OK Health Care Freedom Amendment, State Question 756

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Packing Heat wrote:

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Sorry but Michelle Obama has already won that award but thank you just the same.
First Lady Michelle Obama the "Marie Antoinette of our generation"
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I checked my voting list and none of those people are on it so I really don't care to hear about those sad stories.
I am a rich white male you dufus.

Who Is Obama wrote:

Wow...4 pages of fighting...LoL!
A little on the "illegal" immigration deal...
On Minutes quip about the poor huddled masses yearning to be free...that's for legal immigration...and we should all be for it.
Our armed forces personel are being paid whether they are in another country or sitting in a barrack...so as we downsize our involvement elsewhere they should be put on the border and get it sealed. That solves the argueing 5 years down the road and could serve as a temporary fix.
All illegal immigrants in the country now need to notify immigration authorities of their status and plans. All that have jobs, children, etc., need to be signed up on a program that allows them a way to become legal. The end results of that program should insure that that those in it meet the same requirements as those who would immigrate legally..ie..know the english language, history, etc.
Those who do not sign up (mostly criminals) who are caught later and could not produce evidence of citizenship or show they are signed up for the program would be individualy dealt with on a case by case bases..and deported if waranted.
There are also other issues involved that are rarely mentioned. One of those is the U.S. demand for pot. An economy all it's own... and the disruption of it could have serious repercussions for Mexico as it is one of it's top export products.
For the U.S., decriminalizing or legalizing and taxing pot accordingly would make sense. The system is already in place for alcohol and could be dealt with along the same lines and laws.
The problem with that is it would cut off a large chunk of cashflow in Mexico. Whether we "care" or not, it would have consequences for us overall.
The solution would have to tackle all these issues and at the same time attempt to prevent undesirable or unforseen results.
If a good and successful workfare type program was implemented in such a way that Mexico (as well as any other country) could replicate it also, it may be possible to deal with illegal immigration, border control, the pot problem, and unemployment all at the same time.
Work, leisure, raisng kids, and the affordability of basic life necesities for it's citizens should be the goal of any good government. A solution should consist of elements of both free market capatilism and socialist ideals... and both should be set up in such a way that both compliment each other.
Dems and repubs...socialist and capatilist...are two sides of the same coin. The two need to work together on solutions that benefit both sides and as a result all people. It should be where a president is the one who works with both sides to find common ground. He should be above the fray and impartial to his own personal ambitions or agenda and instead place the nation as a whole first. We need a real leader that will bring the sides together....and it's not Obama...and it's not Romney... so all we can do is educate ourselves and demand better in 2016.

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Who Is Obama wrote:

Dusty wrote:
"And I would put every reservist for their active duty obligations training on our borders. Of course that would cost money. But not near as much money as we're still giving to Iraq."
It would cost a hell of a lot less. We don't have a military just during wartime...we have it all the time..so a certain amount of cost is going to be sustained regardless.
But it still isn't a solution. We don't have a problem with illegal canadians crossing the border...we don't have to have one with Mexico either. It comes down to making Mexico a place where mexicans want to be...home. Like canadians. it's in the economics.
Tamara,
They are still the result of the problem...not the problem itself. If Mexico was booming like China or had an economy like Germany we would probably be hardpressed to find a single mexican.

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Justaminute wrote:

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Well those are market forces at work, you know, the Free Market. The market will only pay a certain price for a tomato. That's a fact. And the price that they want to pay is for the worker to be illegal and pick the tomato for $2 a box. And if they raise the price for me, I have to raise the price to the customer because I use a lot of tomatoes. And probably if they paid workers for what it is really worth to pick tomatoes probably I could not sell my food for what it costs me to prepare, labor and all the other costs. Because you know those slices of tomato on your hamburger don't come that way.
Because no matter how funny you think it is, Americans will not pay for their food to be picked, packaged, cooked, and served to them in nice air conditioned or heated places for them at American living wages, health insurance and all the other niceties.
Frankly even your welfare costs for the poor would not meet the amount that they will pay recipients each day for food without illegal aliens picking it. That's why E-verify doesn't even stand a chance.

Who Is Obama wrote:

Dusty wrote:
"And I would put every reservist for their active duty obligations training on our borders. Of course that would cost money. But not near as much money as we're still giving to Iraq."
It would cost a hell of a lot less. We don't have a military just during wartime...we have it all the time..so a certain amount of cost is going to be sustained regardless.
But it still isn't a solution. We don't have a problem with illegal canadians crossing the border...we don't have to have one with Mexico either. It comes down to making Mexico a place where mexicans want to be...home. Like canadians. it's in the economics.
Tamara,
They are still the result of the problem...not the problem itself. If Mexico was booming like China or had an economy like Germany we would probably be hardpressed to find a single mexican.

Packing Heat wrote:

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I hate it you missed it but welcome back. As you may have read, the old cranky fart is mad again but I am really beginning to think it is frustration from not getting any Obama stimulus money for tires on his moped and it is left sitting on blocks but who knows. It could just be his hemmroids too. Great post you dropped off here but not quite sold on letting those that jumped to the front of the line should not have to go to the end of the line. There are others to take their place when all the dust settles and we have time to see if we have enough jobs for them after we get our own unemployment down. But open to discussion, lol, as if we get to decide it.

TAMARA wrote:

<quoted text>So is it our job to police Mexico like we do other countries. Mexico has always lived under a tarrant of rulings.

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Who Is Obama wrote:

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No it's not our job...or at least shouldn't be. Your right. Mexico has a long history of corruption. But instead of policing Mexico we need to show how Mexico can benefit from it's own citizens.

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TAMARA wrote:

<quoted text>Do actually really think after all this time they really care? Do you actually think Mexico is so stupid thay don't know but the government preferrs having it this way with their people. Do you realize that non citizens actually cannot own land in Mexico out right? I heard The Mexican President being interviewed on a visit here in the States and was ask what do you, Mexico, would doif you caught someone in their country illegally and the President said "We send them home". No hesitation in his voice when he said it.

Who Is Obama wrote:

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I know your not sold on it. That's ok.

My contention is that good mexicans will sign up. Bad will not. Bad will get caught eventually. Rounding up families who are good along with the bad would be immoral. It would be a world PR nightmare. I understand your point of view though...the welfare costs, etc. But the solutions will have to be better than locking down the border and deporting 12 million people. It's not realistic.

Who Is Obama wrote:

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Sure they care...the people do.
You are probably thinking I am pro illegal immigration...I'm not. I understand all the causes and results that everyone fights over. But I also know that what seems like a simple solution ...deportation and locking down the border....does not solve the problem. It would acually cause a larger one. I'm not for thousands dying and or starving to death just because we don't want them. I want a border with Mexico...not Sudan.
Try to think about the big picture.
An analogy...
The neighbor has a dog he lets run loose and doesn't feed. So you feed him...and he doesn't leave. Kicking him out of the yard doesn't solve the problem. Show your neighbor how he can earn the money and feed his own dog does.
The problem is not the immigrant himself...it's the economics that caused him to be an immigrant.

Who Is Obama wrote:

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No it's not our job...or at least shouldn't be. Your right. Mexico has a long history of corruption. But instead of policing Mexico we need to show how Mexico can benefit from it's own citizens.

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Who Is Obama wrote:

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I wasn't laughing at the situation....you just didn't include all the other costs involved. I'm not going to list them all.
The free market works best for the tomatoes. And while I agree with the sorry wages..raising the cost of labor still has implications beyond your cost at the plate. It increases the expense...thereby making it more profitable to be grown elsewhere cheaper...at probably cheaper labor costs.
It isn't a solution...because supply and demand will always dictate the price. Raise the price...lower the demand...thereby fewer jobs at any wage. Raising the wage of the picker also raises the price of the tomatoe he buys...and so on... with any product.
A good government workfare program could solve this paradox and keep the cheap tomatoe while also increasing the pickers quality of life. And the best thing about it is that migrants on the program could actually be diserable and profitable to the government and nation as a whole.

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Justaminute wrote:

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What kind of workforce program is going to entice Americans to bend over in the hot sun and pick tomatoes?
Or the rest of crops that need manual labor?
I'm sorry but if Americans had that kind of stamina they wouldn't need a workforce program to begin with.
If you have that kind of stamina in America you can make a really good living on your own. That's why Mexican workers have the edge, it's not cheap wages. While the regulators in Oklahoma keep us lowly restaurants on a tight leash on checking our records and not the big guys so it's too dicey to hire illegals anymore, Hispanic workers that I had in the past can work circles around American workers. Most of my previous Hispanic workers are now American citizens and they own their own businesses now and are doing quite well.
It's worth paying them more because one of them can do the job of 2 or 3 Americans. Because those illegals are smart. They go to work for a business and they usually outperform and hardly complain. You end up paying them more than you would for an American, simply because he was worth it and the American wasn't. Sad but True. And we frankly miss them.

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TAMARA wrote:

<quoted text>Very bad example! The neighbor let his dog run loose, I end up feeding him and I end up keeping the dog and paying to keep him healthy. Been there and done this! More than once. Believe people that will not take care of there pets just flat donot care! People that dump animals flat do not care. They get bored with the cute little baby dog or cat that grows out of the cute stage. Since my husband and I have been married 1961 we have been without a pet maybe 1 i/2 years with out one and most of the time we had 2. Out of all those pets we actually picked 2 out ourself. In fact I have chocolate lab now because her owner we not take of her. I have had her 5 1/2 years. Guess what my gain and her owner's loss. But back to Mexico, The country of Mexico will never ever change. In fact Mexico is probably excited that they are invading this country in out standing numbers.

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Packing Heat wrote:

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I agree it is not our job to police inside of Mexico. I also agree Mexico has a very long history of corruption and absolutely no end in site. Mexico has already shown how it benefits from its citizens.
Ibarra estimates cartels have laundered more than $680 million in the banks of Sinaloa -- which is a financial services backwater -- and that drug money is driving nearly 20 percent of the state's economy. Mexico's lackluster effort to confiscate dirty money is allowing drug gangs and other mafias to flourish.
We will wind up with mafia capitalism here before long if things don't improve. The temporary band-aid if applied properly could at least crush the drug economy but I also understand the unitended result is it could cause a small war on the border with the Mafia Capitalist.
I know I know, before you even say it, even mentioning war and liberal are suddenly in need of a diaper change so that wouldn't work, lol. Well hells bells, I stuck for ideas right now but I do look forward to more debate with you on this issue. Personally I think it is safer if Pedro just keeps picking the tomato but so far only Justaminute is the only one concerned about getting tomato's and it doesn't pay as good as picking weed, LOL.

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Justaminute wrote:

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What kind of workforce program is going to entice Americans to bend over in the hot sun and pick tomatoes?
Or the rest of crops that need manual labor?
I'm sorry but if Americans had that kind of stamina they wouldn't need a workforce program to begin with.
If you have that kind of stamina in America you can make a really good living on your own. That's why Mexican workers have the edge, it's not cheap wages. While the regulators in Oklahoma keep us lowly restaurants on a tight leash on checking our records and not the big guys so it's too dicey to hire illegals anymore, Hispanic workers that I had in the past can work circles around American workers. Most of my previous Hispanic workers are now American citizens and they own their own businesses now and are doing quite well.
It's worth paying them more because one of them can do the job of 2 or 3 Americans. Because those illegals are smart. They go to work for a business and they usually outperform and hardly complain. You end up paying them more than you would for an American, simply because he was worth it and the American wasn't. Sad but True. And we frankly miss them.

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Who Is Obama wrote:

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Tamara...LoL!
It's an analogy...nothing more. You can twist any way you want but the point is still the same...it's economics.
I have done the same with the dogs...I know all about bad neighbors and also stray dogs in general...yes...I end up taking care of them and trying to find them a home...usually at an expense to myself in vet fees. I know your compassionate by your story....it's not the animals fault they are strays or unfed. Try and understand that on a human scale. It's very similiar. I know there are limits to how much a person can do for dogs just like our country can do for illegals....that's why we need solutions and not knee jerk reactions.
Mexico can change...it's not a person. And it will change...everything does. The idea is to nudge it toward change that is beneficial and not damaging to both them and the U.S.

Who Is Obama wrote:

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Sure they care...the people do.

You are probably thinking I am pro illegal immigration...I'm not. I understand all the causes and results that everyone fights over. But I also know that what seems like a simple solution ...deportation and locking down the border....does not solve the problem. It would acually cause a larger one. I'm not for thousands dying and or starving to death just because we don't want them. I want a border with Mexico...not Sudan.

Try to think about the big picture.

An analogy...

The neighbor has a dog he lets run loose and doesn't feed. So you feed him...and he doesn't leave. Kicking him out of the yard doesn't solve the problem. Show your neighbor how he can earn the money and feed his own dog does.

The problem is not the immigrant himself...it's the economics that caused him to be an immigrant.