this... if Christians want to interpret the Bible to mean torturing anyone is okay, it's just as despicable of a religion as you all probably think Islam is. Any religion that supports violence of any kind against others is disgusting, so please, keep showing me more Bible passages that support violence against others and I will keep believing organized religion is evil.
Religious justification for torture is just as weak as any other justification. The fact is, the information gotten from torture of any kind is not reliable enough to make it worth hurting potentially innocent people.

I sure would like to know your solution on to do when the next 9-11 hits the U.S. Shoud we just pass the peace pipe and sing "Give peace a chance"?
Ill tell you what the terrorist would do mid song...
Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in evry strategem
Surah-9:5
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger,is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile form the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy unishment is theirs in the Herrafter;
--Surah 5:33

But we are the bad ones for waterboarding.

Thel wrote:

<quoted text>
As I recall, Jesus was without sin, which makes him a little more credible to throw a fit and punish the wicked. I'm pretty sure the Bible has strong words about people thinking they can judge others, however. I guess if you think you heard God speak directly to you and say you should torture possible terrorists, but then I'd just call you a lunatic.

REPEAT!!
To answer your question--What do you think Jesus would say about torturing Muslim? Let see....How about Romans 13:1-4---"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgement on themselves.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afriad; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

You don't support biblical authority or your nations government... What are you?

http://www.camerairaq.com/2004/05/nick_berg_v...
HERE'S TORTURE IF YOU WANT SOMETHING TO BE ANGRY ABOUT.

I support my nation's government, I just disagree with some of their policies and would like to see those reformed. And certainly, were I on a hijacked plane and I saw a chance to fight back, I would. I am not naive enough to preach complete pacifism.

I'm not even saying we shouldn't combat terrorists. My objection is to TORTURE, and that's it. I'm not a pacifist, I just don't believe torture produces reliable information.

But it did produce reliable info in the recent waterboarding issue that was since banned after being leaked and after retrieving valuable info that helped the U.S. stop a planned attack on our soil, and saved who knows how many innocent people. The man that was subjected to it was not innocent, he was a terriorist with serious info. The CIA agent that was there and leaked the info said it took less than five minutes and he gave up the info. I say good job this time /

_This time._ That's the key. Sure, torture produces reliable info when you're lucky enough to nab someone who actually knows something.