Calif. Anti-Spanking Bill Passes First Hurdle

If only this law had been on the books back in December, when Michele Henry's 7-year-old son revealed a back criss-crossed with bruises from belt whippings to his school nurse and tearfully pleaded "I don't want to be whipped no more!" Child protection workers visited the home and determined that the boy had been 'spanked' and advised the parents against using a belt. Over the next three months the boy was beaten with a belt until bloody, urinated on by his step father, and burned on his penis and buttocks with cigarettes. The chief of police stated, "This boy was sent home to be tortured."

Every person who supports corporal punishment has tacitly agreed to allow a certain number of children to be tortured, maimed, murdered, and left emotionally crippled for life in order that they might enjoy the benefits of occasionally and mildly spanking their offspring with a little ruler or switch.

There is certainly some historical basis for sacrificing a few people for the sake of the many; as in the case of military service, for example. What is unusual is that the entire cost of spanking freedoms is born on the thin and trembling shoulders of children. Other than abortion (depending on your definition of the beginning of life) I can think of no other instance in which adults have allowed children to be slaughtered on a wholesale basis for the sake of convenience.

The pro-spanking crowd survived their childhoods and made it to adulthood unburdened by the physical and emotional scars of physical abuse. They implement social policies which inevitably condemn other peoples children, and then sooth their consciences by tut-tutting over the tragic results of their selfishness which parade across the T.V. set each and every evening in every town and city in America.

But would Sarah Berke --'dead set against the evil of child abuse' be advocating social tolerance of belting chidren if SHE were the little boy who was beaten until his liver failed, or the little girl who was paddled until her blistered skin peeled from her buttocks in sheets? Would any of the adults who advocate beating children volunteer to change places with the children they condemn? Of course not.

It's easy to decide that the benefits of spanking with a belt are worth the harm when you are not the one who has to pay the price of it. It's easy to implement social policies which inevitably condemn OTHER peoples children, and then sit back on your sofa tut-tut over the tragic results of your selfishness as they parade across the T.V. set each and every evening in every town and city in America.

Sarah Berke, you are a cowardly scoundrel. You are willing to found your civilization on mountains of dead babies, and neither you nor the disgusting pastors and preachers you associate pass for a decent human being in any respect.

It is past time that our society started valuing the lives of children more than they value their convenience and traditions. Thank God for people like Rep. Lieber and others who are actually willing to make sacrifices in their own families to take some of the burden off of kids who have no choice in the matter.

Leave parenting of one's children to the parent. I don't spank my child, however I would not think to tell another parent what is right for their child. Keep Sally Lieber out of my rights as a parent. (Even if I don't choose to spank.)

Wow. What you describe is child abuse not spanking. It is obvious you don't have children by your statement. A swat on the butt with your hand, or a small paddle has worked wonders for years. It has been since the government has tried limiting parents with what they can do to punish their children has society in CA gone to hell. Oh yes there are those FEW who claim spanking when they are not, but don't step on my turf when it comes to raising my children. If this passes, you think kids are bad know, just wait. It will get far worse. I hope the state is ready to spend more money on juvenile facilities and parents having their children declared out of control so they are no longer responsible for what they do.

BeatKid wrote:

If only this law had been on the books back in December, when Michele Henry's 7-year-old son revealed a back criss-crossed with bruises from belt whippings to his school nurse and tearfully pleaded "I don't want to be whipped no more!" Child protection workers visited the home and determined that the boy had been 'spanked' and advised the parents against using a belt. Over the next three months the boy was beaten with a belt until bloody, urinated on by his step father, and burned on his penis and buttocks with cigarettes. The chief of police stated, "This boy was sent home to be tortured."
Every person who supports corporal punishment has tacitly agreed to allow a certain number of children to be tortured, maimed, murdered, and left emotionally crippled for life in order that they might enjoy the benefits of occasionally and mildly spanking their offspring with a little ruler or switch.
There is certainly some historical basis for sacrificing a few people for the sake of the many; as in the case of military service, for example. What is unusual is that the entire cost of spanking freedoms is born on the thin and trembling shoulders of children. Other than abortion (depending on your definition of the beginning of life) I can think of no other instance in which adults have allowed children to be slaughtered on a wholesale basis for the sake of convenience.
The pro-spanking crowd survived their childhoods and made it to adulthood unburdened by the physical and emotional scars of physical abuse. They implement social policies which inevitably condemn other peoples children, and then sooth their consciences by tut-tutting over the tragic results of their selfishness which parade across the T.V. set each and every evening in every town and city in America.
But would Sarah Berke --'dead set against the evil of child abuse' be advocating social tolerance of belting chidren if SHE were the little boy who was beaten until his liver failed, or the little girl who was paddled until her blistered skin peeled from her buttocks in sheets? Would any of the adults who advocate beating children volunteer to change places with the children they condemn? Of course not.
It's easy to decide that the benefits of spanking with a belt are worth the harm when you are not the one who has to pay the price of it. It's easy to implement social policies which inevitably condemn OTHER peoples children, and then sit back on your sofa tut-tut over the tragic results of your selfishness as they parade across the T.V. set each and every evening in every town and city in America.
Sarah Berke, you are a cowardly scoundrel. You are willing to found your civilization on mountains of dead babies, and neither you nor the disgusting pastors and preachers you associate pass for a decent human being in any respect.
It is past time that our society started valuing the lives of children more than they value their convenience and traditions. Thank God for people like Rep. Lieber and others who are actually willing to make sacrifices in their own families to take some of the burden off of kids who have no choice in the matter.

I spent years as a volunteer counseling and ministering to inmates in jails and state prisons in several states. I spent two years specifically counseling youthful offenders — young men age 14 - 23, who were sent to state prison for their first conviction.

In the state reception center we had around 3000 youthful offenders per year come through the chapel and in all the histories I ever took I never met one kid in prison who was not well acquainted with ‘the belt’.

Extremely harsh corporal punishment is the rule among the violent, deranged, and pathologically antisocial — child molesters, rapists, and murderers, as well as those who make a career out of earning people’s trust and then taking advantage of it.

Corporal punishment is also cited as the most common disciplinary tactic in use in the homes of incorrigible delinquents - those who have records that go back to junior high school, come divided into chapters, and contain dozens if not hundreds of arrests. Whether you believe that those who experience corporal punishment are more likely to become delinquent or that those who become delinquent are more likely to receive corporal punishment, the one thing that is plain is that corporal punishment does not any deterrent at all to further delinquency.

The troubled teens you mention do not come from parents who fail to administer corporal punishment, but from parents who fail to do anything else. In the absence of fellowship, children have no reason to care what their parents think of him or of what he does. The child rightly views any kind of normal spanking as nothing more than a minor assault which he must tolerate until he is old enough to leave home. It inspires about as much fear and respect as a wet-willy or a Charley horse delivered by a playground bully.

At that point the only way you are going to influence his behavior with corporal punishment is to literally beat the child into cowed submission as you would break a slave; the exact act most likely to produce a violent mentally ill sociopath.

If there is any ingredient that is desperately lacking from parents relations with their kids right now, it is certainly not corporal punishment. In fact, a child is almost certainly better off not being beaten by a person who is otherwise completely uninvolved with him. The fact is that if a parent gets everything else right, they can leave out spanking altogether and the kid will be fine. On the other hand, if the parent gets everything else wrong, the belt is not going to fix it.

The Bible says "if you spare the rod, you spoil the child." A "rod" is not the equivalent of a "time-out." It is a spanking. I definitely do not condone child abuse, but there is a difference between a spanking and a beating. The problem in todays society is not spanking; it is a lack of parenting. There are so many children today that are having babies. They can't raise themselves let alone another life. Too many adults today regret the choices they made in life and take it out on their kids. This is the problem. Spanking is used to discipline and provide structure in the lives of the young, so as they grow older they will know right from wrong and hopefully choose the right path.

Assemblywoman Sally Lieber is a stupid idiot that should be spanked for introducing this bill. What an absolute waste of legislature time.

A swat on the bottom is one thing, but to use a spoon or any thing else is child abuse and I think that the bill will address this and people will think twice and give themselves a time out rather than grab the nearest thingwhen their child acts up! I cannot belive some people use sticks,a rod, a switch,an electrical cord, a belt, broom or shoe to spank their children and they still have custody of their kids? Something is wrong with this!

Hmmm let's see... You say that you interviewed/counselled inmates and found out they'd been spanked (now keep in mind that I want to make sure we are talking about spanking and not outright abusing a child; there is a difference). From the latter you draw the conclusion that because they were spanked they became criminals. Hmmm,,, apparently many more good citizens had been spanked and they didn't choose the loser path of being a criminal?
Oh wait I have another theory for you.....I think you would find that at some point in their lives these inmates had orange juice or eaten white bread - ah ha! THAT must be it,,, orange juice and white bread when eaten turns you into a criminal.... Jeesh... It is just the simple minded kind of thinking that individuals like you possess (total lack of critical thought) that is responsible for many of the absurd laws in our society.
I would also question anyone who spends their time counseling prisoners. If you had a shread of decency you would spend that time instead with the families of the women and children that those goons in the pen either killed, raped, tortured, etc. But OH, I can hear you saying,,, those 'poor criminals', poor rapists, poor pedophiles; how twisted must your thinking be to even care to share the time of day with these people. Want to help someone? Then help the families of the victims that the low lifes you speak to tortured and buried.

BeatKid wrote:

I spent years as a volunteer counseling and ministering to inmates in jails and state prisons in several states. I spent two years specifically counseling youthful offenders — young men age 14 - 23, who were sent to state prison for their first conviction.
In the state reception center we had around 3000 youthful offenders per year come through the chapel and in all the histories I ever took I never met one kid in prison who was not well acquainted with ‘the belt’.
Extremely harsh corporal punishment is the rule among the violent, deranged, and pathologically antisocial — child molesters, rapists, and murderers, as well as those who make a career out of earning people’s trust and then taking advantage of it.
Corporal punishment is also cited as the most common disciplinary tactic in use in the homes of incorrigible delinquents - those who have records that go back to junior high school, come divided into chapters, and contain dozens if not hundreds of arrests. Whether you believe that those who experience corporal punishment are more likely to become delinquent or that those who become delinquent are more likely to receive corporal punishment, the one thing that is plain is that corporal punishment does not any deterrent at all to further delinquency.
The troubled teens you mention do not come from parents who fail to administer corporal punishment, but from parents who fail to do anything else. In the absence of fellowship, children have no reason to care what their parents think of him or of what he does. The child rightly views any kind of normal spanking as nothing more than a minor assault which he must tolerate until he is old enough to leave home. It inspires about as much fear and respect as a wet-willy or a Charley horse delivered by a playground bully.
At that point the only way you are going to influence his behavior with corporal punishment is to literally beat the child into cowed submission as you would break a slave; the exact act most likely to produce a violent mentally ill sociopath.
If there is any ingredient that is desperately lacking from parents relations with their kids right now, it is certainly not corporal punishment. In fact, a child is almost certainly better off not being beaten by a person who is otherwise completely uninvolved with him. The fact is that if a parent gets everything else right, they can leave out spanking altogether and the kid will be fine. On the other hand, if the parent gets everything else wrong, the belt is not going to fix it.

Lieber, there are millions of people streaming illegally across our borders each day. Our air is becoming unbreathable. The salmon are gone. The little moth will eat our crops and must be destroyed. Schools are closing. Industries are leaving our state. Our infrastructure is crumbling. And you grab attention by introducing this bill about spanking children. Were you abused as a child? What could possibly be your motivation to waste the state government's time with this crap? Do your job!

I don't believe this bill should pass. Being a parent, it is my right not others to correct the behaviors of my children. No wonder our society/culture is how it is now. Children are out of control. They (children) are dictating parents on how to act rather than the other way around. Parents are scared to discipline their children for fear that they will be turned in by their kids and put in jail. Is this how we want our society to be?
Does Ms Sally Lieber have children? If not, then she should spend some time with some kids, either at her home or out of town.

A CHILD NEEDS A SIMPLE FEAR OF CONSEQUENSE. SOMETIMES 1 GOOD SPANKING IS ALL IT TAKES FOR A CHILD TO RESPECT AND OBEY THE RULES. I SPANKED MY CHILD 1 TIME WHEN VERY YOUNG (HURT FEELINGS MORE THAN ANYTHING) AND THAT WS ALL IT TOOK. MY CHILD KNEW THAT NO MEANT NO, DO IT NOW MEANT DO IT NOW. wAKE UP PARENTS AND RAISE YOUR CHILD TO RESPECT THIS WORLD AND ALL THAT IS IN IT. TOO MANY PARENTS LET THEIR CHILDREN GET AWAY WITH TALKING BACK AND SO MANY OTHER THINGS. THESE ARE THE CHILDREN THAT WILL GROW UP TO BE TROUBLEMAKERS. DISIPLINE YOUR KIDS WITH A LITTLE SPANKING IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES. JUST DON'T GO OVERBOARD LIKE SOME CRAZIES DO!

sally lieber obviously doesnt have a life... sorry to be so judgemental.... how dare the government tell us how to raise our kids and they wonder why the prisons are over flowing.... its the parents job to discipline and train their children to be good law abiding citizens in any way they see fit not the government... look at the developing countries people there are well mannered respectful considerate because these qualities were taught into them as children whether it was a talk to help them understand to gettin a good one for just being stubborn.. hell its happened to me and i learned sometimes by talking sometimes i needed a spanking, we're all human so who doesnt deserve it.... maybe she needs to get her bill spanked in her face to open her eyes... if you care so much about children then stop shutting down schools its embarrasing to out country the super power of the world... we dont need another bush in our white house 30 years from now

I know this post will show from Bloomington, But I live in California. I have lived here almost all of my life, but I am palnning to move to another state.

pat wrote:

I don't believe this bill should pass. Being a parent, it is my right not others to correct the behaviors of my children. No wonder our society/culture is how it is now. Children are out of control. They (children) are dictating parents on how to act rather than the other way around. Parents are scared to discipline their children for fear that they will be turned in by their kids and put in jail. Is this how we want our society to be?
Does Ms Sally Lieber have children? If not, then she should spend some time with some kids, either at her home or out of town.

I would like this stupid lady to live with my son for a month. He was a fairly well behaved kid and YES I spankes him. Then we moved here to the "wonderful" bay area and he learned from elementary school how to work the system. Because of this, he became out of control and when I tried any form of dicilpine, spanking or other, HE threatened to call Child Protective Services. Now my normal fairly well behaved child is out of control and there is nothing I can do about it. And I am sure someone is thinking " Well, he only threatened to call CPS, so you can still dicipline him ". You would think wrong. I grounded him for 3 days and because I took him by the are and put him in his bedroon, he told the school shrink that I abused him and CPS was called.

I think this bill is wrong and if you think kids are out of control now, just wait until this passes. KIds aren't afraid of their parents, educators or even police. Why do you think we hear of so many "gang realted shootings?"

GET OUT OF MY LIFE AND LET ME DECIDE WHAT IS PROPER DISIPLINE FOR MY CHILD.

this is so stupid i cant even shut up lieber u need to control teens having babies maybe pass a law that only a married woman can become a mother that will stop all the welfare funding and CA can restore itself again.... do more in schools rather than shutting them down.... its like they want us to be stupid.... be practical and think for the future.. a wise man plans and saves for the future a foolish man spends what he gets now..... hmmmmm wat category is our legislature in..... u pick

Sorry I wrote a long note and you didn't read it all.

I spoke to instances of abuse in one paragraph and to instances of spanking in another. At no point did I suggest that spanking causes criminal behavior. My point is that criminals are not criminal due to a lack of spanking, but rather due to a lack of parenting.

You raise a good point regarding the need for services to victims -- but assisting young men off the path of violence while there is still hope means that other victims will never come to need those services. Supporting prison ministry is an excellent use of resources; Voluntary participation in religious services is the only form of rehabilitation therapy that has ever proven widely effective in producing life-long change and reduction in recidivism among inmates.

To get back to the point of the article, this law will give prosecutors another way to protect kids who are abused. Many adults have a hard time expressing the difference between discipline and abuse in words; imagine how much harder it is for an young child who is abused with a belt or paddle to contradict the articulate and well thought-out lies and justifications of his abusing parent. This law goes a little ways towards eliminating the ability of abusing parents to hide behind the excuse of corporal punishment. Similar laws have been on the books in Canada for years and have not produced the masses of arrests and blah-blah-blah that people are predicting. Don't beat your kid black and blue and even if you are arrested you'll have nothing to worry about. Consider the night in jail and the fifteen minute bond hearing at which charges are dismissed your civic duty and personal contribution to protecting kids from abuse.

Shaking My Head wrote:

Hmmm let's see... You say that you interviewed/counselled inmates and found out they'd been spanked (now keep in mind that I want to make sure we are talking about spanking and not outright abusing a child; there is a difference). From the latter you draw the conclusion that because they were spanked they became criminals. Hmmm,,, apparently many more good citizens had been spanked and they didn't choose the loser path of being a criminal?
Oh wait I have another theory for you.....I think you would find that at some point in their lives these inmates had orange juice or eaten white bread - ah ha! THAT must be it,,, orange juice and white bread when eaten turns you into a criminal.... Jeesh... It is just the simple minded kind of thinking that individuals like you possess (total lack of critical thought) that is responsible for many of the absurd laws in our society.
I would also question anyone who spends their time counseling prisoners. If you had a shread of decency you would spend that time instead with the families of the women and children that those goons in the pen either killed, raped, tortured, etc. But OH, I can hear you saying,,, those 'poor criminals', poor rapists, poor pedophiles; how twisted must your thinking be to even care to share the time of day with these people. Want to help someone? Then help the families of the victims that the low lifes you speak to tortured and buried.
<quoted text>

what beatkid was talking about, kicking, cigarette burning, etc, are child abuse. Spanking on the other hand, is not child abuse. It's effective when used very rarely, yet state want to outlaw this rare occassion? There's no clear cut in "child abuse", and the state should not introduce a law that will clear-cut this. It's not smart, in fact, it's quite stupid. People in Mountain view should probably think about why voted for sally lieber in the first place. Well, maybe not the next time.

The child I mentioned had been investigated for abuse, but no charges were brought because the parent had 'ONLY' beaten him with a belt. Instead of protecting him, he was sent home to be tortured for another three months. If they had intervened in the first place he would never have been burned 'etc'.

This law is absolutely essential, and will impact abused kids dramatically, both in terms of the prevalence of abuse and in terms of the severity of abuse that they must endure prior to protection services being offered.

I understand you don't like Lieber, but to say that our child abuse laws are already effective when around 1500 children were disciplined to death by their parents last year is not right. A dozen kids were disciplined to death with belts in the last twelve months alone. It is tragic that people feel that the need to spank a child "ONCE" in his childhood with a ruler justifies the deaths of even one child, much less the nearly 10 thousand who have died from these implements in the last 10 years.

If you have a better answer let's hear it.

Loving Parent wrote:

what beatkid was talking about, kicking, cigarette burning, etc, are child abuse. Spanking on the other hand, is not child abuse. It's effective when used very rarely, yet state want to outlaw this rare occassion? There's no clear cut in "child abuse", and the state should not introduce a law that will clear-cut this. It's not smart, in fact, it's quite stupid. People in Mountain view should probably think about why voted for sally lieber in the first place. Well, maybe not the next time.

yes physical, mental, emotional abuse is one thing and those children should say something to someone about it if they have EVIDENCE of bruises or cuts or watever their parents do to them... kids nowadays are to bold for even their parents so whos fault is it that the kids are turning this way? how bout we go to sacramento and find out wat retard is ruining our society. really people just do what u gotta do for our future generations to prosper not fail... this is ridiculous its not enough that we pay taxes, a mortgage, car payment, now u want to take away what is rightfully ours... so this means that america is in a downward spiral people arent going to get better theyre going to get worse imagine the violence the racism the hatred... wow lieber u really went all out.... just let everyone out of prison then what difference will it make when these children grow up, thinking they can say and do watver they want when they dont even know wat life is.... im 25 i dont know much bout the world but i do know that no law or bill or watever someone thinks isnt going to faze me on how i raise MY kids... let them call cps let them be put in a foster home where there is no love or affection... kids dont run this joint and they shouldnt even be thinking or knowing that they do.... the purpose of adults is to teach the student so the student will surpass the teacher not the teacher surpass the student this law is the gateway to violence rebellion vanity my my i can go on forever.... wat kinda future are u looking for lieber... do u really think this nonsense will work or wat? like we dont have enough rebellious kids already, 12 year olds having babys, kids having sex with their teachers, gang violence, these are all signs of lack of discipline and u want to make it better by passing a law where u cant spank ur kids..... ure trippin...

TO BEATKID..... you make the comment "Don't beat your kid black and blue and even if you are arrested you'll have nothing to worry about. Consider the night in jail and the fifteen minute bond hearing at which charges are dismissed your civic duty and personal contribution to protecting kids from abuse.

Unfortunattly is in NOT 15 minutes bond or a night in jail. What planet do you live on? If a parent is arrested for suspected child abuse the kids are removed from the home and put in protective custody. Then there is a LONG LONG court battle trying to prove your innocence. Because people like lieber are taking away parental rights. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD FOR ALL OF THOSE READING........ Lieber does NOT have any children.

Reality: 40% of child abuse allegations are dismissed as unfounded within the first hour of the investigation. And more than 90% of physical abuse charges are dismissed at first appearance due to lack of evidence.

Again, if your child does not have multiple patterned bruises from whipping you have nothing to worry about; and any kid that is left with such marks from spanking deserves to have his cause heard by a jury.

Instead of regurgitating pro-spanking propaganda that delivers kids into the hands of their abusers, take some time to research and THINK about what you are saying.